Would Like Advice on a Capture Card

[DW]

Hi,
i'm looking for a capture card, one that fully works with Windows 2000 Pro and XP Pro, and I would like it to:

-do full frame, full motion
-do uncompressed (preferably)
-anologue and digital (DV)
-be realtime (not everything, like ALL 2d and 3d effects, has to be realtime, though)
-have realtime capture and output
-composite and preferably component as well (though component not nessasary)
-preferably upgradable to SDI (though not nessasary)
-preferably need a single PCI slot
-preferably have MPEG-1/MPEG-2 encoding
-dual standard (NTSC and PAL)
-S-Video and IEEE 1394 (of course)

I will be working mostly with Avid Xpress DV, but i should also be able to work with Premiere, EditDV, and Speed Razor. I'm trying to stay away from Pinnacle stuff mainly becuase i don't like them (their support and drivers, etc.).

So, what would be the most inexpensive (yet not "cheap") solution out there?

Thanks in advance! :)

[sommersby]

I have the ATI AIW radeon card and outside of firewire it does everything else, if you find a card that does all you ask, let me know...lol btw, I am running XP pro with no problems with this card...Gary

[DW]

um, no disrespect intended, but I'm looking for a dedicated capture card, not a video card that is able to capture some video. The ATI, (though Im not sure exactly which one you are talking about) i'm pretty sure, can't do full frame/full speed in ntsc and pal, isn't realtime in any way, can't do both digital and anogolue, doesn't have component, can't do uncompressed, has no SDI option, isn't available in pci, and no native mpeg encoding to name a few.

Do you know of any others (more high-end) out there? :) Thanks!

[WizyWyg]

Then I suggest that you look into a card that's priced in the $1500-$2000 range, as they will do all you ask

Here are some links to check out:
http://www.videoguys.com/vidcap.htm
(comparisson chart)

Though I suggest:
http://www.videoguys.com/miro.htm



Dont look at any card below $1000. You are not going to get what you want out of them.

[Hiei]

Pinnacle Systems DV500 Plus www.mwave.com $470.82

[DW]

hi Hiei, thanks for the response. But like i mentioned, i'm trying to stay away from Pinnacle stuff. Also, about the DV500:

-only realtime color-correction is for saturation/contrast/brightness
-its kinda old (pinnacle's pushing the Pro-One, which means we probably wont see support/new drivers for it, knowing Pinnacle)
-no component
-only two layers of realtime video(?)
-no uncompressed
-dual stream is only for DV(?)
-no 4:2:2 (?)
-no realtime 3d effects (though i've read things to the contrary as well)
-no realtime effects at all if you're laying to DV tape
-no realtime text animation (crawls, scrolls, etc.)
-no DVE capabilities
-no luma- or chroma-keying

WizyWyg-
i looked over at Videoguys... is there any that you'd recommed that does as many (or most) of the things i listed at first?

Other ideas, anyone?

Thank you!

[WizyWyg]

Well I dont know what system you're going to work on, but I personally use the Miro cards and have never had problems with them

however, you might as well just invest in a all inone unit; though it'll cost you $30,000 to get one. Its a capture, render, output 'box' , and can do everything you want.

Again, dont look at anything under $1000; the DC500 isn't "good enough" to do what you want and again its priced under $1000

I've used the DC1000 and the DC2000 DV cards and have no complaints on them.

Im not an "expert" but for the company I work for, I just "called" around to our local video production companies and asked what kind of systems they use. You can get an idea from their setups to find out what works out for you.

Most will say they use the AVID system ($300,000) so you can see what kind of "specs" you're looking at.

[videoguys]

The DV500 Plus is an older card, but that also means it is a proven performer with more stable drivers. Pinnacle just released the 3.0 drivers for DV500 Pl;us which add some new features. For the money it's a really great card.

For a comparison of all the latest real-time cards, check out http://www.videoguys.com/RT3.html

Gary

[DW]

The DV500 Plus is an older card, but that also means it is a proven performer with more stable drivers.
Gary

I'm sorry, but i must disagree with this. Just becuase a card, or any product, is older, does not mean it's a "proven performer." What makes something a proven performer is doing just that -- performing up to par, whether when it was first released, five years down the line (unlikey, as technology goes) or whenever.
Also, while driver revisions often fix bugs, it does not mean that they will always be more stable. Take nVidia's Detonator drivers for Geforce-based graphics cards, for instance. There have been several new releases that have not worked (well) with Athlon-based systems. If you want an example directly from Pinnacle, take a look at the Targa 1000/2000 line... they are not supported at all any more. They don't even work (really) with Windows 2000.

In the DV500's case, aside from all the issues I mentioned above, I have also heard many reports about its difficulties with installation (IRQ conflicts and the like). While I'm sure you had none of these, it seems to be a more-than-seldom problem if you take a look around the boards.

Also, in that article you directed me to, while quite informative (though I'd like to see more head-to-head competition, instead of just a short blurb outlining some of the specs in a advertisement-like presentation which I can pick up from any of the products' web pages) I must draw your attention to something misleading. You write (and I assume this is your website based on your name you use here) that the DV500 has real-time color correction. Pinnacle never uses this term, and always refers to what they have on the DV500 "image correction" because, once again, only saturation, contrast, and brightness are done in real time. This is far from complete color correction.

And again, there's all the stuff i mentioned in my previous post that it doesn't have.

Right now, I like the sound of the DVStorm, but its a bit pricey for what it offers... (kinda similar to the Pro-One [better keyframing] and the RT2500 [edit in a lot more formats like DVCAM, DVCPRO, 4:2:2) it seems like if you're going to spend $1200 on the DVStorm, might as well go for a little bit more and get component with the DC2000-DV... but i've heard that it's MPEG2 compression isn't up to par; anyone know?
Oh, and for anyone who actually read my initial post, do you know of any good uncompressed cards?

Thanks in advance!

(oh yes, and I'm not looking for big packages with tons of software... I have the software. One of the biggest scams Creative Labs did was sell their hardware with tons and tons of software so they could up the prices on their products)

(oh yes, :) and can someone tell me the difference between the DVStorm SE and DVStorm SE Plus?)

[WizyWyg]

The only system I trust that can do uncompressed video is a sytem well into the $250,000 range.

[You_Are_Alive]

You know your asking for alot, like a piece of the moon or something like that. jk Its gonna be hard to find something like that. And oh, alot less than an Avid, which is just a joke to me now after I have been using this NLE for over 2 years now. Also, its getting upgraded too, to even a more powerful system then it is now. So I'm thinking I should get a finder's fee for this wisdom that I am about to dispense. I won't hold my breath though But you understand that this is alot more than just a capture card, so I don't understand why you said: So, what would be the most inexpensive (yet not "cheap") solution out there? So before I spill the beans, how much do you consider (yet not "cheap")? Like a price range, $1000 - $2000 or about $5000 - $10,000. Like I said, you are asking for alot for so little.

[thxkid]

These answers are crap...... here I have been using a happuage PVR MPEG1/MPEG2 and uncompressed AVI card now for 1 year.
I just captured a Non-compliant SVCD at 704x480 at 6000 bitrate and it looked fantastic on my daewoo 5700 DVD player, at that resolution though exspect only 14min. on a 700MB CD-R and most DVD, if any will play that high of resolution anyway, the card will capture from 1150 all the way to 12000 from 240x112 all the way to 720x576, I got their Setting hack from the Happuage German web site so I have complete control over all video and audio settings, but beware this cards MPEG1 is horrible, but the MPEG2 from 2520 on up looks great and at 6000 just like the original source. I am using win98 and a athlon 1600+ with 512 megs of ram. I also use Virtualdub for the AVI Capturing.
Oh another big plus it bypasses macrovison so any source will work with it, no matter what anti-copy guard protection it has.
The Card

1 PCI slot
S-Video
video and audio composite
TV tuner in
Price $199 New at Fry's Electronics
Will support win98, SE, ME, NT, WIN2000, XP

[videoguys]

There are lots of levels of cards out there. The DV Strom is definitely one of the best. It has real-time DV out and the most advanced color processing of our real-time cards. We've got a real-time comparison article on our website, with a very comprehensive comparison chart

http://www.videoguys.com/RT3.html

For uncompressed some folks do get by with a simple TV tuner card and avi files. I think these guys do very minimal editing and projects under an hour. For professional uncompressed video editing and production, we recommend the DPS VElocity or Newtek Toaster.

Gary
Videoguys.com

[You_Are_Alive]

Yup, there it is. You spilled the beans. D......P......S......Velocity !!! Not for the faint of heart or those that don't want to spend the money for the absolute best quality. I suggest you forget about some of your requirements: component, sdi, dual standard, and uncompressed if you want to spend as little as possible.

Good luck!

[Faceman101]

http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/default.asp?EDC=272348

I have the DVC II and a firewire capturing device. I plan on selling the DVC II (was good when I didn't know any better) and getting the Winnov Videum 1000. I haven't heard many people talk of this card and only one person reviewed it on the capture card forums. He more of less just told the specs and gave it a 9 or something. Supposely it doesn't have a problem with audio sync and can do 640x480 30fps uncompressed, retails for 230 or so too. Sounds like a great card for me. Between that and a firewire card (which you can get from anywhere between 20-100 dollars, decent card I'm talking with no hot software) you'd be set.

Anyone like to comment on that? I'd like to know also if that is a good choice and would work for DW.

[DW]

Thanks everyone for the responses....

WizyWyg-
I'm not looking for a complete system here, just the card. DPS makes a whole line of cards and they are priced well below $10,000.

You_Are_Alive-
whoah, a piece of the moon? heh, maybe if i were asking for a Quantel Infinity or a 5D Colossus, then maybe. Just simple editing stuff here. Yeah, i've been looking at DPS' stuff for a while... really featured products, plus they're known for having rock-solid support and quality. Really top of the line stuff (and my dream). I guess I'm looking for something as close to the V3D-5520DX as possible (but i dont want to spend 6K).

But my apologies, I should have been more explicit on how much i was planning on spending. For a lower-end card, I'd like to stay under the $1500 mark. Of course, if there's a card that offers a lot more, like uncompressed and component, i'd go up accordingly.

thxkid-
um, thanks for the suggestion, but i think i'm looking for a different breed of card (ie, not a tuner card). Take a look at my initial post for more information.

videoguys-
um.... thanks, Gary, for pointing out that same link again.
(:rolleyes:)

Faceman101-
Yeah, i was looking at some of Winnov's stuff... seems like they can do some uncompressed, but it only says "performance" is uncompressed. Dunno what that means, exactly. Oh, well... doesn't matter: no realtime, no component, no DV(?), no 1394, etc. besides, i havn't seen any reviews or anything about Winnov (i like reliable companies with a solid background:).


Any other DPS-like solutions out there that aren't quite so expensive?
Otherwise, has anyone used both the DVStorm and the RT2500 and could tell me which they like better and why?

(and still no one knows the difference between the DVStorm SE and DVStorm SE Plus?)
(maybe i should just save my money and get an DVRex RT Pro later......)

[WizyWyg]

Thanks everyone for the responses....

WizyWyg-
I'm not looking for a complete system here, just the card. DPS makes a whole line of cards and they are priced well below $10,000.

Like i stated, if you want to do everything that you want, then you're going to have to look into a more dedicated unit.

You're not going to find a card uner $1500 that will do everything that you want. So you're going to have to do the comparisson and read the reports (Video Maker Magazine has extensive reviews of video products as well as video cap cards) and sacrifice some features in favor of others.

As they say, we can't have everything that we want.

A dedicated system will be the only way you'll get everything you want, but then again, you dont want to spend over $1500 as you stated below.

Any other DPS-like solutions out there that aren't quite so expensive?
Otherwise, has anyone used both the DVStorm and the RT2500 and could tell me which they like better and why?

(and still no one knows the difference between the DVStorm SE and DVStorm SE Plus?)
(maybe i should just save my money and get an DVRex RT Pro later......)

Every tried visitng the products' info pages at their companies websites?

http://www.videoguys.com/DVstorm.html
http://www.videoguys.com/canopus.htm

http://www.canopuscorp.com/products/dvstormseplus.php3
http://www.canopuscorp.com/products/dvstormse.php3


Since most these cards are well over the budgets of those who usually visit this board, I dont think you'll get many opinions on these. Most of us who do what we do, have a simple set up with cards that cost less than $500.

Your best bet is to look at trade magazines or their online counterparts:
http://www.videomaker.com/scripts/index.cfm
http://www.videomakerexpo.com/expoeast/expo.cfm

http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=video+maker

[videoguys]

Sorry for the redundant link. I'll make sure I re-read the entire thread int he future.

There are some very good low cost solutions around. The new Pinnacle Stduio Deluxe gives you analog & DV with NLE and authoring software. You've also got the ADS USB Instant DVD and our Media Studio Pro 6.5 bundles. here is a link to our getting started page

http://www.videoguys.com/started.html

If you still want more info comparing the real-time cards, give us a call. 800 323-2325 Our sales guys will go over the computer you have and the features you want, then make some suggestions and recommendations.


Gary
Videoguys.com

[stag]

HMMMMmmmm

what about the hollywood dv bridge...
does most of what you ask have been using it no probs

Can be had for a bargain price if you look around

Ok tongue in cheek.... but seriously is it really worth spending all that amount of money

Am off to spend my hard earned cash on a car

:P

[bertmartin]

videoguys: Why are you pushing Pinnacle? Have you read about all the problems these cards/systems give users? Take a look at the Pinnacle forum!! Have you ever used Pinnacle products or do you just sell them? People come to this forum to get help, not a sales pitch.

[videoguys]

The Birdige is an excellent choice for simply getting analog footage intoa firewire equipped machine. But it doesn't bring anyhting to the table as far as editing and authoring software.

As for Pinnacle products, we've been with them for a very long time. While they get blasted for tech support problems, theses are only a small percentage. We offer free tech support and a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If the stuff wasn't working, we wouldn't keep selling it. I think one of the key reasons we have such great success with Pinnacle and all our products is our tech support extertise. Not only do we offer free phone support to our customers, we've got a GREAT on line tech support area on our website.

http://www.videoguys.com/techsupp.htm

Gary
Videoguys.com

[valzuniga]

this makes me sick!

[valzuniga]

get rid of these stupid infomercial posts!!!!!!!!!

[videoguys]

sorry if it offended you. I thought that the folks here would find all the tech support on our website very useful.

I'll tone down my posts in the future.

Gary
Videoguys.com

[stag]

The Birdige is an excellent choice for simply getting analog footage intoa firewire equipped machine. But it doesn't bring anyhting to the table as far as editing and authoring software.

As for Pinnacle products, we've been with them for a very long time. While they get blasted for tech support problems, theses are only a small percentage. We offer free tech support and a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If the stuff wasn't working, we wouldn't keep selling it. I think one of the key reasons we have such great success with Pinnacle and all our products is our tech support extertise. Not only do we offer free phone support to our customers, we've got a GREAT on line tech support area on our website.

http://www.videoguys.com/techsupp.htm

Gary
Videoguys.com

I do have to take issue with the above comments...what support.
have used your products didnt get mush support...

Well you miss the point as per usual with the bridge you arent tied to any software why would you want software with the best software only coming from other oulets ie:-vurtual dub and tmpge etc..
would'nt have any use for anything from pinacle..i learned this the hard way

wish you guys would keep you biased reprts to yourselves

[LavaJockey]

Don't jump all over TheVideoGuy. It's true, he has a financial motive in answering questions. But that's a known bias and it's easy to filter that out of his answers. His experience in these matters is, on the other hand, unquestionable.

I much prefer his replies to the "I was an art major in college" idiot who tries a single capture card, on a single system, captures 2 or 3 talking head TV shows with almost no motion, and then, since he's an expert, enters every discussion about everything telling everyone the right way to do things. Those jerks do a lot more damage.

[DW]

My my, I'm sorry this thread has taken the turn that it has.....

All i did was come to get people's opinions on cards, and it seems I got more than what I bargained for.

Thanks, WizyWyg, for pointing me out to those Canopus links (now i look like an idiot)
The videoguys links were less helpful.

Since most these cards are well over the budgets of those who usually visit this board, I dont think you'll get many opinions on these. Most of us who do what we do, have a simple set up with cards that cost less than $500. -WizyWyg

Sorry, i didn't realize the user base of this board. I realize now that people here are using more consumer, hobbiest cards. But i am still open to any suggestions people may have (though i'd like poeple to please take into consideration the type of thing i'm asking for, and dont just suggest what you use cuz you use it).

videoguys (or Gary):
i'm sorry, but I think the ideas/products you are pointing out are not really what i'm looking for.
Plus, i must share the sentiments of many of the others that have posted in this thread. It seems like you are less interested in explaining the technics of different solutions and providing help, and only looking to sell your products and your web site, which, on a side note I must say, is not overly informative (for really good sites, people, go to www.dvformat.com or www.digitalvideoediting.com) Whatever, there are plenty of non-informative sites on the web; it does not mean that you shouldn't have yours.
As for your pushing Pinnacle (here you go, bertmartin) it is simply becuase you carry many of their products. Whether you have had success with them or not, if you take a look around and speak to those who are really experienced, you know that Pinnacle products are notorious to set up, and can often be the most finnicky of hardware (right up there with Avid stuff). If you deny this, then you are just denying the facts that many, many people have reported.
As for you tech support, I have never used it, so I'm not one to comment. However, someone in this very thread has (stag) and his reports were not good. No offense, but the the "experience" that LavaJockey says you have still remains questionable to me (you have provided little original insight, and are mostly handing out links to your web page).

People, for good reportive video sites, check out www.dvformat.com or www.digitalvideoediting.com.


Now, I would love for this thread to turn back into something constructive. I know the pros and cons of the boards; has anyone actually used the DVStorm and RT2500 (or any others) who could give me your impressions? Which is smoother? easier to work with? image quality? rendering times with each? that kinda thing....

Much appreciated


[is it just me, or is this forum painfully slow....? i'm on cable...]

[DW]

come on... no one?

:)

[videoguys]

Did you actually go to our website and read any of the articles I recommended? If you did and you still have any questions, feel free to email me or call us and talk to one of our sale guys. Or go to the Canopus and Matrox websites and check out their user forums.

Gary
Videoguys.com

[DW]

oh, goodness...

Yes, i did go to your website and checked out the "articles" there (although I'd more accurately call them "extended advertisements" ...even the "shootout" thing only gave little blurbs -- a short paragraph on each -- about how great and fantastic they all are. For a real shootout go here: http://www.dvformat.com/2001/12_dec/reviews/cw_shootout.htm ).

As for your tech "support," I emailed you (videoguys.com tech support email) and never got a response. So far, I haven't seen too much "support." I don't wish to disclose the email to you becuase I don't feel I should get any special treatment.

The Canopus and Matrox forums, as many manufacturer forums, usually only have people with problems with their products, or general questions. Besides, this is a forum, ain't it? I'd rather get opinions on neutral ground, so to speak.


Anyway, getting back to what I was looking for in my last post...........?
(starting with "Now," see above)

Thanks to anyone!
:)