Capture on Mac - read DV on PC?

[maveni]

Hello folks, I have a friend who has a Mac, but has an expensive video app that only runs on PCs. He purchased Parallels specifically for this program, thinking he could capture from his mini-dv camcorder via Firewire under Parellels. But of course, Parallels doesn't recognize the Firewire port.

My understanding of the camcorder DV format was that it's platform independent and capture apps simply copy the DV file to the computer without actually converting or encoding the video. I was hoping he could capture the DV file with iMovie, then read the DV file under Windows. I'm hoping that if I changed Apple's .MOV container name to a Windows .AVI container, the underlying video would still be the platform independent DV and be read by either system. Hope this isn't too confusing.

Does anyone think this may work? I'm obviously trying to avoid having to re-encode the file. Any and all help is really appreciated.

[JohnnyMalaria]

You would hope that it would be simple since, as you say, what comes from the camcorder doesn't care what type of computer it is being sent to. Sadly, Windows-based applications stuff it into an AVI file and Apple programs stuff it into a MOV file. They are mutually incompatible so you can't just rename them. Instead, you have to convert them. Apple's Quicktime on a Windows machine can convert (the Pro version) but it does so in a stupid, slow way (each DV frame is decompressed and then recompressed instead of just repackaging it).

A few programs on each platform can capture/edit etc in a true raw DV format - the files are just bit-for-bit copies of the camcorder's output. I don't believe iMovie is one of them. I don't know if Quicktime will convert MOV to raw without recompressing. Final Cut Pro is one app that does work with raw DV files (though it seems to add extra information to the start of the file which defeats the point) and our program will let you convert raw DV files to AVI (without the recompression part).

Sadly, there isn't an easy solution expect for Boot Camp (my knowledge of this is dangerously lacking).

[minidv2dvd]

partly right. no encoding is done during the transfer but the avi can be wrapped in a container. so.... the end result file is usually one of three types - I, II, or raw - depending on the application used to do the transfer. pc programs normally use type I or II. the mac if i'm not mistaken uses the raw format in a .mov container. there are pc programs to change the "wrapper", i don't know if the mac has similar.

[maveni]

partly right. no encoding is done during the transfer but the avi can be wrapped in a container. so.... the end result file is usually one of three types - I, II, or raw - depending on the application used to do the transfer. pc programs normally use type I or II. the mac if i'm not mistaken uses the raw format in a .mov container. there are pc programs to change the "wrapper", i don't know if the mac has similar.

That's interesting -- a program to change the wrapper (without re-encoding) would be great. Do you or anyone else know of such a program?

[maveni]

A few programs on each platform can capture/edit etc in a true raw DV format - the files are just bit-for-bit copies of the camcorder's output.

Thanks for the info. Do you know of any programs for each platform that can capture bit for bit? If not could you point me in the right direction?

[JohnnyMalaria]

Final Cut Pro (FCP) can capture raw DV on the Mac. Our software (see signature) can read/write raw DV and convert to/from AVI. I'm pretty sure Quicktime Pro can convert MOV to AVI but the conversion is clumsy (full decompression and then recompression). Avid have a cross-platform (and expensive) app that can handle raw DV.

The cheapest and quickest solution is Apple's Boot Camp that lets you put XP on the Mac. Unlike Parallels, Boot Camp lets you run Windows exactly as on a PC rather than virtually, hence the FireWire will work.

[edDV]

You would hope that it would be simple since, as you say, what comes from the camcorder doesn't care what type of computer it is being sent to. Sadly, Windows-based applications stuff it into an AVI file and Apple programs stuff it into a MOV file. They are mutually incompatible so you can't just rename them. Instead, you have to convert them. Apple's Quicktime on a Windows machine can convert (the Pro version) but it does so in a stupid, slow way (each DV frame is decompressed and then recompressed instead of just repackaging it).

A few programs on each platform can capture/edit etc in a true raw DV format - the files are just bit-for-bit copies of the camcorders output. I don't believe iMovie is one of them. I don't know if Quicktime will convert MOV to raw without recompressing. Final Cut Pro is one app that does work with raw DV files (though it seems to add extra information to the start of the file which defeats the point) and our program will let you convert raw DV files to AVI (without the recompression part).

Sadly, there isn't an easy solution expect for Boot Camp (my knowledge of this is dangerously lacking).

Interesting. I've refused to buy Quicktime Pro for both PC and Mac but I assume Apple is playing a disruptive role to make the Mac to PC transition difficult ( non-political correct "difficult" means impossibe or gaming). This is why I refuse to buy Final Cut for my Mac since it seems to be a roach motel. Never trust Apple for format neutrality.

[maveni]

Final Cut Pro (FCP) can capture raw DV on the Mac. Our software (see signature) can read/write raw DV and convert to/from AVI. I'm pretty sure Quicktime Pro can convert MOV to AVI but the conversion is clumsy (full decompression and then recompression). Avid have a cross-platform (and expensive) app that can handle raw DV.

The cheapest and quickest solution is Apple's Boot Camp that lets you put XP on the Mac. Unlike Parallels, Boot Camp lets you run Windows exactly as on a PC rather than virtually, hence the FireWire will work.

Thanks, but I'm really trying to find a way to not go through the time consuming process of converting/re-encoding -- Kind of the way DVD authoring software can recognize a mpeg-2 stream and not re-encode it.

He's already purchased the virtualization app Parallels, so going in another direction with dual boot software doesn't really make sense for him.

There must be(hopefully) an app or utility to change the wrapper/container or simply rewrite the video file without re-encoding from scratch.

I'd think this must be a fairly common problem, seeing so many are using virtualization software on Macs and none of them can capture via a Firewire port.

Hopefully, we'll keep digging and find something.

[maveni]

I'd really like to test out MPEG Streamclip. I'm told it'll change over the wrapper without re-encoding the video file. I'd really like to test it, but don't have a Mac QT DV file to test. Could anyone point me to a test file? It's really appreciated.

[NOKYARD]

i was able to confirm this

using a video game stream captured with a Formac Studio CC, through Firewire, using QT Pro to capture and produce the DV file

i opened the DV file by dragging it into the MPEG Streamclip window, but instead of using 'File/Export to AVI...', which would have re-compressed the file, i used 'File/Save As...' which gave me the option of saving the file in either a MOV, AVI, MP4 or DV wrapper - the 50MB file took less than 5 seconds to complete so you know there was no re-compressing going on

Note: selecting a MP4 wrapper, of course, resulted in an error but curiously it did allow me to convert the DV file to a DV file

[maveni]

Awesome. Thanks so much. I still ahven't been able to get a test Mac DV file.

I assume you're able to open it with an app like Windows Movie Maker. correct? Guess it's really just a double check.

Thanks again.

[NOKYARD]

try this file for a test (Right Click, Save As...)

(originally captured from a very old VHS tape so the video quality is quite poor - the trick itself is quite awesome)

[maveni]

thanks again. Is there anyway you can also post the original Mac DV file? Then I can test it myself. I really appreicate this.

This process should really help Mac folks who run virtualization software becuase currently they don't recognize the Firewire port.

[lordsmurf]

VMWare Fusion does not recognize it?

[NOKYARD]

.DV file (Right Click, Save As...)

[maveni]

Thanks again for your help. This really is a very useful process.

It's really appreciated.

[minidv2dvd]

qt on winXP plays the raw dv fine. vegas opens it and can use it. converted to ntsc DVavi type II no problem.



raw-dv-in-vegas.jpg

[maveni]

MPEG Streamclip is a free open source app that'll change the Mac wrapper to a Windows Avi container within a couple of seconds -- no re-encoding/compressing needed.

This is very useful for Mac users who run Windows virtualization software and need to capture from a camcorder under Windows. VMWare, Parallels, etc., do not support Firewire.

[pearlygates]

He's already purchased the virtualization app Parallels, so going in another direction with dual boot software doesn't really make sense for him.

just adding some advice from my experience, for people who might be searching for answers in the future:

if you're using a video editing application, you're going to get much better performance booting windows natively with bootcamp, than by using parallels or fusion. you won't have wasted money buying parallels, because it can be quite useful for various other things. i'm not saying it's not possible to use parallels, and if it works ok for you then great. but i would strongly recommend to anyone doing video editing or any other intense processing to at least try out using bootcamp and compare the difference. it won't cost you anything (bootcamp comes free on your leopard disc), and in my experience the performance gain is like night and day...