Dynamic Resolution PC Monitors vs TV Monitors Static Resolution.

[therock003]

Does the statement that PC monitor have variable resolution versus TV's fixed resolution hold true?

I mean all a PC does is interpolate pixel values when selecting different resolutions, it's not like it has a second panel with different aspect ratio or something?

So what is really the difference regarding the resolution of a PC monitor screen versus the screen of a Television Set?

[jagabo]

Fixed pixel display HDTV's (LDC, plasma, etc) typically have less flexibility in handling incoming sources than fixed pixel display computer monitors. This is because they are TVs and there are fewer source resolutions and refresh rates in the TV world. They all have their native resolution -- the actual pixels that make up the display. And this varies from device to device.

CRT type HDTVs and computer monitors vary the scan rate of the electron beam so you don't get digital scaling artifacts like you on on fixed pixel displays.

[edDV]

For LCD computer monitors it is better to avoid monitor scaling and feed it native resolution (e.g. 1280x1024 or 1680x1050). Then let the display card handle input to display scaling. This avoids double scaling (display card and monitor) which generates artifacts and softens detail.

LCD TV sets do the job of display card and monitor. They accept various various fixed resolutions and frame rates (printed in the manual) and none other. The internal scaler/deinterlacer converts the various inputs to an overscaled size which is 3-5% larger than the display native resolution. This is called overscan. Some LCD-TV sets have a mode to reduce overscan to unity. Most LCD-TV sets have a VGA (TV/Game) port that accepts a list of typical computer VESA resolutions and scales those to display without overscan. Usually one of the resolutions will match the LCD native display resolution for 1:1 scaling. That would be the ideal PC output resolution.

Computer monitors usually have square pixels but not all have 16:9 aspect ratio. Many are 16:10 so will display 16:9 with letterbox. Most LCD-TV sets will have a native 16:9 aspect display. Display pixels can be square (e.g. 1280x720, 1366x768, 1920x1080) or non-square (e.g. 1024x768, 1280x768, 1440x1080).

[therock003]

Do LCD-PC Monitors have internal scalers as well, much like LCD-TV? Cause i thought that all scaling to the native resolution was done solely by the graphics card.

So you mean that if you set a desktop resolution different than the Monitors native, and feed the card a signal then two types of scaling will happen.

Of course you can feed the signal directly to the monitor if the cable is VGA/DVI which most PC monitors support and all the job will happen there without the gfx interefering.

Now specifically i intend on buing an LCD-TV and it worries me when FullHD is anounced on the features but no word as to if it handles progressive or not.

What do you gather on this part of the description for the a Toshiba Monitor i'm interested in.

The model can accept 1080p signal, but has internal support for a maximum of 1080i.

So if i feed it 1080p will it be scaled to 1080i?

P.S.BTW What's the significance of widescreen AR on non-squared Monitors? I was under the impression that only DV cams used this type of screen and just to save spce.

[jagabo]

Do LCD-PC Monitors have internal scalers as well, much like LCD-TV?

Yes.

So you mean that if you set a desktop resolution different than the Monitors native, and feed the card a signal then two types of scaling will happen.

The Desktop is just drawn by the graphics card at whatever resolution the graphics card is set at. But yes, video files that don't match the graphics card's resolution will first be scaled by the graphics card then by the monitor.

Of course you can feed the signal directly to the monitor if the cable is VGA/DVI which most PC monitors support and all the job will happen there without the gfx interefering.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. If the graphics card is set to the monitor's native resolution the monitor will not scale it. If the graphics card is set to a different resolution the monitor will scale it.

Now specifically i intend on buing an LCD-TV and it worries me when FullHD is anounced on the features but no word as to if it handles progressive or not.

What do you gather on this part of the description for the a Toshiba Monitor i'm interested in.

The model can accept 1080p signal, but has internal support for a maximum of 1080i.

So if i feed it 1080p will it be scaled to 1080i?

LCD displays are always progressive. I suspect that quote means it accepts 1080p input but continues to treat it as if it was 1080i -- deinterlacing (unnecessarily), maybe discarding half the frames, and scaling it to the native resolution. I would be careful about that purchase.

I have a Samsung LNT-4665 and it accepts 1080p60 input. I have it connected to a computer that is set for 1080p60 RGB output. I get a perfect pixel-for-pixel display, just like a big computer monitor.

P.S.BTW What's the significance of widescreen AR on non-squared Monitors? I was under the impression that only DV cams used this type of screen and just to save spce.

Many HDTVs use LCD or plasma panels that don't match the standard video resolutions. So you may find a "720p" LCD that has a 1366x768 LCD panel, or a "720p" plasma that has a 1024x768 panel. These will have to scale to the panels native resolution whether fed a 1280x720p60, 1920x1080i30, or 1920x1080p60 signal. They often accept the native resolution over the VGA input if they have one.

When using an HDTV as a computer monitor there is a further issue you have to be careful of: overscan. Most HDTVs will cut off a few percent of the frame on all four sides. For example a 1366x768 LCD will scale a 1280x720 input to about 1444x800 and display only the inner 1366x768 portion of the frame. You won't be able to see the Start bar, the title bar of a maximized window, etc. Most HDTVs with VGA inputs don't overscan that input. Many of the better HDTVs now have a non-overscan option on the DVI/HDMI inputs.

[therock003]

LCD displays are always progressive. I suspect that quote means it accepts 1080p input but continues to treat it as if it was 1080i -- deinterlacing (unnecessarily), maybe discarding half the frames, and scaling it to the native resolution. I would be careful about that purchase.

I have a Samsung LNT-4665 and it accepts 1080p60 input. I have it connected to a computer that is set for 1080p60 RGB output. I get a perfect pixel-for-pixel display, just like a big computer monitor.

Well no doubt your model should be better, but i'm on a strict budget and this monitor somehow costs 1100Euro while being 47" and that's what makes me consider it on the first place, but iam cautious as to what it can bring to the table. Do you thing that the 1080i could screw me over?

When using an HDTV as a computer monitor there is a further issue you have to be careful of: overscan. Most HDTVs will cut off a few percent of the frame on all four sides. For example a 1366x768 LCD will scale a 1280x720 input to about 1444x800 and display only the inner 1366x768 portion of the frame. You won't be able to see the Start bar, the title bar of a maximized window, etc. Most HDTVs with VGA inputs don't overscan that input. Many of the better HDTVs now have a non-overscan option on the DVI/HDMI inputs.

Interesting i wasn't aware of that. How can i know beforehand of the behavior of a certain Monitor concernign the overscan. I most certainly aim for 1920x1080 Monitor but wil it scale for FullHD each time, or wil it vary a little more/little less for each signal.

[jagabo]

i'm on a strict budget and this monitor somehow costs 1100Euro while being 47" and that's what makes me consider it on the first place, but iam cautious as to what it can bring to the table. Do you thing that the 1080i could screw me over?

If you want perfect pixel-for-pixel clarity for use as a computer monitor -- yes, you could be screwed.

How can i know beforehand of the behavior of a certain Monitor concernign the overscan.

Look for 'pixel-for-pixel", "just scan", in the specs. Find reviews that talk about it or somebody that knows that particular model.

I most certainly aim for 1920x1080 Monitor but wil it scale for FullHD each time, or wil it vary a little more/little less for each signal.

It will scale everything to its native resolution. If there is no non-overscan mode everything will be scaled a little larger than the native resolution and the edges will be cut off.

[edDV]

Download the manual and read about resolutions and settings for each input port. Link the manual here and I'll take a look at it.

As jagabo said, all LCD and plasma displays are progressive but not all accept 1080p at the input and many of those that do limit frame rate to 23.976 or 24 for HDMI v1.3 BluRay movies. "1080i" may mean it only supports 1920x1080 at 25 or 29.97fps and assumes the input is interlace or telecined. That signal will then be deinterlaced for display. If you feed 1080i from your display card, expect flicker in wide white areas of application windows. Some display cards have flicker filters but those temporally filter causing smeared motion for video.

So, understand what you want and make sure the TV can deliver. Read the manual. What you want is 1920x1080p HDMI input at 50fps or better and pixel-for-pixel mapping. If the TV doesn't have that it will be useless for what you want to do. It may still be possible to input 1920x1080 over VGA. VGA is always progressive and assumes a 50fps refresh. That is why its called the PC port. Some cheaper HDTV sets limit VGA to 1366x768.

[jagabo]

In my experience, if you switch a graphics card to 1080i output it will also output YCbCr instead of RGB. The result is less sharp colors -- especially small colored text.

[therock003]

It seems that Toshiba arent really good monitors. Why else could this one be so cheap while being 47".

Anyway another thing i question myself is, what's with 1366x768? I mean high def, is either 1080p or 720p, so the monitors must be 1080p and 720p as well. What's the reason for a Monitor being 1366x768 when it should be 1280x720? That's just wasted upscaling.

I now consider getting a 50 Plasma Screen for the same amount of money. Better than the Toshiba Specs, except of course being 1366x768 as most plasma use this except the newest and extremely expensive models.

My use will be to hook it up to my computer, and view standard def and 720p videos as well as displaying digital drawings.

Will this res suit me?

[edDV]

It seems that Toshiba arent really good monitors. Why else could this one be so cheap while being 47".

You still haven't told us the model number of this TV. There is more to an HDTV spec than screen size that will affect price.

1. Display technology (e.g. plasma vs. LCD/fluorescent backlight vs LCD/LED backlight, etc.)
2. Screen native resolution (e.g. 1024x768, 1280x720, 1280x768, 1366x768, 1440x1080, 1920x1080)
3. Image processor-scaler quality. Most manufacturers have three to four quality levels.
4. Screen refresh technology (e.g. 50fps, 72fps, 100fps)
5. Connectivity features such as #HDMI inputs, network connectivity, DLNA wireless support, raw file decode formats

This is why a single manufacturer may offer several models at each screen size.

Anyway another thing i question myself is, what's with 1366x768? I mean high def, is either 1080p or 720p, so the monitors must be 1080p and 720p as well. What's the reason for a Monitor being 1366x768 when it should be 1280x720? That's just wasted upscaling.

As I explained above, native screen resolution and video input resolution are two different things. Input video is always upscaled or downscaled for display except when set to unity overscan (aka pixel for pixel or "just scan") at native screen resolution.

I now consider getting a 50 Plasma Screen for the same amount of money. Better than the Toshiba Specs, except of course being 1366x768 as most plasma use this except the newest and extremely expensive models.

Recent plasmas have 1024x768, 1366x768 or 1920x1080 native screen resolutions.

My use will be to hook it up to my computer, and view standard def and 720p videos as well as displaying digital drawings.

Will this res suit me?

If the HDTV has 1366x768 native screen resolution make sure it supports both VGA and HDMI input at 1366x768 without overscan. That will give the clearest picture when connected to a PC. You may find that only the VGA connection offers this feature. Also, make sure your computer display card supports 1366x768 output for both VGA and DVI-D outputs.

In this mode, the display card in the computer provides input video scaling and image processing. The HDTV is acting as a computer monitor.

[therock003]

As I explained above, native screen resolution and video input resolution are two different things. Input video is always upscaled or downscaled for display except when set to unity overscan (aka pixel for pixel or "just scan") at native screen resolution.

Yes of course, I understand that, and that is what I'm saying. Since files are 1280x720 (720p) why don't they make Monitors with 720p native resolution? Making the native resolution 1366x768 is useless cause you never get to feed 1366x768. Video files are either standard def (at various resolutions) or it is 1080p/720p, so why not make 720p Monitors instead of this 1366x768? That is what I'm asking here.

You still haven't told us the model number of this TV. There is more to an HDTV spec than screen size that will affect price.

Oops yes i forgot.

The first model i was talking about is this (Toshiba).

http://www.e-shop.gr/show_per.phtml?id=PER.162217

Although i regret this choice as i read on certain reviews that Toshiba doesnt offer sharp pictures, and balck quality is more of a washed-out dark grey.

Although it does have an internal Faroudga scaler, and pixel processing 3 technology.

And then there's this Plasma screen, that generally seems better, except that instead of FullHD it has 1366x768 res.

http://www.plaisio.gr/product.aspx?product=1230026&OTHONILCDTVDIAGONIOS=50+inches&OTHO...380AB3DF0119E0

[edDV]

HD television was first developed in the 80's with analog CRT screen technology. There was much fundamental psychological research done on screen resolution and aspect ratio requirements for a home theater environment. The result was an idealized 16:9 aspect ratio and a screen size goal based on room size and seating distance.

Resolution requirements evolved from the vertical direction. Taking into account the requirements of interlace and progressive transmission, it was determined that ~1100 scan lines was optimal for movies and general programming. Ideal sports or other high action programming favored high frame rate progressive scan and relied less on screen detail. Therefore, a dual system was proposed for high resolution, lower frame rate (1080i) and high progressive frame rate with less resolution. 1080 lines was eventually chosen to match requirements of digital addressing. 1920 horizontal pixels resulted from an assumption of square pixels and 16:9 aspect ratio.

It turned out that 1920x1080 could be accommodated as a computer display (VESA standard) as well. The DVI-D standard was developed with cropped 1920x1080 as the maximum goal for single link.

Progressive 1280x720p was chosen more for camera sensor and transmission bandwidth considerations rather than optimal flat panel screen addressing. Remember that all this was developed for analog CRT first. So to avoid a long story, flat panel digital displays optimized for different resolutions than 1280x720. Common flat panel (plasma/LCD) display resolutions are 1024x768, 1280x768, 1366x768, 1280x1024, 1680x1050, 1920x1080. Only 1366x768 and 1920x1080 have square pixels at 16:9 aspect ratio. So the application of HDTV to flat panel displays requires a digital processor to upscale/downscale the various HD and SD video resolutions to native flat panel display resolution.

The same is true when video is viewed on a square pixel computer display. Whenever you choose "full screen", the video is being scaled to current display resolution.

[edDV]

Your first TV was a 1920x1080 resolution LCD but had poor 800:1 contrast. This contrast spec is more appropriate to computer office application use rather than home theater video. Home theater operates with low room ambient light and demands wide contrast and deep black performance.

Your second choice was a 1366x768 plasma. This TV has a listed 1 million to one contrast spec but less resolution. This particular TV is more appropriate for home theater use, but will have less detail resolution when sitting close.

It should be noted that 1920x1080 plasma TV sets are both more expensive to buy and have a recurring high power consumption penalty. The most power efficient HDTV sets are the new LED backlight LCD models.

[therock003]

Your first TV was a 1920x1080 resolution LCD but had poor 800:1 contrast. This contrast spec is more appropriate to computer office application use rather than home theater video. Home theater operates with low room ambient light and demands wide contrast and deep black performance.

By office application, do you mean that it could be used as a secondary monitor to my computer? Would it be a good choice for browsing the internet and for drawing (CAD) applications?

Your second choice was a 1366x768 plasma. This TV has a listed 1 million to one contrast spec but less resolution. This particular TV is more appropriate for home theater use, but will have less detail resolution when sitting close.

Yes indeed it will be better for media playback, but 1366x768 for a 50 inch Monitor are not suffiecient i think.

It should be noted that 1920x1080 plasma TV sets are both more expensive to buy and have a recurring high power consumption penalty. The most power efficient HDTV sets are the new LED backlight LCD models.

Can you bring some example, from specific models? Do you have anything in mind?

Now as for Monitors for PC applications i guess 30inch 2560x1600 would be a lot better. But they're expensive.

Take a look at these 3 models. http://www.e-shop.gr/search_per.phtml?category=%CF%C8%CF%CD%C7&category2=TFT%2030

The last one is a LED Backlit LCD but it costs 4k Euros, ouch!

[jagabo]

The top end is always disproportionately expensive.

[edDV]

For office apps and CAD, a computer monitor is more appropriate. Normally you sit close for these applications so large monitor size (over 24") is less important. For CAD resolutions over 1920x1080 are often used.

The major choice is between a computer monitor or an HDTV. The HDTV has many more features for TV use (e.g. image deinterlacer-scaler, tuner, video input processors). When you set an HDTV to pixel for pixel HDMI or VGA at native display resolution, all the TV features are unused. Better to just buy a computer monitor and save the expense.

LED backlight technology for LCD displays is new. Samsung has a new line of LED backlight models at the top of their HDTV range. The advantages for TV use are better contrast and lower power consumption.

LED backlights are also being applied to notebook LCD displays mainly for power efficiency vs. fluorescents.

[therock003]

I agree, so i guess i will be aiming for 2560x1600 after all... (I need it more for CAD purposes)

Any recommendations? I've been told to look for either Eizo or Dell, but their 30" 2560x1600 models go up to 3000 Euro which is not what i have in mind.

Is there any sich Monitor at a satisfactory value up to 1500 Euros?

[jagabo]

I don't know about Euros but 2560x1600 30" monitors go for about $1200 in the USA.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010190020+1309825151&Conf...e=&srchInDesc=

[edDV]

Why do you need a monitor that large for CAD?

[therock003]

Because opening toolbars takes up half of the screen sometimes. A 30 inch screen could make up for 20-22 inch of Drawing Space and the rest will be the toolbars and other panels.

Anyway it seems tha this Monitors aer crazy expensive here in Greece.

For example i've been recommended to go either for Eizo or Dell for professional use, which both go up to 3000 euro. But i found the Dell Ultrasharp 3008WFP 30"for 1091 pounds in England while here it's 2750 Euro. The difference is Huge, and the problem is that it is difficult to find stores that ship such Huge objects.

[edDV]

$1400-1600 here.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001JI92KQ/?tag=superskupi-20
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001JI92KQ/?tag=superskupi-20

[jagabo]

Using two smaller monitors will be far cheaper.

[therock003]

Yes that's a great idea. Maybe getting 2 24inch 1920x1200 Monitors will do the trick. What do you think?

[therock003]

Yep i gues 2x 26inch will do the trick. Which one would you suggest from here?

http://www.e-shop.gr/search_per.phtml?category=%CF%C8%CF%CD%C7&category2=TFT%2026

I'm between the 400Euro LG and Samsung.

For the use i want it, do i need to be concerned for contrast/brighness and response time?