Camcorder upgrade, pref w/ progressive capability less than $1000 budget ?

[vhelp]

Summer is nearly here, and in my town, there are lots of festive entertainment, and I like shooting them whenever I can in my free time. There's the parks; fairs; track; outdoor music concerts; and so on and so forth. And I want to get back into the (directors) action shooting all these events. Well, I will try and make time. Anyway.

I thought I would ask the question since I'm looking for an upgrade from my last cam, a canon TRV-22, still in good shape, but no longer practicle in terms of "progressive" or film-look.

At the moment, I am researching various facts and things.

1. What I'm looking for is a cam that can shoot decent Progressive frames, be it 30p or 24p or 60p
2. or, would consider those that shoot with telecine, (interlace) so long as you can restore back to 24p or progressive-x
3. I am hoping to at least view some of them at BestBuy in person

As far as {2} goes, I'm not sure about. I think I've read various places where there was talks about some cams that shoot telecine, aka interlace with pattern-mappings like 2:2 or 3:2 or other mappings. I guess I wouldn't mind this if all it takes is a simple restore back to progressive frames in the end. 24p would be better, but I'd be willing to go with 30p as long as it close-to-true progressive.

What I would like to do is take a run down today and visit my neary BestBuy since they have them all arranged and I can easily review them in my hands etc. I would rather get the opinions and facts from here since I trust the members here more than I do in those sales people on the floor. (I was there yesterday and they were trolling (like CC salemen were doing recently) and quite frankly, want to avoid any potential missinformation) I tried to load up the best buy websites but over my dialup and win98 system, these pages are just not loading or loading partially and hanging my browser at times, to the point of boardome or I loose my interest. So I'm hopping to avoid that this time by asking here.

I'm not looking for professional equipment, cause I have a small budget.

Criterias:
1. My budget is $600 dollars, unless something sparks my interest/persuassion, could go higher to $1000
2. minimum resolution 720x480, or higher
3. prefereably non-avc/avchd/mpeg4, though I would rather go with mpeg-2/.mts if necessary
4. my goal is to obtain progressive frames, either at shooting or in post, etc
5. storage: tapes or sticks/flash drives etc, doesn't matter
7. if online is the only way, (provided links) I would consider browsing them as a last resort (at work)
6. ask any other questions if it will help narrow down closer to a model

Thank you all in advance,

-vhelp 5090

[racer-x]

Canon HV20/30/40. Either one will fit your needs and can be had for around $500 or less..............

[vhelp]

My goal was to shop around in stores that I can walk into and review in person. Are these available at my local BestBuy store ? or were you refering to online prices ?

I am considering the HV30 however. But, I haven't found decent info on the low-light rating. Pesonally, I like grain, the good kind. I don't want a video that has no grain--don't want mpeg looking vids..thanks.

-vhelp 5095

[Marvingj]

How about Panasonic HDC-HS9 AVCHD.

[vhelp]

I did want to ask a followup question: what would be the comparable to the hv20/hv30 series ?
(beside's Marvingj's suggestion--thanks)

I mean, these two are the highest talked about HD cams I come across a lot..baring in mind that I am specifically looking for [u]Progressive[/b] (including pulldowns--are ok for my needs) in 24p, 30p, and 60p, etc.

If I could pick up (at bestbuy) an HV30 for under $600, I'd prob just go and get it and be done with it. But there's still a lot of other things to considers, feature-wise. I would still like to use tape as an option. SD cards are getting cheaper, I believe..and an 8gig stick could be had for $19 buks, etc.

-vhelp 5097

[edDV]

Your listed computer is weak for HDV and nowhere close to AVCHD capable. Keep that in mind.

Why progressive?* You would also need a heavy $200 tripod.

Still the HV30 seems closest to your needs. You can always shoot DV or shoot HDV and output DV.

I'd suggest you get an HV30 then test shoot an event 4 ways: 1080i HDV, 1080i HDV exported 480i DV, 1080p/30 and 1080p/24. Then see how the edit goes and the post edit results in HD and in DVD format.

What is your monitor?


*60p could be hand held similar to 29.97i(60i) but the cheapest quality 60p cam would exceed $3K and be 720p.

[zoobie]

tripods aren't used because they cost more than the cam

[vhelp]

Why progressive?* You would also need a heavy $200 tripod.

All my video cams are interlace, and after so many years of tribulations dealing with this format in all my cams, for various viewing purposes, including broadcast contents, etc., its time I finally move up to Progressive filming. We can all dream. And we all'ov had the same basic dream: to shoot progressively. I realize that viewing devices (tv's) are getting better (though slowly) I do not want to rely on their processing of my (interlace) videos. I prefer to give it something that it (the tv or viewing set) does not have to mingle up just because it is still believed to be a better viewing presentation. And, not everyone's videos are suppose to be Interlaced just because of the various beliefs. I like progessive, period

OT: How was the honneymooners shot, because i thought they were interlaced ? but they are not :rolly: at least on the ones I captured (analog cabletv) back in Jan/09's marathon they are interlaced, but seem to be Time Expanded, and when processed, are Progressive, hmm..

Appreciate everyones comments.

-vhelp 5098

[edDV]

OT: How was the honneymooners shot, because i thought they were interlaced ? but they are not :rolly: at least on the ones I captured (analog cabletv) back in Jan/09's marathon they are interlaced, but seem to be Time Expanded, and when processed, are Progressive, hmm..

Per Wikipedia, the honneymooners began in '51 as a segment on a Dumont live variety show. In '52 the show moved to CBS but still aired live from the Dumont studios. Live 3 camera switched interlace video went to air but was also imaged to film as a Kinoscope.



"Gleason utilized the Electronicam TV-film system, developed by DuMont in the early 1950s. As a result of the superior picture and sound quality afforded by the Electronicam system, episodes of The Honeymooners were much more suitable for rebroadcast than some other shows of the era."

In other words, the film was imaged off a prism rather than just filming a TV monitor like a normal Kinoscope. Video tape was invented in 1955 but didn't get wide use until the sixties.

Electronicam System


The Amos and Andy Show was the first to shoot non-live in Hollywood using 3 camera 35mm film starting in 1951. The I Love Lucy Show adopted this technique so that production could be moved from NYC to LA when Lucy became pregnant. Multiple shows could be filmed and then later aired at scheduled times.

[edDV]

Why progressive?* You would also need a heavy $200 tripod.

All my video cams are interlace, and after so many years of tribulations dealing with this format in all my cams, for various viewing purposes, including broadcast contents, etc., its time I finally move up to Progressive filming. We can all dream. And we all'ov had the same basic dream: to shoot progressively. I realize that viewing devices (tv's) are getting better (though slowly) I do not want to rely on their processing of my (interlace) videos. I prefer to give it something that it (the tv or viewing set) does not have to mingle up just because it is still believed to be a better viewing presentation. And, not everyone's videos are suppose to be Interlaced just because of the various beliefs. I like progessive, period

You may like watching professional progressive video but you haven't mastered shooting at 24p. Most community colleges offer a basic film class. 24p takes a picture at 40% the rate of standard interlace video so images can get shakey and stepped. The 24p camera needs to be set on a tripod and depth of field needs to be narrowed with special lenses to blur out the jerky background. Pans and zooms should be avoided.

Heavy tripod needed to prevent picture shake


Film style lenses and focus follow system needed to narrow depth of field (blur backgrounds).


Other exposure tricks help hide the normal jerkiness of 24fps.

30p updates at 50% rate so has many of the same issues.

The good thing about the HV30 is you can experiment with all three frame rates and use the best for the shooting situation.

My bet is you will return to 1080i for anything hand held.

[edDV]

Here's a Panasonic HVX-200 equipped for 24p with lens adapter, matte box, focus follow and barn door lens hood. This would be perfect for shooting commercials or "films".

[edDV]

Here's a similar setup using a Canon HV20.

[zoobie]

hilarious shot of that hv20...it looks like that equipment is worth about 3 times as much as the cam
with a single handle on that tripod and no LANC, looks like you'd have to be really familiar with the controls on the camera itself to get smooth pans, tilts, and zooms all at the same time

I took an intro course at my CC and a philosophy of film class at my state university
they had tiny lens 16mm film cams...way before these modern-day video cams
they mentioned and showed some of the French film-maker François Truffaut who later went on to star in Close Encounters of the Third Kind

[edDV]

hilarious shot of that hv20...it looks like that equipment is worth about 3 times as much as the cam
with a single handle on that tripod and no LANC, looks like you'd have to be really familiar with the controls on the camera itself to get smooth pans, tilts, and zooms all at the same time.

You are talking interlace TV technique there. With 24P you avoid pans, tilts and zooms as much as possible during a take. Stick to locked shots when possible. The big problem is focus follow since the depth of field is so narrow with these cams. In union production a separate operator follows focus as the actors move in the frame. The actors stay on their marks. The camera operator's job is to maintain the framing. A third person, the Cinematographer designs the shot and instructs the other two plus coordinates with the lighting director, and so it goes.

[greymalkin]

wow..I never knew 24p put so many additional limitations and the necessity of so much "trickery" to get good film, it makes you wonder if it's really worth it instead of going to 60p..it's got to be more than just a data size issue?

[edDV]

wow..I never knew 24p put so many additional limitations and the necessity of so much "trickery" to get good film, it makes you wonder if it's really worth it instead of going to 60p..it's got to be more than just a data size issue?

60p is great but camcorders are expensive and only available at 720x480, 720x576 and 1280x720*. The JVC models are the more interesting but cost >$3000. ATSC, DVB and BluRay only support 50p/60p at 1280x720. If you want 60 motion increments per second and 1920x1080 you need to shoot 1080i.

There is also entrenched commitment to 24p in the production industry. Their goal is the steppy, narrow depth of field "film look". Producers like 24p since it allows a direct path to "NTSC" and "PAL" distribution.


* Unless you go way upmarket to RED or HDCAM-SR.

[poisondeathray]

60p is great but camcorders are expensive and only available at 720x480, 720x576 and 1280x720*

Sanyo VPC-HD2000 can shoot 1080p60 , but it's pistol grip, weak image stabilization, and video image quality is not as crisp
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Sanyo-Xacti-VPC-HD2000-Camcorder-Review-36280.htm#

I think another problem is that blu-ray format doesn't support 1080p60, so your only option is HTPC.

Nice info on shooting edDV, looks like I need to look for some classes offered in my area

[edDV]

1080i is an attractive mode for normal shooting. Modern digital intermediate formats allow conversion to 1080p @59.94 where needed for filtering or effects or allow straight 1080i processing for broadcast or Blu-Ray.

[zoobie]

how do they get away with handholding 35mm film cams or is mixing film and video @ 24p apples and oranges?

[edDV]

how do they get away with handholding 35mm film cams or is mixing film and video @ 24p apples and oranges?

24p film now gets transferred as 24p to either 2kx1k or 4kx2k as digital data. We are talking the big boys here.

In the recent past, film was transferred to HDCAM 1440x1080i with telecine. Those tapes are the normal for current TV series or TV transferred movies.

Many TV series are converting from film to HDCAM acquisition for economic reasons. HDCAM is either 8bit YCbCr 144Mb/s 1440x1080i or HDCAM-SR 10-12bit RGB 440-880Mb/s. The latter is reserved for theatrical movies or a few high end TV series production.

[edDV]

how do they get away with handholding 35mm film cams or is mixing film and video @ 24p apples and oranges?

They can hand hold 24p film cameras but the result is similar to jerky home movie 8mm or Super8 at ~18fps. Look at pre ENG historical news clips that were shot 24fps hand held.

Professional directors demand Steadicam for most hand held. Many live 1080i/29.97 TV series producers (e.g. awards shows) demand Steadicam for better real time transcoding to the world market.

[zoobie]

interesting...
thanks for the info, ed

[Cornucopia]

hilarious shot of that hv20...it looks like that equipment is worth about 3 times as much as the cam
with a single handle on that tripod and no LANC, looks like you'd have to be really familiar with the controls on the camera itself to get smooth pans, tilts, and zooms all at the same time.

You are talking interlace TV technique there. With 24P you avoid pans, tilts and zooms as much as possible during a take. Stick to locked shots when possible. The big problem is focus follow since the depth of field is so narrow with these cams. In union production a separate operator follows focus as the actors move in the frame. The actors stay on their marks. The camera operator's job is to maintain the framing. A third person, the Cinematographer designs the shot and instructs the other two plus coordinates with the lighting director, and so it goes.

Except, the afforementioned digital video cams don't really have shallow DOF because they use 1/3" or 2/3" imagers, as opposed to Full 35mm imagers. To get them to use a shallower DOF, they need a 35mm lens adapter contraption that re-images for the correct imager size, which drops image quality and light level and adds bulk and complexity and more difficulty with back-focus. Lot's of compromise. Shoot--you would do better with an extra ND filter!

Otherwise, I agree with you.
Still, there's lots to be said for the film look, and it isn't that difficult to learn how to operate with those constraints.
What I like in particular about "the film look" is the finely-crafted wider (or wider-seeming) dynamic range.

Scott

[2Bdecided]

1. What I'm looking for is a cam that can shoot decent Progressive frames, be it 30p or 24p or 60p

The difference between 24p and 60p is as great as the different between colour and black and white.


So your question is like "What I'm looking for is a cam that can shoot decent video, be it colour or black and white - I don't mind".


You need to know if you want the "film" look, or the "video" look, or to have both available, before you start shopping.

Most people generate 60p (usually 1280x720p60) by deinterlacing 1080i60. There are affordable 720p60 and 1080p60 cameras, but they're not as good as the HV series. Good deinterlacing is a pain, and very good deinterlacing is very slow with HD - but it can be done.


As others have pointed out, there's no consumer media that will deliver 1080p60 to your TV - and shooting 1080p24 is a very different thing. You don't need all those strange semi-professional contraptions posted by edDV - there are plenty of HV20 users shooting 24p without all that - but you do need a very different shooting style.


You should go HD, and get a good HD video camera.

I bet very soon there will be good 1080p60 cameras, but not just yet it seems.

Cheers,
David.

[edDV]

Except, the afforementioned digital video cams don't really have shallow DOF because they use 1/3" or 2/3" imagers, as opposed to Full 35mm imagers. To get them to use a shallower DOF, they need a 35mm lens adapter contraption that re-images for the correct imager size, which drops image quality and light level and adds bulk and complexity and more difficulty with back-focus.

An alternate optical strategy is to use a large sensor digital camera with 1080p/24fps video capability. The Canon EOS 5D MkII is being used by some for budget advertising production or B-roll. Pro is lens choice and narrow depth of field. Downside is poor audio and heavy compression in video mode. This still requires a stable tripod to be useful.



A shoulder held rig. It takes a good cameraman to hold this steady.

[vhelp]

I want to go on saying first, that I am by no mean a professional. I don't plan on competing against the pros, whome-ever they are. I just want to continue shooting last minutes special events as they happen, like I used to with my TRV-22 and other cams. Only this time, with much better equipment and 24p/30p/60p options.

( Still, the above info and then some makes for a good basic beginners starting place. And could lead the board hosting something like a "Amature Video Shoot" (not exactly like the one hosted back in 2004, but completely different and this time, for no money--only inexperiences amatures going the distance) where people take their basic video equipment and make close to professional videos, showing how good one can make even the cheapest video equipment and coming out with hollywood like video quality, from panning to tripoding to scene to anything and everything that makes a video look like it came from hollywood or commercial productions, etc. Course, this means cheap cams, not something over, say, $1500 dollars in equipment. We would just want to see how far one can go to make it look professional, no cheating or anything, and no actaul profesionals sneaking in like the last time. Well, it's an idea. )

edDV, these are all great info/faq, etc., many of such I pondered over the years I own many interlaced dv cams.
One of the first things I learnt about "good qualty" video was tripod. Its essential. I know that, and have plans of my own and then some. However, I don't think you'll catch me postng any videos of hand-held footage. Also, I realize that tripoding too, is an art and takes some skill to master, each tripod to their unique features and limitations, and the user to which it goes with, etc.

However, my bet is on the tripod and skills behind one. I believe that the tripod does not have to be so profesionally designed that it would mean you aren't pro or the likes. If you've got a good tripod and can coordinate your footage, etc., you can turn out great looking videos. The problem, however, is how you build your videos, or should I say, story board. But the key (IMHO) is the tripod and how you use it..but *NOT* the label behind such a tripod. Again, as noted above, this would make a good suggestion for a future hosting of amature videography.

Video is an art. It takes planning, and a set of critiers, and many other aspects that go into a video from shot to finish.
But, my intention is stickly amature, though I'd like to look or product finished work, with the impression of profesionalism or something close to it. I'm sure you know what I mean

-vhelp 5100

[Cornucopia]

vhelp,

the thing about tripods is you need one that can be both rock-solid when not moving, and SMOOTH when moving. That's why pro ones are more weighty (that and the need to fully support heavier burdens), and why the better/best ones have true fluid heads and smart/ergonomic means of locking/unlocking and adjusting tension/inertia. So, yes, it makes sense to devote a certain percentage of your budget on a decent tripod--rule of thumb: the better the camera, the better the tripod you'll want; the worse the camera, the better the tripod you'll need!

edDV,
those last shots are like what Aardman films do for their stop-motion claymation stuff (Wallace & Grommit, etc). Very cool; wonder if the video can be output prior to compression, though.

vhelp,
nothing magical about 24p. What's more magical is the technique behind the pros' use of it. Kind of "the artistry growing with having to learn to work around limitations" sort of thing.

Scott

[greymalkin]

you can get the HV20 refurbished from Canon for $399 woooha!

http://estore.usa.canon.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10051&s...&top_category=