Question/Opinion: Capturing from VHS to digital, then to DVD

[SupaDupaMonkey]

Greetings,

Like most, I am converting my VHS tapes (mostly tv shows) to digital storage for eventual output to DVD.

Ran into a few hiccups, but managed to do a test run on one VHS tape to a DVD-DL. The result was, I suppose, satisfactory. However, I am seeking better reproduction for my tastes.

Here is what I want: The absolute best possible transfer from VHS to digital. And of course, likewise to DVD.

For this post, I'm more interested in the first half of my goal (vhs to digital) with an eye in my head for the future when it comes time to convert it to DVD.

Hiccup-wise was pretty much all in the capturing process. The issue was two fold: The video would freeze on a frame whilst the rest of it records, then the video resume course a few moments ahead of the freeze point -- all the while, the audio becomes unsynced.

During capturing, I've had solid capturing for hours (3 hour show) before it would hiccup. At hiccup point, I'd try re-capturing that footage several times under shorter capture durations... however I'd still get the hiccups during the shorter durations; mostly at the same spot, but not always.

*Note: The source VHS tape was recorded in EP mode (as is most of my collection) and is generally somewhat jittery at times, using a 4-Head Daewoo VHS player/recorder with RCA connections.

My first question would probably be to the effect of what would take care of this little problem?

Conclusion, based upon some research on the web and on this site: A TBC device.

Unless there are other alternatives, I'm open to other suggestions. (I've read a lot of others during my research, but maybe you might know of others that I haven't seen yet)


With all that in mind, I'm seeking opinions in regards to related to this whole capturing process...


Since the source is VHS recorded in EP using a 4-head VCR Player/Recorder with RCA connections during original date of recording, for the best capture possible...

Would I get better results if I'm capturing the tape from some sort of higher-head VHS player (8-head, for instance) with both Composite cables *and* a TBC, whether it be on an actual VHS player or some combination deck?

Again, in particular the upgrade to an 8-head and composite connections, when originally the tv show was recorded using a 4-head with RCA connections... would that make a difference?

I mean, logically -- to me, if the source was recorded using lesser quality equipment (RCA instead of composite, 4-head instead of 6), then how would capturing it nowadays using slightly better equipment improve the source?

I'm hoping it would yield the same result (theoretically) as those blu-ray upscalers when playing regular DVD's, but I'm no pro at this which is why I'm here.

Furthermore, if what I'm asking is actually feasible...

IS there, and for a good price -- whether it be through e-bay or what-have you -- a VHS player or combination deck that has all of the above (6 or 8-heads, composite output, and a good TBC)?

When I was researching... I came across $200-600 decks. I'm sure that's probably what I'd need for what I'm asking, but if any of you know any good bargains/deals if it came to one of those things, then I'd be grateful because I really don't want to spend a lot of money on a one-time venture once it's all said and captured. Unless of course, one of these combination decks had mini-DV, because I can still use those... only then it might be worth paying a little extra.

Now, I did come across one of those DVD/VHS combination recorders, a regular one mind you... not one of those expensive professional/prosumer decks. It had HDMI out, as well as the Composite outs. However, it didn't specify the VHS head (probably 4-head) and any TBC capability. In particular, the Sony RDR-VX525.

This model intrigued me because of HDMI and Composite Cable capturing possibilities... however, if my source VHS's problems are solved via TBC then it wouldn't do me any good now would it? But then again, it is a recorder, so perhaps it could do a straight VHS to DVD copy on the console itself which would solve my whole dilemma itself... but I dunno!

Oh and lastly... as if to throw all this whole "best capturing procedures" out the window... when finally outputting to DVD, I know DVD uses mpeg 2 compression/encoding... would that whole DVD compression/encoding -- whatever the heck you call it -- process erase whatever quality that I did manage to preserve when capturing?? (And this is even using DVD-DL to avoid any compression)

But hey, like I said, I'm no expert. Which is why I'm here to consult with you guys. Any opinions or suggestions on any of this mess would be extremely helpful.

And if my thinking is right on any of this, feel free to let me know because I'm the kind of person that needs assurance before I proceed.


*My computer specs, if need be, are somewhere in my profile if there aren't listed on the official posting of this topic.

[G)-(OST]

Oh and lastly... as if to throw all this whole "best capturing procedures" out the window... when finally outputting to DVD, I know DVD uses mpeg 2 compression/encoding... would that whole DVD compression/encoding -- whatever the heck you call it -- process erase whatever quality that I did manage to preserve when capturing??

Hi
You are capturing VHS, I wouldn't expect high quality, however, if you converted your capture to mpeg2, then I doubt you would see any difference in quality between the 2 providing you allow enough bitrate in your mpeg encoder.

By the way, welcome to VH

Denis

[lordsmurf]

Read some of the postings here: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/dvd-project-help-9.html
Many of them cover these topics.

Some that may help:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/showthread.php/good-quality-restore-433.html
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/showthread.php/dvd-recorder-capture-1460.html
... and I'm sure there are more.

As you'll see there, I've written so many posts on this topic (on that forum, this forum, other forums), that it's best to just link to those, instead of re-writing it all again.

[robjv1]

To your question about the VCR:

If you are working with a bunch of EP tapes, I would say it’s best to get a VCR that captures as much detail as possible and possess a good tracking range. With footage taped off of TV, I have had good luck with my JVC SVHS decks (see thread in restoration section for specific models) without needing additional equipment. The Panasonic AG-1980 deck would probably fit your needs too, but it’s going to depend on your tapes, as with EP tapes tracking and picture stability are usually the biggest issues. Using a DVD recorder would mitigate all of your current hiccups with the capturing process, so you would have to worry about that. What type of television material are you converting?

The jitter issue can USUALLY be solved by using a better VCR and/or a Panasonic ES-10 DVD recorder (but don’t use it as your DVD recorder, just as a pass-through device, as it has filters that are well suited for certain types of visual problems/jitter).

Do you have the original deck in which the tapes were recorded? Sometimes using the original deck will provide the best results. An 8 head deck is not necessarily better then a 4 head deck. Are your tapes in hi-fi or mono? To me, it sounds like your first priority should be getting a better VCR though.

You won’t get a “DVD” quality video out of a VHS tape, especially not an EP tape. With the right equipment and technique, you can make improvements though that will increase your enjoyment of watching the material. I watch all my VHS stuff on a CRT TV, as LCD screens tend to make VHS video look very ugly when blown up to larger screen sizes.

As a general principle, you’ll get less quality and versatility out of a combo device. I would stick with the prosumer VCR models listed in the restoration thread.

[SupaDupaMonkey]

Thanks for the welcome Denis.

And thanks to all of you who have provided feedback.


For Denis,

In regards to the quality difference between my EP VHS tapes and it being transferred to DVD, I can only go by the one test DVD I made. And from my test, the original VHS tape had better quality than the DVD of it. Which is why I was curious if the MPEG 2 encoding of the captured material somehow made it worse, which I was hoping it wouldn't. However, your statement about it shouldn't be making much quality difference made me think I didn't do something right.

Perhaps it was in the bitrate setting... However, I must confess that I don't have much knowledge of bitrates and the whole dvd encoding process in general, but it is something that I should and intend to research and look into, especially as I went to school for something related to this field (Digital Cinema, anyone?). Apparently I didn't learn enough hehehe.

But anyhoo, I think I will try to re-encode the material again, this time seeing if any adjustments to bitrate settings would do the trick. I'll research bitrate stuff and dvd encoding as a whole to see if perhaps I missed something.

I have ceased to do any further capture-to-dvd tests of any of my other EP tapes simply because I didn't like the experience I had capturing this first one. Those "hiccups", as I call them, really bugged the beeswax out of me and want to make sure I have the right equipment -- affordable equipment that is -- that would prevent it from happening again.


Which brings me to robjv1,

I haven't yet, but I will look at the restoration page and look up the different deck models you suggested. And if these models save me cash from having to buy additional equipment, then that would be awesome.

To answer your questions:

No, I do not have the original VHS recorder that was used to copy the footage.

Yes, all my EP tapes should all have been captured in Hi-Fi mode. I might have some mono, but I don't remember. The test VHS, at least, was in Hi-Fi.

Again, my problems are mostly general jitter, audio disruption, and tracking issues. Strong-enough disruption to cause my capture card to freeze video frames at a select few points whilst throwing audio out of sync, but definitely enough to agitate me to the point where I'd like to get affordable enough equipment to overcome them.

So, you're saying that if I stick with capturing from my Intensity Pro card, that I should look into getting a better VCR, one of those prosumer models you suggest I look into? You're saying they should be powerful enough to play an EP tape, stabilizing it enough so that my capture card won't be as sensitive in getting hung up on strong video disruptions. I would assume (upon researching the models) that these prosumer models would have TBC and/or integrated filters that should clear out these problems.

And you're also suggesting that since I intend to put them on DVD anyways, that I could bypass all the capturing and just have them record VHS deck-to-DVD recorder and it shouldn't cause any capturing problems?

In a related question to that last bit... yes, the goal is to put them on DVD at some point, however I intend to edit bits and pieces from each tape to form compilations that would be put on DVD (that's basically my end goal)...

Now regardless of the fact that it is in indeed mostly from EP material, would ripping the VHS-transferred DVD (which was produced via the VHS deck to DVD recorder route) be working off of less quality material as opposed to capturing uncompressed VHS footage via the capture card method?

Just curious, because it might be easier via the prosumer VHS deck to DVD recorder, but if preserving the most quality and even enhancing that material as well via the prosumer VHS deck to TBC device to capture card then that might be the way to go as well.


And lastly, to Lord Smurf,

After reading through several of your posts on your site, I must confess that I have become quite interested in learning the whole restoration process. Your posts there provide TONS of very informative and useful techniques that make me want to try it for myself.

Now, this project of mine to capture, preserve and perhaps enhancing (if it is not financially exhaustive to get the equipment to do it) all my EP tapes to DVD is really just a one-and-done venture. Furthermore, outside of this personal project of mine, I'm not really an analog guy... I'm definitely pro the digital wave as I have had studies in Digital Cinema.

Despite that, I am still curious to learn the restoration side of things, even if to just broaden my experience to things analog.

In your opinion, is there strong demand in the restoration field, especially with this switch to all thing digital?

Regardless, I might be bugging you about things like this in the future.

[lordsmurf]

Restoring VHS is merely the latest "thing" in the media field -- in a few years, I'll be on to the next thing. (Not necessarily Blu-ray, either.)

Demand has diminished some in recent years, and been flooded with cheapo crap methods (Walgreens, Panasonic DVD recorders, $25 capture cards with big promises, Sony garbage). So a lot of what I find now are projects that are being done for the second time, because the first person butchered it, or the first-do-it-yourself attempt sucked.

Sadly, a lot of people get that "good enough" attitude, so they have decided to keep their inferior conversion work, which often look worse than the tapes did. Even more irritating than that is the consumer idea that "VHS will never be as good as a DVD", which is hogwash. Certain parts of the signal can indeed be made into "DVD quality" (cleanliness of chroma, lack of grain, etc), only the resolution is held static.

Depending on the number of tapes, sometimes its better to just outsource the project to somebody that knows what they're doing. I really suggest that route for less than 50 tapes, especially if it's important "memories" (weddings, kids, family, rare tapes, etc). In the end, the price can be comparable, but with none of the work involved.

[robjv1]

I'm no expert on PC capturing, but I wouldn't say one is better then the other, just different. There are things you can do in hardware in the analog realm that you can't "filter-away" on a computer. Plus if your end product is DVD, then it's just easier to go directly to DVD. You can burn on -RW disc and rip it to your computer and use a program like Womble MPEG Video Wizard to make compilation videos, and it will not re-encode your footage as long as your cuts are simple, and should you want to put in transitions, it will only re-encode the footage at the transition and not the whole video like most NLEs would do with MPEG2 video. It's a very nice program!

Regardless of whether you choose to output to a DVD recorder or your PC, getting a good VCR is priority one in my eyes. A lot of people report needing a standalone full frame TBC of some sort if you are going to be capturing to the computer.

Yeah, I think a lot of it depends on your goals and expectations. I started off expecting greatness for cheap and as you can guess that didn't work out. You can't just throw money at it either though, especially not if you want the absolute best, it's going to take a lot of time and tinkering as well. A lot of people go the PC route, but I found that DVD recorders presented a much more hassle-free solution overall, especially in regards to frame-dropping and audio synch. I'm sure that the experts on here use both anyways, but for me, straight to DVD has provided excellent results.

If you get a good DVD recorder (and you will have to find one used, there are no DVD recorders on the market currently appropriate for this work) and record at a decent bit rate, you can expect good results. You'll never get "HD quality video" from a VHS tape, but all of my VHS captures have come out better then the original tape. I fall squarely in the first-go-around led to sucky results camp. I'm much happier with what I've accomplished the second time around, so sometimes it just helps to practice.

There is a tremendous amount of information on these boards on all of these topics and I've found it invaluable. I would just say you should decide what route you want to take and jump in and see how you like the results. It sounds like you've been doing it a bit already. Despite the times of frustration and the money spent on things that didn't pan out exactly as I wanted them, this has been mostly a fun endeavor! I've got a little $$$ on the side too, helping out family and friends with these types of projects, which helps absorb (justify?) the costs associated with a hobby such as this.

[SupaDupaMonkey]

Well guys,

I starting to zero in on getting both a JVC D-VHS deck as well as a DataVideo TBC-1000.

Based on reading a bunch of different posts in and outside of this site, as well as your suggestions, I think a combination of a prosumer S-VHS deck like one of those JVC D-VHS decks and an external TBC should solve any problems.

The way I look at it is:

inline TBC & DNR advantages (from deck) + external TBC advantages (tbc1000) + PC Capture Card (Intensity Pro) = A fighting chance at retaining and improving as much quality from an EP tape as possible.

In particular, I am zero-ing in on the D-VHS deck simply because I see more possibilities beyond my VHS to Digital project... I can always use another option of storing digital material through DVHS tapes. This way I can get more use out of this D-VHS/SVHS deck than I would a sole S-VHS.

I never realized there was such a thing as D-VHS. I mean, I knew about mini-DV and things like that, but not the D-VHS. Any thoughts on D-VHS tapes in general?


And robjv, I am still thinking about the DVD recorder route. It's just since I'll be doing a lot of picking & choosing from each VHS tape rather than full VHS copies... I might as well do it via the reusable PC Hard Drive as opposed to burning a bunch of DVD media. But then again, a hard copy is always a good thing, right?

Do you, personally, have any good suggestions for DVD recorders for my project -- specifically ones with additional flexibility with the digital realm.. hdmi & component in/outs, firewire in/outs, internal gb hard drives, etc., that sort of thing?

[robjv1]

What kind of content are you using for your compilations by the way? Are these going to be clips from movies, music videos, sports, wrestling, etc? Are these coming from footage taped off of television or more like home movies?

The main reason I use a DVD recorder is for the quality it provides. VHS tapes need filtering and the JVC DVHS deck will provide that. A good DVD recorder would provide additional filtering, which may be desirable if your tapes have picture quality issues. I think using the PC might be a better use of your time though, since you are making a compilation. Since you are piecing together clips from multiple sources, it is probably easier to do it on the PC, more for the editing abilities then anything else. Piecing together a few second clips on a DVD recorder is akin to trying to make a compilation video between two VCRs as in the "good old days", although some decks are better at it then others.

If I were you, I would get the VCR and the TBC and see how it looks with your PC captures. You can always play around with software on your computer to see if you can make any further improvements. Hopefully the Datavideo TBC along with the JVC DVHS deck will resolve the problems with PC capture. Having a dedicated PC just for capturing is helpful too. I would get a good cheapo VCR (Panasonic AG2650 is a good one Orsetto recommended in the past) as a spare for tapes your JVC doesn't like. I've found that not all JVC models are as appealing to use with the TBC off, but sometimes that's the only way you can get a good capture.

Most DVD recorders have component in/out and there are a number that have internal GB HDs, but I don't know of any good ones that offer firewire in (well, that are usable outside of dubbing mini-DV camcorders) or HDMI connections.

[lordsmurf]

Well guys, I starting to zero in on getting both a JVC D-VHS deck as well as a DataVideo TBC-1000.

I have a spare DataVideo TBC-1000 available, if you've not found one already.
These are getting harder to find, and more expensive, too.

[SupaDupaMonkey]

What kind of content are you using for your compilations by the way? Are these going to be clips from movies, music videos, sports, wrestling, etc? Are these coming from footage taped off of television or more like home movies?

At the expense of geeking out for a moment, the material is mostly pro wrestling shows from TV (... it was an adolescent thing, what can I say). A few boxing matches, tv shows, and home videos as well.

The underlying goal for all of this is to really train myself in video editing. I want to immerse myself into different editing programs like Avid Media Composer and Adobe Premiere Pro, I did some Final Cut Pro in college, all so that I can feel comfortably knowledgeable when applying for video editing jobs. So I figure, for efficiency sake, might as well learn while I'm working on an old hobby of mine, besides... it's the only material I have. And this is why I prefer the capture card method... so I can do my editing training.

But anyways... all the VHS restoration stuff opened my eyes beyond the digital editing. Sounds pretty cool to learn, even for my own enjoyment at the very least.

But yeah, these DVD recorders are also intriguing for any of the vhs material I have that I'm not too concerned about quality or are whole-tape transfers.

But thanks for your advice and recommendations. All of which have been helpful thus far.

[SupaDupaMonkey]

Well guys, I starting to zero in on getting both a JVC D-VHS deck as well as a DataVideo TBC-1000.

I have a spare DataVideo TBC-1000 available, if you've not found one already.
These are getting harder to find, and more expensive, too.

Yeah, tell me about it. I couldn't believe my eyes at those prices.

But thank you for offering, because I'm definitely interested. I'll shoot you a PM.

[robjv1]

Yeah, I had a feeling by the way you were talking about it that wrestling had something to do with it haha. Nothing to be ashamed of though, content is content! This is one of the things I have worked with most extensively and I will say the most important thing with wrestling and most sports is bit rate. Depending on what era of footage you are talking about, there are bright lights, smoke, camera flashes, signs, brightly lit arenas and more to contend with -- not even mentioning the fast moving objects on the screen. It's probably one of the most difficult stuff to encode without macroblocks, so you are going to need a good encoder, whether it be the encoder in a DVD recorder (the JVC DR-M100S has worked VERY well for me with this content) or your encoder on your PC.