Did you have it pointed 141 degrees?
You're on the edge of what that can do. Ask your neighbors what is working for them.
Next step up is something like this.
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Originally Posted by edDV
The FCC is investigating the practice of reducing the number of analog channels and moving them to a digital service tier. They feel that there's something shady about that, since analog customers are not being charged less, while digital cutomers are not being charged more. It has been temporarily halted, at least in my community.
However the major cable players are still proceding with plans to gradually eliminate analog service entirely except for locals. They are doing this one community at a time. I expect that by 2012 cable service in most communities will be digital except perhaps for basic cable, consisting of the primary subchannels for local full-power broadcast stations. To have anything beyond basic cable will require installation of cable boxes. This was going on at the same time as the broadcast analog shutdown in some areas, causing even more confusion.
The FCC only regulates the rebroadcast of OTA channels on cable. They and the cable industry have worked out detailed rules about how this will be done. There are five classes of local OTA stations and subchannels for purposes of cable regulation.
1. "Must carry" primary channels. These must be carried on cable with an analog conversion until 2012. The FCC also ruled that these stations must be carried in digital clearQAM including HD if the station is broadcasting HD over the air. "Must carry" stations are mostly foreign language, home shopping and religious. The HD requirement is controversial because the cable industry needs to make space for stations like Home Shopping Network, etc. in HD without any compensation. This will be at the cost of a few analog cable channels to make up the bandwidth.
2. "Must carry" subchannels. There is no requirement for cable to carry other than the primary subchannel.
3. "Retransmission consent" stations. This includes all stations that haven't applied for "must carry" status. This includes most major networks. The carriage of the primary and secondary channels are negotiated in a package that includes network owned cable channels (e.g. FoxNews, FoxBusiness, MTV, Bravo, MSNBC, Universal, USA, etc.). This also includes local duopolys like CBS/CW.
4. Low power and locals that didn't apply for "must carry" are not required to be carried on cable.
5. PBS has a special contract with the cable industry at the national level. It has been agreed that the primary channel will be carried in analog. It has also been agreed that the primary and all subchannels will be carried in clearQAM digital including SD and HD as broadcast. Again analog cable channels must be reduced to make room for this requirement.
The above is the normal policy. There are hardship options for older cable systems that don't have sufficient bandwidth to meet the requirements. Options include complete conversion to digital. In such cases, a cable box needs to be supplied to "basic service" customers without additional charge. There is no requirement for free cable boxes to higher level subscriptions.
Beyond all that, the FCC does not regulate cable channels except for technical standards. The cable companies are free to offer a different mix of analog and digital services matched to the local customer demands.
edDV I want to thank you for all the great info regarding dtv that you have offered for myself and others. It is very much appreciated that you are sharing this knowledge.
So for myself and many others I'm sure
Thank you!Donadagohvi (Cherokee for "Until we meet again")
Thanks for the thank you. I've had a curiosity about the digital conversion going back a decade. Once I figured it out, I thought I'd pass along the knowledge. There has been a great deal of misinformation floating around.
This is one article from a reputable source on the FCC's investigation of channel switching by cable companies: http://arstechnica.com/media/news/2009/01/fcc-wants-big-fines-for-cable-giants-over-ch...-switching.ars
Here's another from the Consumers Union: http://www.consumersunion.org/blogs/hun/2008/11/now_hear_this_newsletter_octob_1.html
I think they are responding to reduction of analog cable channels not over the air locals. This is curious because some of the FCC policies on "must carry" HD and the PBS agreement force a reduction of analog cable channels. The bandwidth has to be made up somewhere. Depending on local OTA programming, these decisions alone could cause loss of 2 to 5+ analog cable channels.
I think more appropriate to the area the FCC regulates is fighting the clearQAM mess where cable companies refuse to list clearQAM channels and switch channels around making it difficult to find them. TV tuner scans often fail to pick them all up.
Most first level Comcast support people claim to know nothing about clearQAM. This is where the FCC should exert influence. They don't belong in cable only programming decisions.
I have a box that I got with the coupon. I didnt' have to rescan after the switch. Though since I have cable I haven't checked all the channels on the one tv i use it on.
Comcast here in the metro Detroit area is going to start dropping analog cable gradually.
The article is still confusing about its plan to offer free digital cable boxes (cable box not dvr naturally). What I"m not sure about is I have lines for other tvs but have the digital + hdtv package on one set but my other tvs get the midpremium analog package. In other words those sets don't have a box but can get analog 1-99 - so I don't know if I'd qualify for the plan since I do have a digital package but not for the whole set.
For the last year or two there haven't been any change in analog on comcast EXCEPT the removal of the G4 video game channel. That is the only that I have to use my official comcast cable dvr to watch. The others I can still get.
They have recently gone and removed some of the 20-30 analog channels and i think they were reassigned somewhere. However I never really watched those so I don't really know where they went to.
The thing I'd like about getting the cable boxs for the other tvs would be to get the full channel set again. Also I'm not sure if they offer the on demand stuff on the cable box or if that is only available on the dvr.
The other thing I'm hesitant about is i still use an analog dvd recorder with the analog cable going straight to the recorder. I've never had a cable box between the recorder and the tv so I don't know how that would work - in regards to recording one channel on the recorder and watching another on the tv with one cable box.
I have toyed with the idea of getting a dvd recorder with a digital tuner. But I don't know if that would affect digital cable signals or if that has to be an official "box" from the company.Donatello - The Shredder? Michelangelo - Maybe all that hardware is for making coleslaw?
Originally Posted by yoda313
WJBK DT FOX 02 58 07 --/--/09 200902xxxxx ? Fox.......
WDIV DT NBC 04 45 45 --/--/09 200902xxxxx ? PostNewswk
WXYZ DT ABC 07 41 41 --/--/09 200902xxxxx ? Scripps...
WMYD DT MYN 20 21 21 02/17/09 20090209AEB Y Granite...
WPXD DT ION 31 33 31 02/17/09 20090209ALT N ION Media. (Will flash cut to post DTV channel)
WADL DT IND 38 39 39 --/--/09 200902xxxxx ? Adell.....
WKBD DT CW- 50 14 14 --/--/09 200902xxxxx ? CBS.......
WTVS DT PBS 56 43 43 --/--/09 200902xxxxx ? ..........
WWJ- DT CBS 62 44 44 --/--/09 200902xxxxx ? CBS.......
WJBK-DT moved from 58 to 07
WPXD-DT moved from 33 to 31
You may also see changes in subchannels offered.
Originally Posted by yoda313
If you add cable boxes or DVRs to the other sets, they too should receive the digital channels without changing your plan. They will program the box to match your plan.
BTW: Here Comcast is offering a four day HBO/CineMax free preview. All HBO/CineMax channels are showing up on clearQAM including HD channels. Rescan your TV QAM tuner to receive them
Originally Posted by yoda313
Some DVD recorders have ATSC tuners. These only work for OTA ATSC broadcasts and do nothing on cable.
Some DVD recorders also have QAM tuners. These only work for clearQAM unencrypted digital cable channels.
Some DVD recorders may also have QAM tuners with CableCard capability. You get the CableCard from Comcast and then the DVD recorder gets all the diigtal channels in your tier but does not get On Demand offerings.
Originally Posted by edDV
Originally Posted by edDV
I don't know exactly what legal basis the FCC has for it's investigation, but obviously feels it has jurisdiction over this.
Originally Posted by usually_quiet
If cable could eliminate 50 analog channels, they could add nearly 500 SD or 100-150 HD digital channels. Bit-rate sharing technology allows adding even more stations without going to MPeg4. The cable companies need to balance this with customers wanting analog service. It is a business decision, not a government decision.
California is an interesting case. Traditionally cable was regulated at the city, county or district level. Recently the California legislature decided that because Verizon (FIOS) or AT&T (U-Verse) were beginning to offer competing services, local regulation was no longer needed so regulation was centralized at the state level. This was done all at once even though less than 20% of households had a telco option and many localities would have to wait decades for FIOS or U-Verse. This left small counties with a monopoly cable system and no regulatory influence. Cynics saw this as a political grab for lobbyist campaign funding at the state level. Now the federal regulators want to take regulatory control and from the states. Follow the money.
KTVK (3) doesn't come in real strong. It jumps all over the place and I'm not getting KPHO (5 CBS) or KAET (8 PBS) at all. I am getting KSAZ (FOX 10) and KPNX (12 NBC) though..
1031..KTVK-HD......3.1 1101..KSAZ DT.....10.1 1121..KPNX-DT.....12.1 1122..Weather.....12.2 1151..ABC15HD.....15.1 1152..GoAZTV......15.2 1211..KPAZ-D1.....21.1 1212..KPAZ-D2.....21.2 1213..KPAZ-D3.....21.3 1214..KPAZ-D4.....21.4 1215..KPAZ-D5.....21.5 1331..KTVWDT......33.1 1332..KFPH CA.....33.2 1401..KEJR-LD.....40.1 1451..KUTP-DT.....45.1 1452..KUTP-DT(1)..45.2 1511..ION.........51.1 1512..qubo........51.2 1513..IONLife.....51.3 1514..Worship.....51.4 1611..KASW........61.1
If cable could eliminate 50 analog channels, they could add nearly 500 SD or 100-150 HD digital channels. Bit-rate sharing technology allows adding even more stations without going to MPeg4
I'm paying $30 more a month now that I have digital cable than I was two months ago with extended basic cable and I'm not getting much more than I was getting before. It's not really worth buying that big screen TV if almost everything that the cable companies offer is 480i. These TVs were made to watch High Definition wide screen content.
So it's called digital cable. It doesn't look any better than it looked when it was called analog cable. Almost everything that I get with digital cable I was getting with analog cable with my QAM tuners and most of the HD content is just upconverted analog. I was hoping that all of the analog cable channels would switch to HD. What good is the HD package if you have to view the analog stations to view half of the major cable networks. The government forces the networks to offer a better product but lets the cable networks keep producing the same old crap.
Cable companies should be offering a hell of a lot more content for what they are charging. Most of the money they make is from advertising. When cable first came out, it was around $7 a month (the same as a phone bill) and was commercial free. That was the whole selling point. Now, not only do they bomb you with commercials evey 10 minutes but everything they show has a commercial running on top of it while you're trying to watch it. They don't need any kind of copy gaurd. Who the hell would want to record anything they broadcast. It's hardly worth even watching.with all the watermarks and advertisements covering the screen.
Originally Posted by DarrellS
Most all cable channels are available for downlink in HD. But much of it is still upscaled SD. This is quickly changing.
I tried three amplified $30-40 antennas today. I can only get the local ABC, about 33 miles away. The others are 38-43 miles away, same geographic direction, but not picked up.
The quality of the signal varies among the boxes. The $30 Philips from Lowes was the best one, virtually no drops or macroblocks. The $30 Lowes RCA and Walmart $37 Philips were crappy, each with varying levels of signal loss.
If Best Buy had that Terk in stock, I'd give it a shot. People claim it can get them signals from as far as 50 miles sometimes. It's more directional, so it appears to work poorly in the city and surrounded by tower locations, better performance for folks outside the heart of the city, with a clear directional path to aim at.
Do any of those antenna sites tell you explicitly where you might want to point your (indoor) antenna so you can pick up the largest amount of channels? (Alas, poor channels, I knew them well... used to pick up a lot via UHF, and I picked up some of the channels I wanted again once or twice during the last year on DTV, but now? No. And tvfool.com insisted I'd need a roof antenna to pick them up. )
Our house has DirecTV on two TVs. If I hook the HDTVs up to the wall antenna jacks, can I still use the house setup as an antenna, or even the dish as an antenna? (No, I'm NOT looking to get DirecTV on the other TVs. :P) Or is it, as I suspect, a very very very bad idea?If cameras add ten pounds, why would people want to eat them?
TVFool has a new feature. They give an obstacle path between the transmitter (left) and your house (right).
Here is the strong station I get (although only 11.5KW). The transmitter is at 2100Ft and I'm at ~3000Ft.
Here is a 1000KW CBS station ~60miles away that is just below stable.
It is my 2nd strongest at 20-35% signal strength. I need a better UHF antenna.
Note how signals bend down over peaks.
Here's a 20KW station above Santa Rosa 95 miles away.
Originally Posted by eddv
And thanks for the info on the dvd recorders and the cable box. I wouldn't get the hd since I only have one hdtv. But if a plain no frills digital cable box would get on demand as well as the digital tier that I'm on I will definitely get around to calling them.
Also I did see the notice on the hbo trial run. I bumped into Dark Knight over the weekend. Looked real good in hd. Too bad it was cropped. Are all HBO HD movies cropped? That would suck - pay for a premium channel and not even get the oar???? No thanks.....Donatello - The Shredder? Michelangelo - Maybe all that hardware is for making coleslaw?
Originally Posted by yoda313
In Detroit Fox was originally (analog) on 2. Their temp DT channel was on 58. The new DT channel is on 07 even though your tuner probably still reports virtual 2-1. Some tuners report the real RF channel, others use the "virtual" channel number.
Ch38 (analog) had a temp DT channel on 39. They chose to stay on 39 for the permanent DT channel but the "virtual" remains 38-1.
@eddv - thanks that explains it. I guess my insignia converter box uses the "virtual channel" because that is what shows for the fox station. I hadn't heard the term virtual channel before I bumped into this thread.Donatello - The Shredder? Michelangelo - Maybe all that hardware is for making coleslaw?
There is a background story to the origin of "virtual channels". It was necessary to get the cooperation of the top dog lower VHF stations. It became clear that digital conversion meant these stations needed to move up frequency for digital performance reasons. Low channel numbers held brand status so it was agreed that older stations could retain their low channel virtual brand regardless of actual broadcast frequency. Virtual channels were the result.
For example this allows WCBS-2 in New York to continue to brand themselves as WCBS 2-1 even though they broadcast now on UHF channel 33.
Originally Posted by eddvDonatello - The Shredder? Michelangelo - Maybe all that hardware is for making coleslaw?