Unusual Scenario for DV capturing of Self Recorded VHS

[jcpost62]

I am a new member to this forum, but have been reading it for years. I recently purchased a Canon Elura 50 with Analog Pass-Through to do DV capturing of some self recorded VHS tapes. I am aware of the copyright protection feature that Canon cameras have vs makes like Sony. Canon shuts off the DV firewire stream when it detects "copyright protection". While I have read that Sony's TRV-22 will detect "copyright protection", but continues the DV stream. Don't know if that's true, but I did read it here on this forum. Anyway.

What has been happening is that for the most part the DV capture work very well. But occasionally and not on all tapes, a couple of scenes will be detected as "copyright protected". For example, I have captured 5- 6hour tapes with about 18-20 scenes on each tape and only about 4-6 scenes are blocked due to detection of "copyright protected".

Now the unusual part. If I knew that my self-recorded tapes were from other VHS tapes from before say 2000, I would just use a Sima box to deal with Macro-V. But, some of the scenes were captured to VHS from DVD between 2004 - 2005 (Before I discovered the miracle of DVDShrink). I am wondering if the DVD "copyright protection" signal was recorded to VHS and is still being detected now by my Canon MiniDV camera. If so,

1) Does anyone know if this time frame would mean that the newer DVD protection (other than Macro-V) would be involved?
2) I believe that a SIMA VIDEO COPY MASTER (SED-CM) would fix any Macro-V problem, but if the newer DVD protection is recorded on the VHS, would it be able to handle that as well?

Basically, I'm asking if anyone with a SIMA VIDEO COPY MASTER SED-CM has ever used it to fix "copyright protection" problems when analog dubbing DVD output? Today, a silly thing to do. I know.

PLEASE! I AM WELL AWARE OF THE LEGALITY OF DOING SUCH DUBBING. SO THERE IS NO NEED TO POST A LEGAL LESSON HERE.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

[filmboss80]

Heh-heh! Although I can't (or won't) offer advice here, I must say that the technique you described ought to win an award for best "Rube Goldberg" method of video piracy.

Very amusing.

http://www.answers.com/topic/rube-goldberg-1

[redwudz]

What you might be seeing is 'false Macrovision'. If you've seen the results of the older Macrovision, dark video, flickering to light, it may be that some of your video has same attributes as a Macrovision protected tape, and at at times this 'fools' the camera circuitry into thinking it's a Macrovision protected video. You may also have drifting color bars over the video if it has newer forms of Macrovision.

That type of Macrovision isn't some sort of encryption, it just messes with the video signal and makes it more difficult to get a clean copy. It inserts a signal just outside of the viewable part of the video. This can cause the AGC (Automatic Gain Control) of a TV or other device to trigger and vary the brightness levels. Worn video tapes or VHS decks could also cause this. Or it may be noise on the tape that triggers it. Using a stabilizer should correct or clean up the signal most times.

Macrovision was first implemented in 1984. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macrovision

I don't think you can transfer DVD type copy protection to a tape. It is a form of digital encryption and a tape is a analog format.

[orsetto]

Commercial DVDs carry multiple forms of invisible copy protection, both analog and digital. I have been thrown off a few times by similar issues before I realized the segments on the problem tapes were originally dubbed to VHS from DVD. While using an old-school VHS stabilizer will suppress DVD-based Macrovision enough to allow a VHS copy from a DVD, that VHS also picks up an additional "invisible" signal from the DVD which WILL be detected later when you attempt to back that tape up to DVD-R (as you've experienced, the DVD recorder will stop recording with a copyright alert). In such cases the only workaround is to proceed as if that VHS was in fact a DVD: you will need to use a DVD-spec stabilizer like a Sima or Grex. My Sima CT-200 did the trick, and certain brands of TBC also took care of this issue (the AVT-8710 worked, the DataVideo TBC-1000 did not). This "DVD-to-VHS-to-DVDR" process causes an allergic reaction in some older DVD recorders: I've found the Pioneer 520 and JVC DRM100 make horribly distorted copies of such tapes even with an external TBC. Newer recorders like the Pioneer 640 or 550, or the Phillips 3576, will give much better results with those "special" tapes.

[jcpost62]

orsetto,

EXACTLY WHAT I THOUGHT! Thanks for the reasonable response without the snide flaming. Capturing old VHS with a MiniDV camera has been covered to death on this forum. I don't know why someone would think its a "Rube Goldberg" method.

Thanks again,

[2Bdecided]

I don't know why someone would think its a "Rube Goldberg" method.

I think it's because, while some people are buying movies on BluRay, you're copying DVD > VHS > DV, and then I guess back onto DVD?

You know how you could get around the problem you're facing? Play the VHS through your TV, point your camcorder at your TV screen, and record the video off the TV with your camcorder.

Old school optical transfer. (Do I need to add a smilie?)

Cheers,
David.

[orsetto]

Since this is somewhat of a "hot topic", I suppose I should add that I was merely contributing a technical explanation and solution for what ought to be a very occasional backup problem. In my case, I would encounter it once in a while with compilation tapes composed of short bits from different sources. Such a compilation is considered personal fair use, and I think its perfectly fine to back those up to DVDR. I would not, however, technically or "morally" condone backing up complete movies (that were originally copied from a DVD to VHS) back to a DVDR. For one thing, there's really no point: almost any movie released prior to 1999 is available on "real" DVD at Best Buy weekend sales for $6.99. For another, while its possible to do, it isn't recommended due to signal degradation: the DVD to VHS dub is already sorta lame, when its backed up to digital again the cascading MV/CGMS redundant copy protection fouls the signal even more with many recorders (even if you use a filter to suppress it). Its really only worth doing to back up compilation tapes or out-of-print titles you only have access to from old "DVD to VHS" copies.

In other words, I wouldn't make a habit of it.

[orsetto]

Foxy Lady, if you're happy, we're happy. But you're missing the point: this thread is not about backing up commercial tapes you actually own, nobody can really argue much with that (especially if they're just average movies you don't need to be in perfect quality). The issue discussed here is VHS tapes that are NOT purchased originals, but were copied to VHS from old DVDs. Transferring this type of tape back to DVD again is problematic technically and a bit ambiguous morally. Overall, going third-generation from DVD to VHS back to DVD again is not recommended practice except for making "placeholder" dvds you plan to eventually replace with better versions. Its preferable to re-record such titles from cable TV or buy the DVD re-releases on sale. The corrupted third-generation signal involved in multiple transfers will either barely work, or create rotten DVDs, depending on your DVD recorder and VCR.

Backing up your first-generation commercial tapes is a different matter, using something like a Grex will usually result in a passable DVD-R transfer. I'd still recommend re-recording from a cable or satellite broadcast whenever possible, if you have access to such services: often this gives better results than passing an old Hollywood VHS thru a Grex-type filter. Most cable/satellite prints are of cleaner, restored quality compared to what was on VHS (although I've seen a number of them looking as bad or worse than poor VHS).