Best size and aspect for 'this' video?

[Kryzon]

Hello everyone,
I'm a bit insecure about which config would be best for this video i'm trying to burn to a DVD (I'm using Total Video Converter), so I was wondering if anybody could give me a hint on the right direction to take.

The video I'm converting is 704x400 in size, and according to MediaInfo, is 16/9 in DAR.

I have a 4:3 CRT television (which can reproduce both PAL and NTSC). I want this video to show up like commercial DVD movies do, with the black stripes of a LetterBox. I don't really mind if the stripes are embedded in the video itself or if they are generated by my DVD Player, as long as the entire video makes it onto the TV screen (which has not been the case, I have managed to burn a DVD and it did reproduce the letterbox in my TV, but the left and right extremities of the footage were left out in my TV. They simply go off-screen. When I play the same DVD in my computer the video strangely enough appears to be whole - meaning, the problem would be in the real-time LetterBoxing process I guess).

Here are two screens of possible size and aspect options you can choose while in Total VC:


In this screen you specify the settings for the "NTSC Mpeg DVD" profile before the actual conversion. What would be my best choices here? be in mind I don't want to compromise the video's original AR very much (and since DVDs don't accept 704x400 directly, I guess 720x480 would be my best choice, being the closest AR possible). What do you think?

As soon as the conversion is concluded, TVC opens up the Media Burner, a small application which authors the recently converted .mpg file(s) into VOBs. Here's the pickle, it gives you the following aspect options:

You simply mark the aspect and click Author and the application generates the Vobs and consequently burns the DVD. Again, what would be the best choice here?

Thank you for your time.

[manono]

...as long as the entire video makes it onto the TV screen (which has not been the case, I have managed to burn a DVD and it did reproduce the letterbox in my TV, but the left and right extremities of the footage were left out in my TV.

That's because of your TV set's overscan. Isn't it all there when playing it on the computer? To "fix" it, you'd have to add more black all around the video, something that I wouldn't guess some all-in-one app like the one you're using is capable of.

https://www.videohelp.com/glossary?O#Overscan

Everything you've ever watched on that TV set has been "missing" stuff from the sides.

[tomlee59]

Encoding to accommodate overscan is only sensible if you plan to hang onto that TV for a long time. If you are going to upgrade anytime soon to a non-CRT based monitor, then you will be annoyed at the "lost" area you produced with the black borders. Most CRT TVs have adjustments for vertical and horizontal height (sometimes you have to take the cover off to get at them, but they're there). These are set at the factory to produce liberal amounts of overscan deliberately. I would simply change the adjustment a little to reduce the amount of overscan, rather than change the way I encode things. As manono has pointed out, you've *always* been missing some video for as long as you've been watching things on that TV.

[Kryzon]

Well, "professional" DVD movies appear whole in my TV. I'm not sure it's related to overscan.

And you can crop the video or add black pads to every side (in that Video Crop and Pad tab in the first image), I just wouldn't know the amount.

Oh and are the configurations I used ok? I converted the original video to a 720x480, specified 16/9 in that AR setting in the first screen and 16/9 again in that Media Burner screen. But shouldn't one of them (probably the latter) be 4:3? meaning, I want the 16/9 video to show up full at a 4:3 screen by letterboxing?

[manono]

Well, "professional" DVD movies appear whole in my TV.

No they don't. Watch them on the computer and compare.

Oh and are the configurations I used ok?

For that particular source, yes.

But shouldn't one of them (probably the latter) be 4:3?

No. Letterboxing will be added by the player when being output to a 4:3 TV set. That will keep the aspect ratio correct. It's the same thing that happens when you play one of your "professional" 16:9 DVD movies.

[Kryzon]

I did some research, it does appear to be that damn overscan... as a last question, what are the possible ways to solve this (without damaging my TV set, that is!), like, how much black padding do I add in the left and right sides to help with the overscan?

And also, does that mean that everything I watch, even network shows, have overscan applied to them? no way to fix that too?

[guns1inger]

Well, "professional" DVD movies appear whole in my TV. I'm not sure it's related to overscan.

Actually, they do get cut off. It is a function of the TV, not the DVD. A very few DVDs do have small black borders, but the vast majority don't. Most film makers, and certainly all those that shoot for television, are aware of this and do not place anything of importance at the extreme edges of the frame. The only ones who still get caught out by this are people shooting home video who frame right to the edge, and anime fan-subbers who use the full width of the screen for hard-coded subs.

Simple comparison. Play the source video and the authored version on the PC and see if anything has been cut off. If it hasn't, the problem is overscan. If it has been cut off, the problem is your software.

And you can crop the video or add black pads to every side (in that Video Crop and Pad tab in the first image), I just wouldn't know the amount.

There is no absolute answer to this question. Overscan varies from TV to TV, so what is perfect for one may not be enough for another TV, or may be too much. General rule - keep your borders in increments of 16 pixels and this works best for the encoder.

Oh and are the configurations I used ok? I converted the original video to a 720x480, specified 16/9 in that AR setting in the first screen and 16/9 again in that Media Burner screen. But shouldn't one of them (probably the latter) be 4:3? meaning, I want the 16/9 video to show up full at a 4:3 screen by letterboxing?

If you want 16:9 then everything should be 16:9. If the player is set up correctly for the television, then the player will present 4:3 letterboxed and include any black bars that are needed.

[Kryzon]

Hmm, I just read that the OverScan area can be from 10% to 20% of the whole image.
Judging from that, 720 * 0.2 = 144 -> 144 / 2 = 72, and 72 would be the value I'd specify both for L and R pads.

Damn that overscan, it makes you feel like you've been missing something this whole time huh?

[guns1inger]

Hmm, I just read that the OverScan area can be from 10% to 20% of the whole image.
Judging from that, 720 * 0.2 = 144 -> 144 / 2 = 72, and 72 would be the value I'd specify both for L and R pads.

Damn that overscan, it makes you feel like you've been missing something this whole time huh?

No. Pand and Scan makes me feel like I am missing something. Overscan doesn't. Why ? Because I know that modern films and all television shoot with this in mind and nothing important happens there anyway. And because good television sets have small overscan areas anyway.

Hell, until an hour or two ago, you didn't even know you were missing anything at all.

[Kryzon]

True, gotta agree with you.
Is there a common rule for pad-size regarding overscan? from what you say, different television sets would have different OverScan sizes. I don't like the vagueness of the "about 4 to 5 percent of the picture" in VideoHelp's description of OverScan.

What would be the wisest choice in pixels, regarding this size?

(the top and bottom pads are easy to find out, just dividing the added up size of your side pads by the video's ratio)

[manono]

Is there a common rule for pad-size regarding overscan?

No, not really. You should probably get the resize/add borders from FitCD and test out different ways of doing it until you find what's good for your TV set. For example, for your earlier example of a 704x400 movie, FitCD gives this (using ITU resizing for an NTSC and 16:9 DVD):

LanczosResize(672,448)
AddBorders(24,16,24,16)

That says to resize it to 672x448, and then to add 24 columns of pixels to both the left and tright sides, and 16 rows of pixels to the top and bottom. That's with 2 blocks overscan set up in in FitCD. That's a common way that people do this kind of thing. When they think they have to do it. Which they don't. Because it's lame.

By the way, most people can lessen the overscan of their TV sets - sometimes to almost nothing - by gaining access to the service menu of their TV set. You just need the code for your particular brand and model to punch into the remote control. A search on "TV Service menu" may turn them up for you. Be careful though, because you can royally screw up your TV if not careful.

[Kryzon]

That's my biggest fear, to screw up my TV. I'd never forgive myself if anything happened to it because of me. I mean, were you corageous enough to use the Service Menu, manono?

For now I'll just add the pads, and BTW, thanks for seeking the values.

I think I'll start with 18 for the sides and 12 for up and down (following that 5% rule. I compared what was left off in the TV with a snapshot of the footage I took in the computer, it's about 5% really).

Thank you all for the assistance.

[freebird73717]

I haven't read the whole thread so this might have already been discussed but could it be that his conversion/authoring software total video converter is just authoring the discs wrong.

Try avstodvd or favc and see if either one of those fixes your problem. Of course use a re-rewritable disc.

[tomlee59]

Yes, freebird, you should've read at least the most recent posts. The guy is struggling with overscan in the TV. It's not an encode error. It's a common display characteristic.

To the OP: Understand that every TV has a different overscan value. Even within the same type, different sets will have different values. This is not a precision thing -- they just tweak it so that there's never a situation where there's underscan. Consumers complain about the appearance of black borders, but like you, don't notice (and therefore don't complain) if there's overscan. So manufacturers -- all of them -- adjust their CRT TVs to produce overscan.

The amount of overscan, not being precisely controlled, may vary with temperature and local mains voltage. Keep that in mind as you conduct your experiments. And again, if you ever upgrade your TV, all those converted videos will annoy you with the now-unnecessary black borders.

The fears of bricking your TV with the service menu are overblown, if indeed the overscan is adjustable that way (depends on the age and make of the TV; most actually adjust these with old-fashioned analog controls). Just don't change anything until you've RTFM. It's not rocket science, and sure is a hell of a lot easier than doing what you propose. Hell, in the time spent on this forum, you could've readjusted your TV, improved the convergence and focus, and built a nuclear reactor as a bonus.

[freebird73717]

Tom I know what overscan is. That very well could be (and probably is) the problem. But when he said that his commercial dvd's look right but his home made ones don't that leads me to think could be and authoring issue.

Wouldn't take long to encode and author a short clip to a rewritable disc for testing.

[manono]

That's my biggest fear, to screw up my TV. I'd never forgive myself if anything happened to it because of me. I mean, were you corageous enough to use the Service Menu, manono?

Like I said earlier, my current TV (a widescreen Sony HDTV) has no overscan at all. But yes, with an earlier CRT TV set I made some changes inside the service area. The main advice I'd give there is to write down the original values before you go and change anything. Like tomlee59 says, it's no big deal if you're careful. That area is supposed to be reserved for a licensed repairman with a service manual, but with the codes (and suggested tweaks) all over the Internet, even "laymen" like us can sometimes improve the picture considerably.

[Kryzon]

Alright guys, thanks for the suggestions (and the whole lot of info, tomlee) again.
I'm gonna compare the professional movie DVD with the way it shows on my computer just to remove the Encoding issue out of the question, as it almost looks like to be OverScan.
As to the TV side, I'm off to RTFM

Cya later.

[MysticE]

Encoding to accommodate overscan is only sensible if you plan to hang onto that TV for a long time. If you are going to upgrade anytime soon to a non-CRT based monitor, then you will be annoyed at the "lost" area you produced with the black borders...

Most new flat panels out of the box still overscan.

[lordsmurf]

Only the cheap crappy ones fail to overscan properly -- and I've not seen those in a few years now.

[MysticE]

Only the cheap crappy ones fail to overscan properly -- and I've not seen those in a few years now.

WTH does " overscan properly" mean? As opposed to 'improperly"? So you are saying that the non-crappy sets always show 100% whether from HDMI or component with both HD and SD sources?

As I said although many newer sets have ways to deal with it it (various terms are used - pixel mapping, 1 to 1 etc), these modes have to be chosen. They are not enabled 'out of the box'.

[filmboss80]

All of us who professionally shoot film and video always take overscan into consideration when framing shots. We never shoot to the absolute edge of the frame. Thus, you shouldn't have to worry about missing something just because your TV doesn't scan to the extreme edge, unless some clueless amateur made the movie. It's usually nothing to get worked up over, and no "padding" is necessary if dealing with professionally-shot material.

With that said, there is a purpose for letterboxing and pillarboxing. You've got to deal with the source, and if it was shot for widescreen, you should live with letterboxing on a 4:3 monitor, or else zoom in and cut off the sides. If the source is 4:3, you either live with pillarboxing or zoom in and cut off the tops and bottoms.

For doing your conversions, however, I would maintain the aspect ratio of the source and live with the output.