China’s own alternative to Blu-Ray: CBHD

[jimdagys]

I am in a backwater part of China. I haven't seen any Blue Ray disks or players. However, I wonder if Blue Ray is (illegally) available in Canton, the Chinese city that might just have this kind of stuff. If Blue Ray is available there, it will spread to the rest of China, regardless of whether it is licensed or not. Simple law of demand and supply.

[KBeee]

Having just returned from the supermarket, I'm starting to think food is a luxury item here too!

[DereX888]

Over and over again, it's been proven that Asian video market doesn't mean squat to North America or Europe.

This is true for consumers no doubt. I just can't stop staring at all the spindles of VCDs I have

VCD was primarily a Chinese format. It was vastly popular there compared to standard markets. This site, you, me, and most people here started making VCDs from the articles at www.vcdhelp.com. Of course, at the time DVD burners were $800 and blanks were $17 and I'm positive that was a huge factor.
.

Awww, I couldn't resist, too much BS in a single post, sorry disturbed1!

VCD has never been a "chinese" format. It was designed by Philips in USA and promoted in USA first (albeit it premiered in Germany) in the early 90's. Unfortunately (for us in America) it "caught on" only in Hong Kong (a UK territory at that time) and Korea (the normal one, not the sicko-commie one where they lived without electricity, food, movies and anything - but full of soldiers LOL).
To smaller degree it was also popular in Malaysia, Singapore and Japan (although LDs were still strong there until they were replaced with DVDs by the end of 90's).
That's ALL. Just a handful of countries.
When VCD entrenched on the market in the middle of 90's in those few countries, China at this time was still a backward post-Mao technological desert. They had 3 tv channels for crying out loud, no VCRs, no VCDs, no LDs, not even many people had cassette players
China didn't "jumped on VCD's bandwagon" almost at all, what they got there in mainland China was all from HK - even though they were already starting to be a main manufacturers of VCD and DVD players, the products they were making were still way too expensive for their own people at that time. Anyways it was already at the end VCD life (very end of 90's and begining of 2000's).
China came out with SVCD format only to show DVD Consortium that they are not kidding when they want their factories to be released from fees for using DVD format. No one knows for sure what would have happened if DVD Consortium wouldn't bow to them at that time.

When YOU, ME and others started to use VCDs for your own use it was 1997 at *earliest* (because there was no authoring software available commercially - albeit I think first VCD authoring soft, Philips' own, came out few years earlier together with Windows NT3, but nobody had CD burners at home at that time).
1997 was already a year when DVD debuted on the market and it was the end of VCDs.
AFAIR this website started in 1999 or 2000 as vcdhelp (although it says I joined in 2002, I was here under different nickname as one of the very first people). That's already past the death of VCD format as commercial media, and peak of the short-lived "home made VCDs" (due to the very low prices of CD burners only - which by 2002 or 2003 I'm sure everyone who wasn't on a welfare or working in a 3rd world country could already afford a DVD burner).

If this CBHD turns into something I can put on a $0.50 CD burnt with my $30 CD burner. Oops I meant $0.50 DVD and $30 DVD burner

Unless Blu Ray players, drop in price that is close to what CBHD would cost, I think it might stand a chance. In the end, if there are no players, there will be no consumers.

yup

[disturbed1]

Awww, I couldn't resist, too much BS in a single post, sorry disturbed1!

It's alright - even though you missed quite a few facts

VCD has never been a "chinese" format. It was designed by Philips in USA and promoted in USA first (albeit it premiered in Germany) in the early 90's.

I used Chinese format, in the sense that it did nothing in any other country, besides China. The Philips CD-I tanked in most places. China was one of the few countries that actually sold dedicated VCD players. 14 million units were sold in 1997 in China.

To smaller degree it was also popular in Malaysia, Singapore and Japan (although LDs were still strong there until they were replaced with DVDs by the end of 90's)
When VCD entrenched on the market in the middle of 90's in those few countries, China at this time was still a backward post-Mao technological desert. They had 3 tv channels for crying out loud, no VCRs, no VCDs, no LDs, not even many people had cassette players
China didn't "jumped on VCD's bandwagon" almost at all, what they got there in mainland China was all from HK - even though they were already starting to be a main manufacturers of VCD and DVD players, the products they were making were still way too expensive for their own people at that time. Anyways it was already at the end VCD life (very end of 90's and begining of 2000's).

See above. And for reference http://www.eetimes.com/special/special_issues/millennium/milestones/baichuan.html

China came out with SVCD format only to show DVD Consortium that they are not kidding when they want their factories to be released from fees for using DVD format. No one knows for sure what would have happened if DVD Consortium wouldn't bow to them at that time.

Search your facts again.

I mean if you are going to call bullshit on someone, at least do a google search

SVCD is a Philips format. China came out with CVD (Chao-Ji Video Disc).

[yoda313]

This is the reason I don't have any interest in AVC material. My Toshiba HD-DVD plays it just fine, but all of my other players support mpeg2, and most support xvid/divx.

But are these high def divx/mpeg2 players? That is the reason I have started to invest in avchd.

I have the hauppauge hd pvr and it records h.264 m2ts files. It makes avchd compatible dvdrs. THey play perfectly in my ps3. That is where I'm headed.

Now if your not into high def I can understand sticking to divx/xvid/mpeg2. However high def is the future and avchd is a way to acheive that without pricey bluray burners and blanks.

Now granted I wont' be able to play the avchd discs on anything but a well spec'd pc or a ps3/bluray player. But I can still downconvert them later should I want a sd copy of said material.

I think avchd has a place in the market right now. It should also be able to play on my wdtv media player - come to think of it I wouldn't need to downconvert it at all. I could just use the wdtv player and output via composite cables in sd and walla - I'm all set with the original files untouched..... Hmmm I'll have to try that out.

[adam]

China came out with SVCD format only to show DVD Consortium that they are not kidding when they want their factories to be released from fees for using DVD format. No one knows for sure what would have happened if DVD Consortium wouldn't bow to them at that time.

Search your facts again.

I mean if you are going to call bullshit on someone, at least do a google search

SVCD is a Philips format. China came out with CVD (Chao-Ji Video Disc).

This is incorrect, or at least an oversimplification. SVCD has a much more complicated history than this. The main confusion over its origin is that the ultimate term SVCD does not refer to any disc format, it refers to a hardware specification...yet the term SVCD referred to TWO different competing disc formats along the way in the development of that hardware standard.

China did get the ball rolling on "SVCD" and the purpose was to create a format on par with DVD that did not require them to pay royalties. There were three competing formats for the standard, CVD developed by C-Cube Systems, SVCD developed by the China Recording Standards Committee (the Chinese Govt.'s pick and the one they financially backed), and HQ-VCD which was developed by the Video-CD consortium which consisted of Philips as well as several other companies.

HQ-VCD and SVCD joined together and incorporated features of both into a NEW format but they just called it SVCD. The original SVCD format was the one sponsored by the Chinese Govt. so this NEW SVCD was the official pick, but manufacturers had already adopted CVD so there was no turning back. So the Chinese Govt. created yet a NEW format called Chaoji Video CD that incorporated all of the features of CVD, SVCD, and HQ-VCD. Then the Govt. filed for and received an IEC specification for "SVCD" which is not a disc format but rather a standard that hardware must adhere to in order to be considered an "SVCD player."

So what most people refer to as a SVCD is really a Chaoji Video CD, but a SVCD player is one that plays Chaoji Video CDs as well as Video CDs (2.0 and 1.1) and audio CDs. Because it is an SVCD player, the Chaoji Video CDs created for it became synonymous with SVCD.

As if all of this weren't jacked up enough, Chaoji Video CD, the ultimate disc format released, uses the initials CVD but one of the competing formats along the way was China Video Disc.... again CVD!!! The bottom line is that the player is called a SVCD player and when you author a disc for it you are either authoring a CVD (china video disc format) or you are authoring a SVCD (HQ-VCD + SVCD=compromised format) and whichever variant you choose you'd call it a CVD (Chaoji Video CD.) Anyone who has authored using I-Author can see what I mean.

In short, I don't think there is any way to argue that SVCD is not a Chinese format. The entire creation was sponsored and governed by the Chinese Govt. and intended to be adopted and marketed primarily to Chinese consumers. At most there were just some non-Chinese companies competing for an interest in the final Chinese disc format.

[MJA]

I never ordered anything from China...Never would, either. I try to avoid them like the plague.

LOL
zoobie, you've cracked me up
You just can't avoid "Made in China" products today.
Even if every device you have there in your house has a sticker saying "Made in [Japan or Europe or USA]",
you bet each one of them has at least few chinese-made components inside.
Open up any of them and see for yourself

I was shocked when I went to Walmart few months ago and checked the seafood freezer to find out most of it are "produced in china"
I know most of the electronics,hardware and stuff are made there but seafood.mann

[newnews]

VCD is not just only in China, actually in Asia. I believe CHBD will do same. Another thing to pinpoint is that China also produce high quality products however they are expensive too.

[DereX888]

SVCD is a Philips format. China came out with CVD (Chao-Ji Video Disc).

Yes of course I meant CVD as China's own format, and of course SVCD was pointless european Philips' labs design meant to replace VCD at the time when DVD was already taking entire world like a storm (I never understood what was the point of their SVCD).
I apologize, I was already going home and was a bit tired, hence my unintentional mishap.


As for "14 million VCD players sold in China in 1997" - I don't care what wikipedia says. At that time I travelled to China often (among other countries), and as this curious kid I always checked any electronics everywhere. I can tell you that nowhere in mainland China people had VCD players or used VCD formats at that time at all. It was Hong Kong where everyone had LD/VCD combo or standalone players, not China.
But I can probably explain it why nsomeone says something like this on wikipedia.
To communists in China, Hong Kong was always part of the country, it has never been any separate state or entity, they always consider it as part of China - only temporarily under UK "jurisdiction".
I am pretty sure the info about "14M of VCD players sold" is in regard of Hong Kong only, or with the nearby Canton area possibly, but certainly not anywhere in the mainland China. Today it counts as China, yes, but back then HK and autonomous industrial regions in Canton were completely different things than the rest of very backward technologically country China was.
Today they can say that there was that many VCD players sold in China, but the reality is it was NOT China but Hong Kong.
Another thing is: almost billion people there were making mere $5-$20 a month in a state-owned mainland-China companies/offices/factories/etc, back then they couldn't even afford $1-$5 movie on VCD, much less the players at all.
Anyways, I remember well I have never seen any LD or VCD players at any stores in mainland China back then, not even in Beijing IIRC. Its a big bull what wikipedia says

[jimdagys]

I need to pipe in here. I can tell you from observation that in the late 1990's in China, nearly anyone that owned a color TV also owned a VCD player. I can tell you that in 2005, there were many shops that rented exclusively VCD's.
Even today, there are many peasant families that only own a VCD player (not DVD player). Any store that is frequented by peasants still has many VCD players for sale.

[DereX888]

I need to pipe in here. I can tell you from observation that in the late 1990's in China, nearly anyone that owned a color TV also owned a VCD player. I can tell you that in 2005, there were many shops that rented exclusively VCD's.
Even today, there are many peasant families that only own a VCD player (not DVD player).

1997 vs 2005 in China is like comparing standard of living in 1950 vs. 2005 in USA, or maybe even 1900 vs 2000 in USA.
You've missed my point. I've seen brand new standalone VCD player in a HK store just recently too, it doesn't mean anything.

Yes, many people have VCD players today in China, and almost everybody have electricity 24/7 too.
But in 1997 those peasants you're talking about probably didn't even knew what roll of toilet paper is for - back then they used smooth rocks to wipe their asses with (I'm serious).

For example same village in 1995 had 1 color tv in the old "assembly hall" (which probably remembered emperors from Ming dynasty ), not everyone had B&W tv.
By 2001 everyone there had their own color tv (or almost everyone) and lots of electronics.
In 2004 the "assembly hall" was a completely new building with CAC, some people had cars (before - only bicycles and the rich ones had motor scooter thingies) and everyone used toilet paper Most young people even had computers too (again - I'm talking deep rural area, not city).
Just few years, what a difference.
(another thing is that about 1/3 of people disappeared - they migrated to cities like Qin Dao etc).
China really had astonishing technological jump forward in such unbelievably short period of time after she swallowed Hong Kong in just few years., I couldn't believe my own eyes.

I was shocked when I went to Walmart few months ago and checked the seafood freezer to find out most of it are "produced in china"
I know most of the electronics,hardware and stuff are made there but seafood.mann

Yeah, that's sick.
Corporations like Walmart, in search of that extra penny of profit, have killed many local businesses and industries.
I never buy at Walmart anyways. Everything they have there is Made in China, and it's the cheapest crap possible (and no, not everything Made in China is junk; chinese make excellent products too - but Walmart and such corporations never order them, because of that extra penny again... it is more correct to say "everything american corporations import from China is junk".)

[DieWahrheit]

Tuesday, February 03, 2009
NVD Format to Compete With Blu-ray and CBHD in China

The Chinese proprietary HD NVD (Next-generation Versatile Disc) format has reportedly made its commercial appearance in China last month, in an effort to compete with Blu-ray and the government-backed CBHD formats.
[..]
But even the Blu-ray format, which is trying to enter the Chinese market, is already suffering from piracy. The so-called "BD-9" discs (not a formal name but pirates seem to like it a lot) are currently sold in China for US$5.00-7.00. They are actually DVD-R discs that hold Blu-ray movies that have been re-compressed using the H.264 format. The pirates are using the AvcRec recording systems. AvcRec was created by the BD group and allows users to record HD contents with using H.264 onto current DVD-R media. The specific discs are compatible with some Blu-ray players. Strangely, Sony's PS3 is also capable of playing back BD-9 discs and the PS3 is the best selling BD player in China at this moment.

As a result, more than 500 Blu-ray titles are currently available in China now. The situation is definitely not acceptable by the studios and thus, they are also reluctant to start Blu-ray business in China.

In addition, the Chinese government has not approved the Blu-ray disc format yet so they do not need to worry about BD piracy, at least for now.

[..]

CBHD

[..]

The China Blue High-definition Disc (CBHD) format, which had been officially announced in 2007, is also trying to find a way to the Chinese HD market.

The format was backed by China High-definition DVD industry Association (CHDA), the Optical Memory National Engineering Research Center (OMNERC) the DVD Forum. The physical format of CBHD includes Chinese-owned intellectual property and it is based on Toshiba's HD DVD format.

The worldwide financial crisis had an effect in the format's adoption, a DVD forum representative told CDRInfo.

But China Government has decided to subsidize many industries in China to survive the crisis. The government has funded some manufacturers engaged in the CBHD format in order to accelerate the CBHD project.

At CES last month, Chinese delegation had meetings with a couple of Hollywood studios and have come into an agreement to launch CBHD titles in China, according to industry sources in the DVD Forum.

The format is based on Blue laser and it is protected against piracy using the AACS content protection schemes, also used by the Blu-ray format. The CHBD backers believe that this would convince the Chinese government to finally support their format. And with Blu-ray disc manufacturing still in early stages in China, the government has the chance to fight piracy by controlling the Blu-ray disc manufacturing right from the start.

Quelle: http://www.cdrinfo.com/sections/news/Details.aspx?NewsId=24785


SeeYa
DieWahrheit

[DieWahrheit]

List of the Steering Committee Members

Warner Home Video
Toshiba Corporation
Thomson Corporation (Technicolor !)
[..]
NEC Electronics Corporation
Memory-tech Corporation
Intel Corporation
Microsoft Corporation
Sanyo Electric Co., Ltd. Electronic Device Company

[..]

Quelle: http://www.chinahda.org.cn/en/mingd.html



List of the Principal Members

Singulus Manufacturing Guangzhou Ltd.
Dongguan Anwell Digital Machinery Co., Ltd.
DCA Optical Disc System Co., Ltd.
DaTARIUS Technologies GmbH
[..]

Quelle: http://www.chinahda.org.cn/en/mingd1.html




Why CHBD?


Quelle: http://www.chinahda.org.cn/en/why-cbhd.html




SeeYa
DieWahrheit

[DieWahrheit]

July 30, 2009
China Blue High-definition Disc (CBHD) launched as challenge to Blu-ray
[..]
The potential growth of the format in China has already become clear. In just a couple of months since it was launched, the cheaper all-Chinese CBHD players are thought to be outselling Blu-ray players at a rate of about three to one. The discs, priced at 50 yuan (£4.50), set consumers back about a quarter of the cost of a Blu-ray.
[..]
But the sudden emergence of the CBHD this year has shattered the peace. Atul Goyal, technology analyst at CLSA, said: “You are looking at a technology that comes with the backing of the Chinese Government and has the power to win the support of the big studios if they sense it is a way to make money in China. Everyone thought the format war was dead, but it is clearly still alive.”
[..]
But at least one other big Hollywood studio is understood to be considering support for CBHD, suggesting to some that it may creep out from China into neighbouring markets. CBHD players are available in Hong Kong and the cheaper format may prove attractive in other emerging markets in the region.

Although analysts believe that high- definition disc technology will only be a stopgap until the era of 100 per cent downloaded content, others believe that that time could be at least a decade away.
[..]

Quelle : http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/markets/china/article6732410.ece


China market: CBHD to face competition from Philips 2,000-yuan Blu-ray Disc player
Yen-Shyang Hwang, Taipei; Adam Hwang, DIGITIMES [Monday 15 June 2009]



China-based Shinco and TCL, currently the two vendors of CBHD players, are expected to face strong competition from Philips plans to launch a 2,000 yuan (US$293) Blu-ray Disc (BD) player in the China market in July 2009, according to industry sources in Taiwan.
[..]

Quelle: http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20090614PD200.html

See also:

http://www.chinahda.org.cn/en/why-cbhd.html
http://www.chinahda.org.cn/en/mingd1.html


SeeYa
DieWahrheit

[DieWahrheit]

Industry Chain of CBHD

[..]
It is well known that China is the country with the largest yield of DVD discs. Chinese manufacturers produce around ten billions DVD optical discs every year, which is about 30% of global yield.
[..]
In conclusion, China has a powerful foundation of manufacturing red laser optical discs. For the compatibility of DVD discs and CBHD discs, the DVD production lines shall be revised a little so as to be capable to produce CBHD discs. It will shorten the development period and save the cost. Therefore, CBHD meets the requirement of Chinese industry, the market of HD products and the sustainable development of Chinese optical disc industry.
[..]


Quelle: http://www.chinahda.org.cn/en/why-cbhd.html


SeeYa
DieWahrheit

[DieWahrheit]

CHBD Player from Toshiba

On the following Site you find a description from a CHBD-Player:

[..]
In this report, the model of this CBHD player is TCL THBD-1008
Currently, three models are available in Chinese market, they are TCL THBD-1008, Shinco CBHD-9000 and THTF CBHD-0002.
[..]

Quelle: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16893679


The TCL-Model is more or less similar with other Toshiba Players! The following tries to explain why:

TCL, Toshiba to jointly make appliances in China
(Agencies)
Updated: 2004-11-05 10:37

Toshiba Corp. and TCL International Holdings Ltd. of China signed a contract Thursday to jointly manufacture and market household appliances in China, Toshiba officials said.

[..]
Toshiba hopes the venture will boost its share in China's appliance market to 10 percent from the current 1 percent, according to the officials

Quelle: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-11/05/content_388927.htm



18 Aug 2008
Toshiba acquires remaining 10% in its JV with TCL

Japanese electronics giant Toshiba Corporation announced it had bought the remaining 10% stake in its household appliance joint venture with TCL Corp for around ¥200 million (about US$1.83 million), according to a source from Toshiba Corp.

Prior to this move, Toshiba owned 90% stake of the joint venture, Toshiba HN Manufacturing (Nanhai) Co.

An unnamed source said this move was due mainly to disagreement on management practices between the two companies, and the assignment of Toshiba's technical patent.

[..]

Quelle: http://www.hktdc.com/info/vp/a/elec/en/1/6/1/1X04IXLO/Toshiba-Acquires-Remaining-10-In...V-With-TCL.htm


Thursday, April 23, 2009
TCL and Shinco Ship First CBHD Players in China

[..]
Li Dongsheng, chairman and president of TCL Corp., believes that the company could sell 10 million CBHD players this year. Shi Wanwen, vice-president, TCL, said high-definition televisions have got a great boost in China in recent year and its accumulative shipment is expected to reach 70 million by 2011, creating a huge market for CBHD players.
[..]

Quelle: http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=25238




SeeYa
DieWahrheit

[pchan]

When the Jedi managed to defeat the rebelion and they thaught it was the end. Then came order "66." Sony put out HD-DVD and they thought it was the end. Not yet. If there is cheap HD-DVD palyer, media and burner, it may just take off like a wild fire.

Yap.. foods are Made in China... too. It's so devastating when there is contamination... e.g. melamine.