Panny 1980 vs JVC 9911 vs ???; what's your preference and why?

[videobruce]

I assume the Panasonic industrial AG-1980 was their best low end S-VHS VCR's. I also assume (by reading around) the HR-S9911U was JVC's best consumer VCR.
If the above is incorect, please post otherwise. Anyway, what is you choice and why (for recording and playback of S-VHS tapes to use as a source for a DVD recorder). Did both of these have internal TBC's?

I did find these three dated, but somewhat related threads;
https://forum.videohelp.com/topic368955.html#1974561
https://forum.videohelp.com/topic328283.html
https://forum.videohelp.com/topic287476.html

[victoriabears]

Depends on what your material was recorded on, jvc or panasonic.

The JVC I have found is over aggressive in its enhancements whereas the Panny is more gentle.

[orsetto]

The question folds back upon itself: if you are interested enough in VHS restoration to even know these models exist, you'll quickly discover each does some things the other cannot- neither is preferable 100% of the time and there are tapes one won't play at all but the other will play near-perfectly.

The AG1980 is kind of a one-off model: there is no other Panasonic with exactly its combination of mechanics and TBC/DNR circuit. So with Panasonic, its the AG1980 or pretty much nothing (although there is a very rare tunerless AG1980, model AG5710, which is otherwise the same machine.) The advantage of the Panasonic is transport stability and superior tracking, especially of LP and SLP tapes. It also is the only VCR with a "full frame" TBC, strong enough to lock down some tapes that the JVC can't cope with.

JVC churned out multiple SVHS models with TBC/DNR for years and years, many are comparable and it can get very confusing telling them apart. The much-discussed 9911 is not necessarily the "best" of the JVCs, its merely the final SVHS model that was sold. Mechanically its a cheap piece of crap: the same lame-ass junk VCR they were selling at the time for $99, but with a fancy-looking drop down front panel and the TBC/DNR circuit slapped into it (for an additional $400). When the 9911 works, its quite amazing, but many of them don't work so great anymore and they are difficult to service. The earlier 7000 and 8000 models are far sturdier and somewhat more easily repaired/brought back to spec. The later JVC DVHS models have the updated video processing of the 9911 married to a much-improved tape transport, the best of both worlds. (The Mitsubishi HS-HD2000U is a comparable DVHS model, it marries a decent Mitsu tape transport to a clone of the JVC TBC/DNR circuits.) The advantage of the JVC/MGA units is their TBC/DNR circuit, with its somewhat superior (compared to the Panny) noise-shaping and chroma cleaning. The noise reduction/chroma cleaning can be turned off on the JVC, but is always on (non-defeatable) in the Panasonic: annoying sometimes when the AG1980 noise/chroma filter trips over itself and adds weird artifacts to the image. OTOH, you can turn off the Panny TBC while its DNR remains active, the JVC system joins TBC and DNR together on the same switch so they're always both on or both off.

Anyone with a large number of VHS tapes to digitize should consider owning one of each type VCR (Panasonic AG1980/AG5710 and a JVC SVHS or DVHS or Mitsu DVHS). This is more feasible than it used to be: second hand VCR prices have dropped considerably from two years ago (when you couldn't touch an AG1980 for less than $500). These days, a careful eBay shopper can find clean Panasonic 1980s for $125 and a variety of high end JVCs for under $200. These two VCR designs combined will cover almost any tape issue between them.

[victoriabears]

100% agree - thats why I own both and a SV10u

[videobruce]

All my tapes are recorded in SP. I hardly ever used SLP (or EP if you perfer). When I got my first machine in '78 I use to use LP, but when Panasonic brought out that damn SLP with those narrow heads, I stopped using anything other than SP. All the tapes were recorded on a JVC deck. Either a HR-S5800U or that completely overpriced monster editing deck JVC made (their first and only full editing model with a separate reel motor). I forgot the model number. Terrible PQ just like their first S-VHS-C camcorder the 909.
With my experiance with video, I have always found the best playback was with the deck the tape was recorded on.

Ok, other than the 9911 and the 1980, what older decks would you guys recomend? What did the 1980 have over the 1970? Wasn't there a 1960 (the first of the series)?

BTW, I never was impressed with Mits. Admittly, I never owned one, but i the early 90's the regional appliance/electronics store I work at did sell Mits, but they weren't bg sellers mostly because of price.

[orsetto]

There really isn't anything else to recommend, at least not if you want TBC/DNR. These were always outrageously overpriced features, other than JVC only Panasonic offered them (and then only on perhaps one model every couple years). If ALL your tapes were recorded originally on JVCs, you have less to worry about than most of us, who have tapes made on many different brands. When JVCs fall down, its generally in playback of non-JVC-recorded tapes, so in your specific case you're probably fine with only a JVC 9911 or similar JVC. A deck like the Panasonic 1980 comes in handy for tapes recorded on multiple VCR brands and/or SLP/EP.

A lot of this is subjective, there are differences in the Panasonic and JVC mechanicals and electronics that impart a different "look" when you compare them. So while an AG1980 is unlikely to be necessary for proper playback of a JVC-recorded tape, you may in some cases prefer the image presentation (and vice versa, of course). There are too many possible interactions to list here, but I'll just again note that TBC/DNR does not always result in improvements and can often cause more problems than they solve. It is wrong wrong wrong to think you "MUST have a high end TBC/DNR deck to clean all your tapes or you'll get unacceptable" results." These mfrs are not gods, they made some bonehead engineering choices, and these VCRs were designed long before anyone gave a thought to digitizing VHS: despite our present worship of them, they were not "optimized" for VHS to DVD transfer. Its purely an accident that they are useful on occasion in this process.

The TBC circuit often conflicts very badly with some recordings, creating an unwatchable mess. Same applies to the noise filter circuits. And sometimes the TBC and DNR conflict with each other and a particular tape. Its a roll of the dice every time. With a surprising number of tapes, your choice is between "smooth clear color combined with jitter or false dropouts or other TBC-induced crap", or "all enhancements turned off, image looks like typical noisy VHS but no jittering or other added artifacts". There is no free lunch, and each machine has its Jekyll & Hyde aspects. The JVCs are just all-around rotten VCRs without their TBC/DNR active, those circuits are the only thing keeping JVCs reputation alive. If you're unlucky, and hit a tape that conflicts with TBC/DNR, with a JVC its all or nothing: you can't independently select TBC or DNR in hopes of retaining some improvement. You have to turn both circuits off, which throws you on the mercy of the sub-par basic JVC vcr design.

It is those times when a Panasonic AG1980 can come in handy. It uses a distinctly different TBC design, which will sometimes be compatible with tapes that "don't like" the JVC-style TBC (the reverse being equally true when the JVC trumps the Panasonic). Also, the Panasonic TBC function is independent of its DNR, so if the TBC causes problems you can switch it out and still enjoy noise cleaning (unfortunately noise cleaning cannot be turned off in the Panny, so you can't have TBC-only operation). Subjectively, the noise cleaning in the Panasonic is more subtle and preserves more detail on some tapes than the JVC noise cleaning, which sometimes looks smooth to the point of cotton candy cartoonish. OTOH, the Panasonic DNR has a bad tendency to introduce random bits of herringbone or ladder interference artifacts in parts of the image. Since neither the JVC nor Panasonic systems is perfect, alternating between them is common practice for many of us.

There are of course some other VCRs floating around that can seem of interest, but they aren't as useful. Second-hand pro studio VCRs are very tempting, these are the huge heavy SVHS editing decks that once cost $5000 but now routinely go for $100 on eBay. These are a poor choice because their TBCs are usually missing (they were interchangeable accessory cards, not built-in circuits), the TBCs were not coupled to DNR as found in the 9911 or 1980, and the video heads are not optimized for consumer-recorded tapes. There were several predecessors to the Panasonic AG1980, none of them really comparable. The AG1950 is huge, ancient, and not that good a playback deck. The AG1960 is small, slim, and prone to mechanical issues. The AG1970 looks exactly like the later AG1980, but is completely different internally. Perversely, the AG1970 has superior mechanics but inferior electronics to the AG1980. The 1970 TBC is weak compared to the 1980 or JVC TBCs, and the 1970 noise reduction/color filters are far less effective. However, the AG1970 has far greater range in its picture detail slider, and its TBC and DNR are independently switchable to on and off. The 1970 TBC can fix some rare problems that the 1980 or JVC cannot cope with. Finally, although the overall AG1970 image is much noisier than the AG1980 or JVC, when its output switch is set to "edit" it can provide the most naturally crisp, detailed output I've ever seen from really good pre-recorded or camcorder tapes. An AG1970 can be a great third VCR, but the AG1980 is much more useful as day-to-day companion vcr to a JVC.

There were a couple of top-line consumer Panasonics with TBC and noise filters, the PV-4780 or 4990, I forget the exact model numbers. These are exceedingly rare, fetch insane prices on eBay (more than the AG1980), and date from very bad engineering years in the Panasonic consumer VCR lineup (plastic loading mechanicals, virtually unrepairable when they break, and most are broken: no parts available since 1993). Avoid these.

There is a passionate group of Toshiba VCR devotees who find certain models indispensible. I have tested most of the recommended Toshibas and feel their output is much too noisy and grainy, although they track very well. Only one Toshiba VCR was truly extraordinary, it had a very complex high-performance DNR circuit which can (sometimes) put Panasonic and JVC to shame. This model M784 is worth looking for but very few were sold in USA, its not something that turns up every day on eBay.

The digital HDTV VHS machines (DVHS) from JVC and Mitsubishi perform at the same level as the JVC 9911, but are slightly more desirable for their improved mechanics and better chance of being found in mint condition. The JVC DVHS, such as SR-VD400U, have the same DNR as on the 9911 but the TBC function is buried and not mentioned on the machines or in their instruction manuals. Since they perform as well as a 9911 or 7000/8000, LordSmurf and other JVC experts have theorized they use an "always-on" embedded TBC thats less prone to conflicts than the older TBCs. The Mitsubishi HS-HD2000U is a nice deck with a carbon-copy of the JVC 9911 TBC/DNR, activated by a big green button on the front panel. The Mitsu 2000 DVHS is nothing like earlier Mitsu SVHS or VHS machines, it was Mitsubishi's last hurrah and they put everything they could into it. It is easily found used/mint for $150-200 and at that price is usually preferable to a 9911, for the better mechanics if nothing else. At matching prices, though, pick whatever VCR you prefer most.

Whats left? A couple of big high-end Sonys with impressive drop-down front panels (sister models 1000 and 2000). Forget 'em: atrocious mechanicals, poor tracking ability, horrifying breakdown rate, no TBC or DNR. And maybe the "urban myth" JVC SR-W5U "WVHS" analog HDTV vcr- perhaps the finest VHS player ever made, but vanishingly rare and expensive/impossible to fix. Originally sold for $3000-4000 in Japan, a few made their way to USA and occasionally pop up used for $200-500. These are very fragile, with "daughtercards" handling many functions (the hifi audio is especially prone to shipping damage or misalignment). Like a 1969 Ferrari, very high performance at very high risk of very expensive maintenance.

For most people needing transfer decks, buying a Panasonic AG1980 and a JVC-type VCR (9911, 7000/8000, DVHS, Mitsu) will be the most practical and useful solution.