Star Trek Voyager: whats the actual frame rate, 24p ? ... YES [RESOLVED]

[vhelp]

[RESOLVED] -- the series are 24p, Film, but are post-processed, etc. See my explantion way down below.



Season 6, Episode 1: Equinox: Part 2 -- I get reports of 30p instead of 24p

This is more a question of accuracy, I think. You see, I'm getting ready to battle it out with the dvd's (below) for their time expansion or compression aspects, but..

Today, I went on a shopping spree to find any Star Trek "franchise" series so that I could compare some of the difficult (ivtc) encodes I did on my analog captures vs. what is out on DVD sets. To my surprise, after I had ripped one of the discs, Season 6, Episode 1: Equinox: Part 2, I am getting a report of 30p frames. All frames are progressive, but at 30 frames per sec. So, I'm confused, because I thought the series was shot on film (well, you know what I mean) or the familiar 23.976 frame rate we often refer to.

I thought I was going to be for a real surpise battle with this series, thinking that the dvd's would still consist of the TEC (time expansion or compression) (a telecine manipulation aspect) but so far, this first rip has thrown a curve-ball at me. And because I hadn't done the complete set, I don't know if they are all this way or just this one episode. Heck, I don't know if they were consistant like this (30p) throughout the whole seasons, 1 through 7 for that matter.

So, I went to the imDB website, to see what the framerate was, but it did not report that info, other than that the series is 45 minutes (I verified that it was close to that on my dvd's, aprox 43m:50s) and that's about it.

So, now I have a theory, that if this is the case, (that they are 30p) then that could help explain (at least to me) that the broadcast episodes were based on 30p sources and the TEC was duable in this case for these series. Course, I realize that you can manipulate the telecine with 30p, 30i, 60p, 60i, 24p, etc. frame rates. But then again, each broadcast type series (whatever they may be, in this case it was the star trek franchise) have their "unique" and challenging TEC patterns. My encoded analog captures and crude decoded TEC are poor at best in comparison to the dvd set I have in comparison. I don't know..its all interesting to me, this time expansion/compression business.

Then, while trying to find a pic to demonstrate as an opening tease, I found this pic that shows interlaced. So, that threw yet another screw into this mix. So, I'm guessing that it has to do with the CGI graphics (the aliens) that went on in that scene though you can't see them in that pic, below. So, I'm guessing that there will be some battle to iron out in some scenes..prob from messy ones that they either missed or were out of time to complete, I don't know.



Can anyone who has already done the Star Trek Voyager series verify whether or not they are 30p or 24p, I would appreciate it. Maybe I have somethign funky going on in my dvd rip or dgindex process--I always select "ignore pulldown flags" because I expect to deal with telecine at some point in this endeavor.

EDIT 1: oops, I got the interlace/progressive names incorrect in the filenames.
EDIT 2: system crash
EDIT 3: now that I've had time to think about it again, the other explanation could be that the CGI in was in interlace and required the series or that episode to be in 30p throughout, being a mixture of 30p and 30i (or fields)

But I would like to know if they are all like this or not.

Thank you,
-vhelp 5122

[vhelp]

[UPDATE] -- problem is basically solved.

Ok. I figured out what's going on.

-vhelp 5123

[edDV]

Shot 24p or we would have heard by now.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112178/technical

[vhelp]

Thanks. Can you explain a little further how ? I mean, I'm showing 30 progressive frames (top/bottom field are same) in my analysis. I'm refering to the commecial DVD (first disc in the set of four) that I tested. Unless I have somethign broken in my editing, the frames are showing 30p frame rate and not 24p frame rate.

-vhelp 5124

[edDV]

30 fps film is almost never used. Movies are shot 24p and edited 24p then distributed as 23.976p progressive DVDs. Some TV series are processed that way. Most others are shot 24p, edited as telecined 29.97 and aired that way. DVD release can be 23.976p (remastered) or telecined 29.97 fps telecined.

I don't have the Star Trek Voyager series DVDs.

[FulciLives]

I thought I had read somewhere (I think a long time ago on this website) that STAR TREK - THE NEXT GENERATION had all of its effects done at 29.970fps and as a result it is not possible to IVTC back to 23.976fps (or at least not "cleanly").

Don't know how true that is and / or how it relates to VOYAGER

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[vhelp]

yeah, I wish I had a faster modem so I could upload a small .vob section so that someone could test it for me. Maybe I got something borgked, who knows. But running it through dgindex shows mostly progressive at 29.970 (or, 30p for short) and its confusing to me how they arrive at that frame rate in progessive if the origin is 24p. The motion seems fluid to me. I will have to do further tests on these. It's a shame no one is a fan of voyager on this forum boards, I know I am. Its a great series, and this eposide in questin was a good one. I did find some additional *other* oddities in my analysis.

-vhelp 5125

[vhelp]

Don't know how true that is and / or how it relates to VOYAGER

Its possible. As I mentioned above, I found other oddities I have not posted about, yet.

Actually, I just happen to have a dvd set of TNG It was one of the star trek sprees I collected--season 1
I think I know what you are refering about. I read somewhere about that too, but back then, I knew part of the issues, that: it was part film and part interlace (for CGI or special effects) back in those days..each (unique situation) to their respective ERA's, I guess. I was going to check a few episodes of TNG this evening, too, but look it the time, its now nearly 12:30AM, but I'm not tired, yet. Still, I can do some quick rip-n-check's and observe the fields. Personally, I liked all the star trek franchises. Now, I want to see if I can put them (as much of'em) on 1TB hdd (for wdtv purposes) along with other tv series, but I'm a long way off from that, I think.

But first I need to verify for sure if the Voyager series I have is 24p or 30p or that I have somethign borked in my setup.

-vhelp 5126

[edDV]

I thought I had read somewhere (I think a long time ago on this website) that STAR TREK - THE NEXT GENERATION had all of its effects done at 29.970fps and as a result it is not possible to IVTC back to 23.976fps (or at least not "cleanly").

Don't know how true that is and / or how it relates to VOYAGER

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

I had personal experience with the effects side of Star Trek TNG in the late 80's. It was done mostly at The Post Group in LA but some effects were farmed out and then integrated there. My company supplied some of the effects/compositing equipment but all effects back then were edited 29.97 fps. Same goes for the US Max Headroom and other productions done there at that time.

Later they got involved in effects for film as well. The final scene of Ghost (1990) was done on 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 video resolution gear and upscaled to film. Same for the electronic effects scenes in Flatliners (1990).

[vhelp]

Wait a minute. This is 30p, I'm so stupid. After examining the fields in my previous comments above, (top/bottom field are same) was detected.

Other bugs I found were:
* If 24p is true, then it looks like they managed to *fake* 30p through manipulating the framerate flag: the µs flag, maybe.
* I also found that they mixed in 3:2 telecine in certain scenes. Some space scenes (ships pass by) they are sometimes progressive, and sometimes 3:2 telecine--all within the 30p or 30i bounderies for smooth playback.

So, if someone wanted to restore back to 24p:
* I would guess that they have to do a bit of work to *undo* some of these odd things they applied to each episodes. You could possibly restore the 30p back to 24p by reseting the µs flag (if there is one) or just re-running it through a changeFPS() function in avisynth,
* and as for the 3:2 telecine, you could easily restore those back to 24p, and then
* re-link and re-sync them back together again in one smooth consistant 24p video.

I don't know. Might be a lot of work, might not be. This sounds like a job for some avisynth scripting, if you ask me.

Next, I'm going to have a look at the Star Trek TNG series, at least season 1, since that is what I have currently. But, my guess is that they did similar to these as well, but I'm not sure, since it is an older series.

-vhelp 5127

[edDV]

Wait a minute. This is 30p, I'm so stupid. After examining the fields in my previous comments above, (top/bottom field are same) was detected.

Other bugs I found were:
* If 24p is true, then it looks like they managed to *fake* 30p through manipulating the framerate flag: the µs flag, maybe.
* I also found that they mixed in 3:2 telecine in certain scenes. Some space scenes (ships pass by) they are sometimes progressive, and sometimes 3:2 telecine--all within the 30p or 30i bounderies for smooth playback.

So, if someone wanted to restore back to 24p:
* I would guess that they have to do a bit of work to *undo* some of these odd things they applied to each episodes. You could possibly restore the 30p back to 24p by reseting the µs flag (if there is one) or just re-running it through a changeFPS() function in avisynth,
* and as for the 3:2 telecine, you could easily restore those back to 24p, and then
* re-link and re-sync them back together again in one smooth consistant 24p video.

I don't know. Might be a lot of work, might not be. This sounds like a job for some avisynth scripting, if you ask me.

Next, I'm going to have a look at the Star Trek TNG series, at least season 1, since that is what I have currently. But, my guess is that they did similar to these as well, but I'm not sure, since it is an older series.

-vhelp 5127

I may rent Voyager from Netflix just to see what is going on. Which disk is this?

Most of this was probably remastered for DVD. But mixing frame rates is dangerous.

[jagabo]

This is why 120 fps is used in all those anime rips.

[manono]

I mean, I'm showing 30 progressive frames (top/bottom field are same) in my analysis. I'm refering to the commecial DVD (first disc in the set of four) that I tested. Unless I have somethign broken in my editing, the frames are showing 30p frame rate and not 24p frame rate.

How are you doing this analysis? How are you opening and examining the video?

You could upload the D2V without problem, so we could have a look to see if anything can be learned. But since this and the other Star Trek spinoffs have already been discussed ad nauseam, I don't know why you're so surprised and baffled at what you're finding. Some of what you've said is just nonsense.

[vhelp]

manono, originally, I wanted to know if the source was 24p or 30p because I am getting a 30p reading, and checking imdb didn't help. It would have stopped there but then I got more envolved in this figuring this all out. Now its a matter to know exactly what is going on in these series. Yeah, I have vague idea of whats going on, some of which I described.

I'm going to check to see if there is a later version than what I have, I'm currently using dgindex v1.5.2. If I find a later version I'll d/l it and re-run another .d2v file.

edDV, I don't think they mixed frame rates.

-vhelp 5128

[edDV]

imdb is poor at listing effects contributors because most are independently contracted and most of those are non-union so seldom get credited.

Looking through the company credits for "Star Trek Voyager:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112178/companycredits

Most listed Special Effects Companies are film, prop or makeup oriented but Pacific Ocean Post jumps out. They then were a 4:2:2 video compositing shop and used a lot of Grass Valley and Quantel equipment. Back in 1995 this would all have been interlace 29.97 fps.

[manono]

You conveniently neglected to answer my 2 questions.

I'm going to check to see if there is a later version than what I have, I'm currently using dgindex v1.5.2. If I find a later version I'll d/l it and re-run another .d2v file.

Even if you get the latest 1.5.4, the D2V itself won't change. When I suggested uploading the D2V, I meant to here, so we could have a look.

[jman98]

For whatever little this is worth... I am positive that I read somewhere that all Star Trek series except The Original Series and Enterprise were shot to videotape. Doesn't that make them 29.97 fps? I am no videotape expert, so maybe I'm wrong about that, but the info might be useful. The reason I remember reading about them being shot to videotape is that various sources have said that this means that there's no point in ever doing BluRay releases of those shows due to the poorer resolution of videotape.

[jagabo]

I was going to record an episode and take a quick look because all the Star Trek shows seem to be on TV all the time. But Star Trek Voyager doesn't seem to listed now?!

[yoda313]

there's no point in ever doing BluRay releases of those shows due to the poorer resolution of videotape.

Well they already had the original series on HDDVD and now on BLURAY. But was that shot on Film so had a higher source material?

It's a shame no one is a fan of voyager on this forum boards, I know I am. Its a great series, and this eposide in questin was a good one. I did find some additional *other* oddities in my analysis.

I am Voyager fan - for the most part. The early seasons 1-3 with Kes were a bit rough but as with all Star Trek sans Enterprise they eventually get their second wind by the third or fourth season - see TNG, DS9, and VOY as examples.

I am a Voyager Fan I just don't own any of the dvds to assist in your analysis. Sorry.

[edDV]

For whatever little this is worth... I am positive that I read somewhere that all Star Trek series except The Original Series and Enterprise were shot to videotape. Doesn't that make them 29.97 fps? I am no videotape expert, so maybe I'm wrong about that, but the info might be useful. The reason I remember reading about them being shot to videotape is that various sources have said that this means that there's no point in ever doing BluRay releases of those shows due to the poorer resolution of videotape.

Here is the approximate process that was used for Star Trek TNG (late 80's The Post Group) and Voyager/Deep Space 9 (mid 90's Pacific Ocean Post).

1. Studio shots were captured on 24p 35mm film in 4:3 (1.33 to 1 aspect) with Panavision cameras.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092455/technical
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106145/technical
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112178/technical
2. The film was transferred to D1 format 4:2:2 @29.97 fps.
* for TNG maybe only the effects scenes were transferred to D1. Common long form editorial was done on composite D2 in those years.
3. Editing and effects generation were done in D1 format @29.97. (TNG may have been partially D2)
4. Resulting edit master would be D1 tape (or possibly D2 composite for TNG).
5. Release to broadcast would have been on composite D2 or component DigiBeta Tape.
6. PAL distribution was done with electronic standards conversion.

If one were tasked to produce a DVD of these series, they could use the existing 4:2:2 edit master or go back to the raw film elements and rebuild the effects. This was done for the original late 60's Star Trek series that was originally edited on film with optical effects.

A problem for doing a remastered Blu-Ray version for Voyager or Deep Space 9 is the 4:3 aspect ratio.

[edDV]

As for 30p, it was common in the 80's-90's for translational element effects (element zoom, rotation or vertical pans) to be done with a simple blend deinterlace. Only the best equipment (e.g. Grass K-Scope, Digital F/X Composium or some Quantel) did a motion adaptive 60 field per second translational scale. So it is possible some scaled effects would appear to be deinterlaced 30p.

[vhelp]

I've been reviewing this situation since last light and its kept me pretty busy up to now.

How are you doing this analysis? How are you opening and examining the video?

I am creating a d2v file and opening them with avisynth script. Then, I open that script inside virtualdub and review them to determine if: interlace; progressive; or telecine pattern, setups for: by frames, or by fields.

You could upload the D2V without problem

manono, the d2v file is prob to large because I did a big chunk. And you are right, after d/l'ing the latest, v.1.5.4, it showed the same frame rate, 29.970 (but we like to round to 30 for space and typing purposes)


Hi jagabo, yeah, I think yoda313 said that they are on the "G" channel, GT or something like that.

But if you do find them and decide to capture them bare in mine they are time expanded or else compressed, so the telecine will not be the usual 3:2 pattern, but a more ellaborate pattern to fit the program within the shows' timeslot. I would say its a good guess that they are "compressed" because of the lack of "dups" and/or "blends" in the groups of fields that I observes so far, because the dup and blends mean they are adding to the timeline to extend the time to fit the timeslot--I know you know this, but others might not.

-vhelp 5129

[vhelp]

[UPDATE] -- resolved

EDIT: I made corrections in blue, my mistakes/revisions/etc.

As I've said a moment ago, I've been reviewing this situation since last light, and I think I finally have an idea of what is going on, now.

(I also did a few quick reviews of the TNG series, and man, they are a mess. These look like the raw cuts at the telecine level and etched to disc--how disappointing. I'll have to do further investigative work on these. I'm refereing the Season one set. Its possible that later in the series they got better, otherwise, I'm just speculating)

Ok. Back to original topic

If I understood edDV's explantion of Film vs. Video, etc., then I think that its possible that a bug is being realized here in the d2v file or when its created at the time of process. Versions used were v1.5.2 and v1.5.4 in these examples.
actually, there is no bug. I did further reading up on dgindex and found that it is doing exactly what is was intended to do, correctly. I was suppose to use the "Honer Pulldown flags" but did not in this case. However, re-runing with this correction showed the same effects, BUT, we know why, now. Well, I already knew why, but I was cought up in another unrealized setup issue, explained below.

But let me try and explain it as best I can. No disrespect intended, anywhere in this discusion.

Selecting the "Ignore Pulldown Flags" setup, and running dgindex to create the d2v file:

as the vob is read and decoded and the groups of patterns are determined, the detection routine processed a bad or stray field--a field that was part of an edit that was probably spliced in the 3:2 telecine sequence, but not at the correct 3:2 (PPPii) group level. The field in question could have been from a BFF or TFF. I don't know exactly, I'm only theorizing.this is the cause of the *stray* interlace showing up at those scenes, in fact, it was during a scene change, where these hickups usually take place.

But what I don't understand and is confusing me (when using this feature) is that when this option is selected, I should be recieving telecined video at 29.970 fps and I should be seeing 3:2 telecine patterns throughout (clean or dirty) not progressive *and* telecine video.another realized fault of my own, and now corrected, moving forward, I'll be using "Honor Pulldown Flags" for these inconsistant tv series

So as a result the process was getting managled every time it hit against one of these *improperly* cut fields (performed at the telecine level) and producing the problem.

Below is an excerpt of possible combinations of 3:2 telecine patterns when cuts are made around a scene change when scenes pattern is PPPii based off film:

anywhere one of those poorly cut fields were present, the sequence would reveal these possible patterns:
ie 1, PPPii PPPii PPPii ->- PPPii PPPii PPPii, ->- PPPii PPPii -- this is the GOOD cut, the rest below are bad.
ie 2, PPPii PPPii PPPii ->- PPii PPPii PPPii P ->- PPPii PPPii -- bad
ie 3, PPPii PPPii PPPii ->- Pii PPPii PPPii PP ->- PPPii PPPii - bad
ie 4, PPPii PPPii PPPii ->- ii PPPii PPPii PPP ->- PPPii PPPii -- bad
ie 5, PPPii PPPii PPPii ->- i PPPii PPPii PPPi ->- PPPii PPPii - bad

Note, in {1, through 5} depending on where in the 3:2 pattern the break/sceme is at at the time, between the cut start/end points, from Progressive -to- telecine -to- progressive again.

In {1} the cut was good.
In {2 through 5} the cut was bad, and both sides will not line up for proper restore

I have determined that a sample demo is no longer necessary since we know where the proble originated, me

Please accept my appoligies for the confusion and headacke I *may* have cause anyone in this discussion.

-vhelp 5130

[lordsmurf]

Thanks for the in-depth edDV -- I knew most of that, just not quite to the detail you've shared.

[vhelp]

[UPDATE] -- resolved. The series are Film, but I processed the d2v project incorrectly, and created the confusion.

Please see my explantions above.

My appoligies, and thank you all for your patience

-vhelp 5131