Burning up until the maximum width of the disc?

[Uhfgood]

Hello, I'm new here. Actually I come here all the time, but I've never registered until now. Anyhow, I'm essentially putting home movies on dvd (single-layer dvd-r's). I basically use some cheap brand for watchable dvd's, they usually have about 2 full hours on one dvd. I'm also doing sort of archive versions. Where I actually split the video into two pieces 1 hour each, and burn each hour on two discs as data (mpeg files). I'm using Nero 6 software to burn (yes I know it's old but it still works for what i'm doing). I try to use the max bitrate I can allow on one disc, and sometimes it takes the space to the "edge". Essentially fills it out as much as possible. Sometimes the verification tests come back failed. However I'll play it in the ps3 or just in windows media player on my computer. The videos play, and even get to the end of the video. Sometimes in the ps3 it will report that something is wrong even though it managed to play the whole thing. I realize that the way mpeg is, it will play until it's cut off (for instance splitting it into more than one piece, you can still play the first part until the end of the data). So basically my question is this, if you burn to the end of the disc that is, even past what the disc will handle, does this affect disc integrity at all? Like will it not last as long as other discs that haven't been filled up "to the brim"? Or does it not matter as far as disc integrity goes. I want to know if I have to re-encode and re-burn some of these videos (each one of the discs that have been burned this way doesn't seem to have anything missing).

So to make myself clear, Does filling up a dvd or going past the end of it, affect the disc integrity at all?

[jagabo]

Just stop using crappy media and you won't have to worry about it.

[minidv2dvd]

integrity no. the dye layer is sandwiched between 2 pieces of plastic. "cheap" media often has problems with write/read errors in the last 200mb or so. it's wise to not burn all 4.365 GB.

[redwudz]

So to make myself clear, Does filling up a dvd or going past the end of it, affect the disc integrity at all?

Most of the time, yes. Not saying that it will fail if it works now, but you may be producing damaged discs that will have problems with some players. Even with high quality discs like Verbatim or Taiyo Yuden, this would be a big gamble. The outside edge of a disc is where there can be problems with the dye coating and that usually means lost data.

If you really must use cheap discs, (And I don't know why anyone would if they value their video or data) burn about 100MB, or better, 200 MB short of the maximum disc capacity, which is usually 4.37 GB. This amounts to a disc that will hold 4.35 GB of video. You won't miss that little bit. And if you lower your bitrate just a little and burn at the proper size, no need to lose any video and you will likely never notice any hit on quality.

If you're trying to save a few pennies per disc and still have the best quality burn, not likely to happen, IMO.

And welcome to our forums.

[fritzi93]

The crummier the media, the more likely it is to have problems on the outer edge. For a DVDR media guide, look here:

http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/media/index.htm

[EDIT] Yes, welcome to videohelp.

[Uhfgood]

People assumed I was using bad media. Does this mean that every disc that fails a verification test through nero 6, is bad media? I usually tend to go with brand names, like I'm using Memorex discs, I don't know who the actual manufacturers are, but I figured they would be ok. I will still be using these discs but making sure I don't go past that last 200MB. So the question still is then, whether I should burn new copies. A couple of vids past I've since deleted from my hard drive (as these were analog captures from hi-8 sources), however the last one to do this I still have on my hard drive. So I can at least correct it. (I can still correct those older ones but they'll take time to recapture now).

Thanks for the info, and the welcome!

[redwudz]

Memorex isn't generally known as good DVD media. It's made by quite a few different manufacturers, so good luck getting two batches that perform the same. (See 'DVD Media' to the left and search for 'Memorex".) And you are the one that said 'I basically use some cheap brand for watchable dvd's'. I favor Taiyo Yuden for mail order and Verbatim for store bought discs.

It's not too likely the burned discs will deteriorate, but it can happen. If you have a bunch of Memorex to use, I would definately try one burned 200MB smaller and see if the verification is any better. Though verification doesn't mean much, IMO. You might try Nero DiscSpeed instead and skip the verification.

If you are just burning the discs with Nero, I would try ImgBurn instead. I'm surprised Nero6 would work for any newer burners. That's one reason I quit using it some time ago. If you are using Nero for conversion, there are other programs, but that doesn't seem to be one of your problems.

[jagabo]

People assumed I was using bad media...

Try running Nero's CD-DVD Speed's Transfer Rate Test. You want a smooth graph from start to end:



With poor media the graph will get rough but the test will complete and you will still be able to read all data from the disc.



Really bad media won't even be able to finish the test and you won't be able to successfully read all data off the disc.

[Noahtuck]

People assumed I was using bad media.

Hmmm... where would people get such an idea

Oh i know!!

I basically use some cheap brand for watchable dvd's,

I usually tend to go with brand names, like I'm using Memorex discs, I don't know who the actual manufacturers are, but I figured they would be ok.

Ya know that old saying, you know what happens when you assume ??
8)

They may scan like crap and still seem fine watching them, but then when you try to retrieve the data off them or go to watch them in a year or two....

Pretty much everyone has been there, but those who fail to take "real world experience" advice to save a miniscule few cents soon learn it's better to spend the extra $5.00 for a 100 pack.

[fritzi93]

BTW, when you load a blank in your burner and start ImgBurn, it will tell you the manufacturer identifier (M.I.D.). You can then compare to the lists at No More Coasters, the link in my previous post.

No one's mentioned it yet, but you may also want to try burning at less than the full rated speed. For instance, I burn 16x media at 8x. And, although as noted above, verification and disc quality tests are by no means definitive, discs I burn that way do scan better. The real test is, all (Verbatim) discs I've burnt at 8x, and have successfully scanned have been fine, even years later. I've used Taiyo-Yuden as well with no problems. Make sure your discs are stored properly too.

Perhaps you should use up the cheap discs on something that's not critical?

Good luck.

[Uhfgood]

I did say I used the cheap ones for watchable dvd's. Then I mentioned archived ones. Sorry I forgot to mention I use the memorex for the archive versions. The cheap ones are "GQ" which are from Frys. In any case sorry for the misunderstanding.

I want to mention that there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with any of these discs that I've used so far EXCEPT for the data verification process. The little bit at the end of these discs that did fail, doesn't seem anything wrong with the files, I can even copy them to my hard drive with no problems...

I will follow your advice, and make sure of what I buy in the future. However I still want my basic question answered. Should I reburn those that failed data verification because I wrote too close to the end? For all intents and purposes the discs and the videos seem fine (I watch them all after burning them).

[jagabo]

Should I reburn those that failed data verification because I wrote too close to the end?

Of course you should.

[Uhfgood]

Thanks for answering

[jagabo]

I haven't used Fry's GQ media in years. The last time I bought some, many discs would not pass the verification phase in Nero. Those that did pass would become unreadable (at the outside edge) within an hour or two. I could watch the transfer rate graph in Nero CD-DVD Speed deteriorate over a period of several hours. The graph would start dropping off around 3.5 GB if scanned right after burning. Fifteen minutes after burning it would start dropping off around 3 GB but might still finish. An hour or two later the drop off would be down to 2.5 GB and the test would no longer run to completion. Files on the outer 1/3 of the disc could no longer be retrieved.

[jman98]

I did say I used the cheap ones for watchable dvd's. Then I mentioned archived ones. Sorry I forgot to mention I use the memorex for the archive versions. The cheap ones are "GQ" which are from Frys. In any case sorry for the misunderstanding.

Memorex is 100% crap. If you are "arhiving" to this, I wish you an awful lot of luck as you will need it.

[Uhfgood]

Sorry again, now I just made myself look even more like an idiot. I'm using Maxell not Memorex. I often confuse the names (well when remembering them because they both start with M). Are Maxell's ok?

[Uhfgood]

The GQ I'm using for watchables hasn't failed on me. But they're essentially temporary.

A guy that works with my Dad uses them all the time, because he has my Dad go over to Frys during sales. Of course I don't think he uses them for anything important either.

[fritzi93]

Sorry again, now I just made myself look even more like an idiot. I'm using Maxell not Memorex. I often confuse the names (well when remembering them because they both start with M). Are Maxell's ok?

Just a friendly caution: when you ask a question only you can answer, it's a wonder you haven't been mugged already. Again, you can find out for yourself in less than a minute:

1) Stick a blank in your burner. Open ImgBurn.
2) Jot down the M.I.D. that appears in the right-hand info pane.
3) Compare to here:

http://www.digitalfaq.com/reviews/dvd-media.htm

Nobody knows exactly what you have. Nearly every brand has various suppliers, the exceptions being Taiyo-Yuden (online) and Verbatim (retail). I've had Maxells from CMC and Ritek (ugh) and from Taiyo-Yuden and Maxell (nice). Even had some Infosmart fakes, IIRC.

Right at this moment, it seems that Maxells are probably gunna be good. But that's only assuming recent production, your discs could be anything.

[Uhfgood]

Just a friendly caution: when you ask a question only you can answer, it's a wonder you haven't been mugged already. Again, you can find out for yourself in less than a minute:

Well thanks for the insult. You could simply say "refer back to this message" as I don't normally re-read the whole thread after I get a single reply.

So the answer is "the actual manufacturers of any given brand can be different, so the only way you can do it is to test it as said above"

Really I was just asking for an opinion. You could have also simply said "I think Maxell would be ok, but to be sure you should just test them."

So thanks for being so nice.

[jagabo]

The GQ I'm using for watchables hasn't failed on me.

Yes they have:

Sometimes the verification tests come back failed. However I'll play it in the ps3 or just in windows media player on my computer. The videos play, and even get to the end of the video. Sometimes in the ps3 it will report that something is wrong...

[Uhfgood]

the verification tests failed on some of the maxell discs when I wrote to the end (or maybe past the end, but there doesn't seem to be any lost data)

I apologize for posting at all. Excuse me for not being as knowledgeable or as wise as you all.

I won't bother you again.

[lordsmurf]

Maxell consumer media is mostly Ritek or CMC
Ritek or CMC = not very good media at all, mediocre at best, crap at worst, rarely/never excellent

Maxell pro/broadcast (old stock) is the place to find actual Maxell-manufactured 8x media

[fritzi93]

I stand corrected on current Maxells.

Uhfgood, you're being too defensive.

Relax, everyone here was new once. And nobody knows everything. You asked a question that can't be answered without possession of the physical item, and I showed you how to answer it yourself, twice. [shrugs]

Where's Supreme2k when we need him? :P

[Supreme2k]

I don't know if you're implying that I'm the mugger, or that I will help this guy out, so I'll lean to the left a bit.



Uhfgood, you seriously need to grow thicker skin. No one was insulting you. Fritzi was simply offering advice and asking for clarification, which he went well out of his way to show you how to do it.

If you aren't really gone and actually return to this thread, simply re-read it and take the advice given. A excellent standard for your posts is to provide as much information as possible, but also keep it succinct and to the point.


As far as "brands" go, if possible, you should try shopping online. You get more for your money and a better selection. Places like rima or newegg can get you better discs like Taiyo Yuden and Verbatim for a fraction of the cost of those iffy "brand names" that you get in retail stores.

[fritzi93]

I don't know if you're implying that I'm the mugger, or that I will help this guy out, so I'll lean to the left a bit.

Nah, you're just a wee bit....blunt....occasionally. :P Maybe a bad joke.

Noahtuck posted a very restrained (for him) response on this thread, don't you think?

[Uhfgood]

Sorry, I tend to get defensive when I perceive some rudeness because I'm not as articulate as I need to be on technical forums. Sometimes I type before my brain gets done thinking.

The drive is a Sony DRU-700A (I can't remember 700 or 700A in any case it was a 2.4x double layer burner that I upgraded to the latest version that supposedly gives 4x double layer burn. In any case I've not used the DL capability.)

The version of nero i'm using (6) is actually software that came with the drive.

Okay so let me get this straight. I use the testing software on a burned disc? (Or do I do it on a blank disc)

[guns1inger]

Burned disc - you can only test after the fact.

That version of Nero is now 3 full versions out of date. This may not necessarily be a bad thing, as for my money Nero has been steadily going down hill since version 5.5.

For DVD burning there is only one free burning application - Imgburn - and it is about as good as they get, which is fortunate. Prassi ONES is about the only commercial package still available that I would put up against it. Nero has many know issues with DVD Video burning and compliance/reliability.

[lordsmurf]

Nero 6 -- some versions -- was really the last time Nero was good. It would burn passable (but still not 100% compliant) DVD-Video discs, much like some versions of 5.5 did. It was just starting to turn into bloatware at that time.

I still use Nero 5.5 and Nero 6 on some systems, RecordNow Max on a couple, then the rest (especially the newest ones) are all ImgBurn and Prassi ONES.

CDBurnerXP is good for data
BurnAware good for music.

Not used the VSO software much, but their burning program has a good fan base.

[Uhfgood]

Here is the image for the disc that was burnt up until the end.



notice that it worked pretty well all up until the end.

[Uhfgood]

I was going to post the "good" disc test results, however, the thing finished just fine, and the graph was "erased"



Did another testing of the same good disk. Notice how it finished. I guess I need to go back through all of those and see if I need to re-capture them or not.

It's possible I could simply copy the file over (assuming it copies over successfully) to my hard drive and then re-encode the video, and drop it onto a new disc.

I'd very much like to not to have to re-capture as it takes a long time (and I've got like over 20 hours of home movies)