Question about slight 1 second jerk when camera pans

[jimdagys]

I use DVDFlick to turn avi into DVD and I notice a slight pause about every 1 second that is most noticeable during camera pan or when credits roll. The problem can be seen on several different standalone DVD players that I tried and also when the DVD is played on the computer. My question: is this a problem with DVD Flick, or just the inability of the DVD players and computer to process pan motion video?

[Baldrick]

Sounds like a framerate conversion that doesn't worked that good.

If your source is 24fps then make 24fps NTSC with 3:2 pulldown.
If your source is 25 fps then make 25fps PAL.
If your source is 29.976 fps then make 29.97fps NTSC.

So what is your source fps and what did you make?

[jagabo]

One jerk every second is indicative of a frame rate conversion from 24 fps to 25 fps or vice versa.

[jimdagys]

Well, I don't have any AVI's at this time, but with DVDFlick, to make your DVD, you must choose between Pal, NTSC, NTSC film or Mixed. There isn't any option for "pulldown". For example, I can see if my source is 25fps, then I should choose Pal. But if the source is 23.976fps or 24fps, or 29.976fps, should I choose NTSC or NTSC film or Mixed?

[jagabo]

You may have problems playing PAL DVDs in the USA.

[tomlee59]

Well, I don't have any AVI's at this time, but with DVDFlick, to make your DVD, you must choose between Pal, NTSC, NTSC film or Mixed. There isn't any option for "pulldown". For example, I can see if my source is 25fps, then I should choose Pal. But if the source is 23.976fps or 24fps, or 29.976fps, should I choose NTSC or NTSC film or Mixed?

23.976fps is the pulled-down NTSC film rate. 29.976 is plain old NTSC frame rate. If you have a film source at 24fps, and you intend to play it on NTSC TVs, then select the "NTSC film" option. That said, playing NTSC discs on PAL equipment often results in jerky/juddery artifacts, as there is a need to perform another framerate conversion. The simplest algorithm simply duplicates frames as needed to keep the average rate correct, but that simple (and therefore often used) approach produces a periodic hiccup.

[jimdagys]

I am trying to understand this. Are you saying that if I use DVD Flick to do a frame rate conversion (like from ntsc to pal), DVD Flick itself will not introduce this kind of error (jerky pan motion)? When I play back a disk on my cheap DVD standalone, I have the option of choosing ntsc or pal, likewise the TV has a button to choose ntsc or pal (although I am in pal country). If the jerky motion is not caused by DVD Flick, is the jerky motion caused when the DVD player converts, or when the TV converts, or both? It seems that the best way to solve this problem is always have DVD Flick produce pal (assuming DVD Flick doesn't introduce conversion error), then nothing needs to be converted later when watching the movie.

[jagabo]

I don't know what DVD Flick does.

For the smoothest playback on PAL systems you need to convert 23.976 fps to 25 fps by speeding up the video -- just flip through the frames ~4 percent faster. You also need to speed up the audio by the same amount.

[SCDVD]

Mispost - Deleted

[guns1inger]

The current versions of DVD Flick should be using the pulldown method for PAL to NTSC conversion.

[jimdagys]

One minute source material is here (rolling credits):
http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/30/441298/The.City.Of.Lost.Children.1.avi
Source is 23.976fps.
I used DVD Flick (latest version) and converted to DVD and played on my computer.
1) DVD Flick output to Pal and noticed 1 second jerking
2) DVD Flick output to Ntsc and did not notice 1 second jerking.
I am now thinking that DVD Flick is at fault. Should I try something like ConvertXtoDVD? Or should I just leave output as Ntsc and let Standalone and /or TV do the converting? Goal is to eliminate this 1 second jerking when playing on my TV.

[guns1inger]

If you don't want the jerking, go and buy the PAL version instead of converting a downloaded NTSC version.

[johns0]

Load avi in virtualdub,choose video/framerate,change from 23.976 to 25fps,in video select direct stream copy,save avi as,extract audio,open eac3to and load extracted audio and choose pal speedup,mux avi and saved audio.Then convert.

[jimdagys]

Interesting recipe (virtualdub and eac3to). Amongst the rhetoric, I am still trying to find out if these 1 click converters (like DVD Flick) are flawed when doing framerate conversion. It is no big deal, but I would just like to know.

[johns0]

You saw the flaw,changing the framerate with vdub is the sure way to get no jerky file play,just encode pal all the way through.Only thing is if the avi is interlaced then panning scenes will look ugly but most 25fps avi movies are just sped up 24fps avi which are progressive..

[manono]

Amongst the rhetoric, I am still trying to find out if these 1 click converters (like DVD Flick) are flawed when doing framerate conversion. It is no big deal, but I would just like to know.

We won't know unless and until you post a decent sample of the output. I don't use DVD Flick, so I have no idea what it does.

[johns0]

The op said he was converting ntsc to pal and getting jerky video play,no need for a sample as this is clearly an encoder duplicating frames.

[manono]

Me, I like to see a sample. I don't like to guess. You can extrapolate from what he said, if you wish.

It's not necessary to speed the AVI to 25fps, reencode and speed up the audio in order do this without creating duplicate frames. DGPulldown does a perfectly good job changing 23.976->25fps without creating the dupe frames which leads to the 1-jerk-a-second he's describing.

[jagabo]

/DGPulldown]DGPulldown[/url] does a perfectly good job changing 23.976->25fps without creating the dupe frames which leads to the 1-jerk-a-second he's describing.

It creates two little jerks per second instead of one big jerk. Still not as smooth as simply speeding up the frame rate.

[manono]

It creates two little jerks per second instead of one big jerk. Still not as smooth as simply speeding up the frame rate.

And I'm well aware of that. I think the problem probably is one dupe frame a second, as johns0 says. But I had thought, based on what I read here, that DVD Flick did a decent conversion. That's why a sample would be helpful, even if only to confirm what johns0 says. Me, I prefer to keep the movement and audio at the more "natural" 24fps. Audio framerate conversions often create artifacts, especially the ones that try to keep the correct pitch. Which is why it isn't often done (the same-pitch-faster-playing variety). But the johns0 guide for this also puts the audio at a higher and unnatural pitch:

http://johnisme.shawbiz.ca/avi.shtml

Since I'm so used to 3:2 pulldown anyway, an even less jerky 23.976->25 pulldown won't bother me. That might be something, though, for jimdagys to decide for himself.

[AlanHK]

playing NTSC discs on PAL equipment often results in jerky/juddery artifacts,

Not that I've noticed.
And I've lived in PAL countries all my life, and play quite a lot of NTSC videos on PAL equipment (almost all "PAL" equipment is actually "multi-system" anyway).

Perhaps the reverse is true.

If the source is 23.976 fps just do pulldown and make NTSC 29.997. It should play fine on (nominally) PAL equipment. I do it all the time.

[johns0]

It creates two little jerks per second instead of one big jerk. Still not as smooth as simply speeding up the frame rate.

And I'm well aware of that. I think the problem probably is one dupe frame a second, as johns0 says. But I had thought, based on what I read here, that DVD Flick did a decent conversion. That's why a sample would be helpful, even if only to confirm what johns0 says. Me, I prefer to keep the movement and audio at the more "natural" 24fps. Audio framerate conversions often create artifacts, especially the ones that try to keep the correct pitch. Which is why it isn't often done (the same-pitch-faster-playing variety). But the johns0 guide for this also puts the audio at a higher and unnatural pitch:

http://johnisme.shawbiz.ca/avi.shtml

Since I'm so used to 3:2 pulldown anyway, an even less jerky 23.976->25 pulldown won't bother me. That might be something, though, for jimdagys to decide for himself.

My guide is mainly for pal-ntsc where the pal video almost always have that higher and unnatural pitch due to being speeded.most people dont notice or care about 4% speeded up sound for ntsc-pal anyways.

[tomlee59]

playing NTSC discs on PAL equipment often results in jerky/juddery artifacts,

Perhaps the reverse is true.

If the source is 23.976 fps just do pulldown and make NTSC 29.997. It should play fine on (nominally) PAL equipment. I do it all the time.

You are absolutely right -- I typed my statement exactly bassackwards. Thanks for the correction!

[manono]

most people dont notice or care about 4% speeded up sound for ntsc-pal anyways.

Matter of opinion. Maybe most don't know about the issue, but I think many more would both notice and care if they did know. If you're a musician or have perfect pitch, PAL audio sounds very annoying. And many others that might know well the voice of a favorite actor can easily tell when it's a PAL version of that voice being heard.

If you think the issue isn't important, then take a minute to play these 4 short snippits of songs and then tell me it's not obvious that they sound very different from each other. There are 2 pairs, the first of each pair is PAL 25fps and the second NTSC 24fps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cDQmJb13rw&feature=PlayList&p=105EA7A3F0DBDAAB&index=0&playnext=1

[johns0]

The issue isnt important,i can tell the difference right away,lot of people i know dont notice,whatever makes a person happy with whatever conversion they want to do,for pal-ntsc i slow down the video and audio cause it usually sounds like chipmunks to me due to the 23.976 to 25fps conversion.

lf i lived in pal regions i would keep the audio the same rate and do dgpulldown on re-encoded 720x576 at 23.976.

[manono]

Then you just made my point and contradicted your own advice you gave to jimdagys:

Load avi in virtualdub,choose video/framerate,change from 23.976 to 25fps,in video select direct stream copy,save avi as,extract audio,open eac3to and load extracted audio and choose pal speedup,mux avi and saved audio.Then convert.

My advice to him, if DVD Flick really is duplicating frames (and if, for some peculiar reason, he needs a true PAL DVD), would be to use FAVC instead as it does use the Pulldown method. Or, if he's really serious about this video encoding hobby of his, learn some AviSynth and do it all manually.

[johns0]

Whatever works for the original op,if the dgpulldown works then use it,if not then use my method.Some files are picky on the way they get changed so i have used both methods in the past.

[jimdagys]

Could some please download and look at the above 1 minute clip of rolling credits that I posted, download and install DVD Flick (from this site) and spend 1 minute encoding the AVI to Pal DVD. Then you can see clearly what I am talking about. I am still trying to find the answer to the following questions:
1) Generally speaking, when using a cheap DVD player and using the DVD player to convert the frame rate (like from ntsc to pal), will this cause jerking/artifacts?
2) Generally speaking if you live in pal country and you use the TV to convert the frame rate
(like from ntsc to pal), will this cause jerking/artifacts?

[AlanHK]

2) Generally speaking if you live in pal country and you use the TV to convert the frame rate
(like from ntsc to pal), will this cause jerking/artifacts?

As far as I know, my TV doesn't "convert" frame rates, it just switches from one mode to another.

[jagabo]

As I understand it, most PAL TVs will switch to 60 Hz scanning when playing NTSC material. This means your 24 fps video with pulldown flags should exhibit only the 3:2 judder that NTSC TVs have.