Cannot complete copy on a Pioneer DVR 650H

[jackdup]

I just starting having a problem burning DVDs on my Pioneer DVR 650H.

You select what you want to copy to the DVD and it starts fine but after only a few seconds it sounds like it is grinding to a halt, then spins up again, and then does the same thing two or three times and then displays a message cannot complete copy.

I tried a lenses cleaner on it which did not help (I assumed it wouldn't).

Has anyone experienced this problem or have any ideas other than replacing the drive?

Does anyone know what DVD writer is in the reocrder? Not sure if it is a standard DVD writer that one would find i a computer or is it a special drive?

Thanks

[Bjs]

Possible issue with "cheap" media ... they dont like some brands... but you have not provided media brands used to confirm the problem.

And no, the drive is not the same as those found in pc's ... similar in operation only.

[jackdup]

In the past I have used numerous brands without ever having a problem. Yesterday I tried Verbatim, Ritek and some cheap Staples DVDs all with the same result, cannot complete copy.

[orsetto]

This is common among all brands of recorders as they age: some do it more gracefully than others, some benefit from cleaning while cleaning accomplishes nothing on others. The Pioneer x40, x50 and x60 series all use a variation of the same custom Sony/Pioneer burner. This burner has proven to be quite durable for most users, and is not usually picky about brands/types of media (it burns almost anything). However, after it reaches a certain age (2-3 years) or burns a certain number of discs (1000+), it loses the ability to handle 16x media, which is the only media you can buy in stores. In comparing notes with other members, it seems the burner follows the same decline path seen in Panasonics: the disc clamp accumulates dust and finger grease until it can no longer grip 16x discs securely during the rollercoaster of speed changes required to initialize, burn and finalize.

There are several ways around this, i.e with the Panasonics, disassembly and careful cleaning of the disc clamp is possible with some effort, and often restores full functionality. Unfortunately the Pioneer/Sony burners are difficult to the point of impossible to disassemble, I would not try this except as a last resort. Another alternative is moistening the bottom of the DVD center hole area with a trace of saliva (okay, "spit") just before loading it for a burn. Lick the tip of your finger lightly and wipe the wet underneath the clear center of the disc. I have found this will provide enough temporary grip for a dirty burner to initialize most 16x media, although not 100% of the time and not with every brand. The third (and easiest) workaround is to stop using 16x media altogether: go online and order some good 8x speed media. I have found Pioneers that refuse any 16x media will burn any 8x media with no problems at all. Look for Taiyo Yuden (TY) 8x, Verbatim DataLife 8x, Sony 8x (if still available): all these should continue to work in a Pioneer that no longer accepts 16x. This is purely a mechanical/speed/grip issue: the laser is still OK and will continue to burn at 8x for a very long time (one of my well-worn Pio 640s lost 16x ability awhile back but has continued burning nearly 900 8x discs since then).

Ideally we should be able to bring a 2 or 3 year old recorder in for factory service at a reasonable cost, and restore full burning ability. Sadly this is not possible: mfrs routinely charge more for a post-warranty burner exchange than what the entire recorder cost in the first place .

[jackdup]

Thanks very much for the info, I'll certainly give that a try.

Are the burners in these units IDE, SATA or some other interface? Have you ever tried installing a DVD burner for a PC, if the drive is IDE or SATA?

Wouldn't you know it I jsut ordered a couple hundred 16x on Friday.

Thanks again

[jackdup]

Well I have to admit I was a little skeptical about the spit idea, but it sured did work. It hasn't burnt a DVD that quietly for some time. There has always been spinning up and an almost grinding noise spinning down and then spinning back up again. With a little moisture as suggested it burned all the way through with no unusual noise.

Thanks again, and I'll order a bunch of 8x DVDs.

[orsetto]

Perhaps you can return or exchange the 16x discs for 8x, if you ordered from a supplier who has both? Even if you take a slight hit on the shipping, its better than being stuck with discs you can't use.

The burner in the Pio 650 is SATA on the burner end but EIDE on the motherboard: an odd hybrid connection. There is no way to replace it yourself, it is a special custom burner made just for these recorders and it has special cutout sections where the recorder motherboard slides into it and becomes part of it. For these reasons its tricky to remove or disassemble. Even if you could find the proper replacement burner, it costs $250 as a spare part and you also need a $90 service remote and $60 service DVD to install it properly. Discouraging, to say the least. Since you live in Canada, your recorder is fully supported for service by Pioneer Canada: you could check with an authorized service center and ask what they would charge to clean (not replace) the burner. If it comes in under $125, it might be worth doing, otherwise forget it and just migrate to 8x media for the next few years.

Aside from a couple of "no-name" recorder models, none have burners that can be replaced by cheap off-the-shelf PC burners. This wouldn't be so annoying if the mfr markup on replacement recorder burners wasn't an outrageous 1000% or more: the only difference between most recorder burners and an ordinary PC burner is a slight modification to the firmware chip that supports copy protection. Recorder mfrs have the gall to charge $250 for this one tiny modification, to a burner which would otherwise be exactly the same as a $25 PC burner. Disgusting. With the earlier Pioneer x10, x20 and x30 models you could use the same model Pioneer PC burner as a replacement, simply by swapping the controller board from the original recorder burner into the new PC burner. So far, no one has been able to do this with the 640, 650 or 660 series, because their burners also have an odd casing design and it isn't at all clear which (if any) off-the-shelf Sony burner could be cannibalized for parts.

While this is all kind of depressing, to put it in context a Pioneer x40, x50 or x60 recorder still stands a better chance of being usable for a longer time than many other excellent recorders. It may lose the ability to burn 16x media after a couple of years, but will continue to burn 8x almost indefinitely. The popular, older Toshiba XS and Sony GX recorders become completely useless with any media when their burners start to wear- the Sonys can't be fixed at all, even by Sony, and the Toshibas are hell on wheels to repair. With the Pioneer, you at least have the option of shrugging your shoulders and moving on with 8x media: I'll take that over a completely dead recorder anytime. A small comfort, maybe, but nice to have.

[jackdup]

I have extended warranty on the unit which expires in a week and a half. I already contacted the extended warranty company to start the process but I really hate to send the unit in for repair. I think I would rather take the money and apply it to a new machine. No one here has the Pioneer recorders anymore. What do you think of the LG with Hard drive? I have never owned an LG product so thought I would ask your opinion.

I will keep the Pioneer and keep using it as you suggested. I think I will likely keep the 16x disks I have coming as well as I can use them in my PC and my other two Pioneer recorders as so far they are still burning the 16x media just fine.

Thanks again for you help and explanations on the drives.

[orsetto]

It depends on the fine print of your warranty: if they agree to repair it, I would take advantage and send it in for sure. But if there's a clause that says they can "replace with similar", make sure you would be able to get your own machine back if you decline. With Pioneer out of business now, there is no "similar" available and you could end up with an inferior non-Pioneer with no HDD feature, or perhaps the LG.

The LG with HDD has a poor rep for quality and durability, don't bother. If you like your Pioneer, look around for dealers in Canada that sell surplus Pioneer 460 models. The 460 is a newer version of the 650 that was sold thru CostCo and is pretty much identical except for the 460 remote being more elaborate and 160GB HDD in the 460 instead of 250GB as on the 650. "New open box" (i.e. CostCo clueless customer returns) of the Pio 460 frequently turn up for $250-350: check eBay stores. You might also consider the Sony RDR-HX780, which is a Pioneer 460 without DVD-RAM features. The Sony production line was not as tightly controlled as the Pioneer, so quality varies more from sample to sample and it uses an older video encoder which isn't as good as the Pioneer. However, many Canadian stores were recently blowing them out for approx $200, not a bad price if you find one.

[jackdup]

I have extended warranty on the unit which expires in a week and a half. I already contacted the extended warranty company to start the process but I really hate to send the unit in for repair. I think I would rather take the money and apply it to a new machine. No one here has the Pioneer recorders anymore. What do you think of the LG with Hard drive? I have never owned an LG product so thought I would ask your opinion.

I will keep the Pioneer and keep using it as you suggested. I think I will likely keep the 16x disks I have coming as well as I can use them in my PC and my other two Pioneer recorders as so far they are still burning the 16x media just fine.

Thanks again for you help and explanations on the drives.