Encoder with no quality loss

[JamesDV]

I'm looking for a freeware video converter, ideally with the ability to select the frame rate, that will convert *.VRO (that would be amazing, but I doubt there are many out there) or *.mpg or *.AVI to *.DV
I can convert *.VRO to .mpeg using MPEG Streamclip (squared5.com) and *.VRO to *. MP4, *.m4v, *.OGM, *.MKV and *.AVI using handbrake.
Really what I'm looking for is a freeware that encoder that can do convert as well as DV Kitchen 2.0 can.

[JamesDV]

I forgot to mention, it's for Final Cut so must be on Mac

[poisondeathray]

avidemux is cross platform, and accepts .vro natively from most dvd recorders (at least on windows)

Why do you want to convert it? You will get some quality loss, because dv is lossy. Nothing you can do about that. If you used a lossless format (e.g. huffyuv, lagarith, ffv1) , then there will be no quality impairment, but the filesize will be huge

You may have to switch the field order depending on your source characteristics and convert the audio e.g. if it's ac3 you have to convert it because unsupported for dv (if you record TFF, dv is BFF, there is a filter in avidemux for this)

[JamesDV]

Well Final Cut doesn't accept the file formats I've tried and will accept DV.

[poisondeathray]

Doesn't FCP accept MPEG2 ? , I think it's listed on the input formats

Most VRO recordings are MPEG2/AC3. You might be able to just re-wrap it MPEG2-PS - no quality loss, no increase in filesize, no field order swap, no time re-encoding

In avidemux,
video=>copy
audio=>copy
format=>mpeg2-ps
press save with extension (e.g. "myfile.mpg")

Try it out on a short clip. If not, plan B could be to use lossless, or DV (with field swap)

[Baldrick]

Moving you to our mac section.

[terryj]

FCP only likes, like all Quicktime Based NLEs, DV Stream
as the properitary format. You can take Mpeg-2 and run through
Quicktime Pro and get into DV Stream (same as MpegStreamclip)
for ingestion into DV Stream. (Both require the Quicktime Mpeg-2 add on).

and @ poison deathray:
FCP cannot demux on the fly
Mpeg-2 files upon import, it will throw out the audio and only bring in the video.
A limitation I suspect that has to do more so with
licensing than actual functionality.
8)

[JamesDV]

[quote="poisondeathray"]format=>mpeg2-ps/quote]
It doesn't give me that option.
Is there any quality loss in handbrake? Or mpeg streamclip?
This is what comes up when I try to import the *.m4v *.avi *.mp4 *.vro *.mpg etc. into Final Cut from mpeg streamclip and handbrake:
Files to import:

When I've asked to import one file from above:

or


When I import the *.m4v from handbrake to iMovie, then export that as an *.m4v this comes up


Note that the viewer will play the video, however this comes up in I play the timeline:

Why is this and how can I avoid it?
[/img]

[jpschuck]

As far as I know, MPEGStreamclip is able to export to DV from any recognized file. So if you can transcode .VRO to .mpeg, you should also be able to export .VRO to DV.

[greymalkin]

you keep asking for no quality loss. this is not possible.

[JamesDV]

Can I convert from *.mpg with no or little quality loss?
My questions are still unanswered but thanks for the help.

[jpschuck]

As I told you, cou can convert .mpg (MPEG-1) to .dv (little quality loss) with Mpegstreamclip. If your .mpg file uses MPEG-2, you will also need the MPEG-2 component for Quicktime.

You can also use MPEGStreamclip in combination with the enSharpen component (149$), which allows lossless Theora encoding/decoding with any Quicktime based application.

[terryj]

James,
*shakes head* Have you not read the FCP manual yet?


Beside the questions regarding quality loss, here is hopefully the answers
to your questions as related to your pictures, starting in order:

1. Import gives Stop Sign error; FCp doesn't recognize the file type
as its default ( DV) or Quicktime importable ( .mov). Render from
Mpegstreamclip as DV Stream, try import of said DV Stream.

2. export from HB, into FCp, Drop into Timeline, FCP says "this isn't
my default import file, so I must re-render it, and I'll let you know this by
two things: one, I'll put the VIDEO MUST BE RENDERED RED BAR
along the top of the timeline, and two, I'll tell you the video is
unrendered in the Canvas Preview Window."
Meaning ( drum roll) You have to go back and either drop in
a proper DV Stream, or perform a Render All ( cmd -R) on
the footage so I can generate a DV Stream temp file.

So along with the fact you need MpegStreamclip and QT component
to convert .mpg, .mp4, and .vro to DV STREAM to get into FCP,
this should answer everything finally.

[VidEd]

I have had some problems dropping handbrake files into FCP. I make sure that I change the output codecs to MPEG-4 Video/ACC Audio. I also make sure that I use the FFmpeg encoder.

I agree with the above quote, when that didn't work, I would use QT PRO and convert it to a DV Stream. FCP would accept this format when others didn't work.

[JamesDV]

Thanks for all the help, what I've done is convert *.vro to *.m4v using HandBrake (suspected loss of quality, is this avoidable?) Put the output of HandBrake into iMovie, exported that as a *.m4v (I'm assuming there is no loss of quality here) put into Final Cut, rendered (cmd + R) and it's now editable.
The only thing is the quality, Is there something better that HandBrake? For converting *.vro to iMovie recognizable file?
I don't have QT PRO.
I can't put the *.vro or *.mpg through MPEG Streamclip convert to DV because I don't have this component http://www.apple.com/quicktime/mpeg2
Basically, is there a lossless and free way to convert *.vro or *.mpg to something Final Cut will recognize to the extent it will import.
Also when rendering in Final Cut (cmd + R) I'm assuming that is lossless (sorry for going on about not losing any quality, it's just from transferring it onto the computer it's lost a lot already).
Thank you for all help!

[tomlee59]

Also when rendering in Final Cut (cmd + R) I'm assuming that is lossless (sorry for going on about not losing any quality, it's just from transferring it onto the computer it's lost a lot already).
Thank you for all help!

James, you're killing us.

ALL of the formats you are talking about are lossy: MPEG (all forms) and DV are lossy. Transforming from any one of them to any other one of them will produce additional loss. You cannot avoid it. Repeat: Give up the idea of lossless conversion in what you are doing. There is no such option in your workflow, so quit wasting time seeking that which does not exist.

The best you can do is reduce the amount of loss that you will inevitably suffer. And to do that, you must use the maximum practical bitrates, and the maximum resolutions consistent with the source's limitations. Among your choices, select DV as the target format, as has already been suggested. The file will be large, but that's unavoidable. That's it. What you get is what you get.

[Herve]

the "less loosy format" will be to convert .vro to .mov with AIC video (huge files on disk too)
DV NTSC is not so great for your purpose (but less bad than your processes ), because it doesn't have the same color range that vro/mpeg2 (so there will be some lose).
…but keep your processes, you don't want to spend 20 bucks

bye

[terryj]

Also when rendering in Final Cut (cmd + R) I'm assuming that is lossless (sorry for going on about not losing any quality, it's just from transferring it onto the computer it's lost a lot already).
Thank you for all help!

James, you're killing us.

For once , I'm agreeing with Tom here... 8)

Spend $20 bucks, and quit trying to shoehorn a limo in a compact car space
and still expect it to be perfectly intact without dings...That's what you keep trying
to accomplish and 5 people in consensus have given you an answer.
Sorry it's not what you want to hear, but it's the truth.

You take .vro to a compressed lossy end file like .m4v, then bring it back into iMovie,
which re-renders it to DV for intermediate editing and then you export that back
to .m4v Again to import into FCP, which then still has to render the file back again to DV
for editing?!?!?
DO you see how foolish this is?
That limo looks like a sub compact it has so many dings in it now.....


So HOPEFULLY, this will answer your question:

Basically, is there a lossless and free way to convert *.vro or *.mpg to something Final Cut will recognize?

NO!

[JamesDV]

convert .mpg (MPEG-1) to .dv (little quality loss) with Mpegstreamclip. If your .mpg file uses MPEG-2, you will also need the MPEG-2 component for Quicktime.

I don't have this component, but if it will result in the littlest quality loss as possible, I'll buy it.

1. Import gives Stop Sign error; FCp doesn't recognize the file type
as its default ( DV) or Quicktime importable ( .mov). Render from
Mpegstreamclip as DV Stream, try import of said DV Stream.

It doesn't do this.

export from HB, into FCp, Drop into Timeline, FCP says "this isn't
my default import file, so I must re-render it, and I'll let you know this by
two things: one, I'll put the VIDEO MUST BE RENDERED RED BAR
along the top of the timeline, and two, I'll tell you the video is
unrendered in the Canvas Preview Window."
Meaning ( drum roll) You have to go back and either drop in
a proper DV Stream, or perform a Render All ( cmd -R) on
the footage so I can generate a DV Stream temp file.

When I import the output of HB into Final Cut, it says:

[/img]

[edDV]

It might help if you describe the types of editing you expect to do in FCP and the destination format.

I think you may be using the wrong tool for the job. Your *vro source is already low quality DVD MPeg2. You can cut MPeg2 without recode loss using other tools. If you need filters or effects there may be less "lossy" workflows than FCP. FCP like most pro editors assumes a high quality source* workflow. It is not designed or structured for consumer video intake although it can do it.

I guess I'm asking what you are trying to do and why FCP? It seems to be a force fit.

And I'll add my name to the list that you first need to pay up for the Quicktime MPeg2 decoder if you expect to import. You may be able to play the file, but the red line indicates a decode render is necessary to move the content to the timeline.


* DV camcorder or better.

[terryj]

1. Import gives Stop Sign error; FCp doesn't recognize the file type
as its default ( DV) or Quicktime importable ( .mov). Render from
Mpegstreamclip as DV Stream, try import of said DV Stream.

It doesn't do this.
When I import the output of HB into Final Cut, it says:
[imgmax snipped]

THIS IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!!!
Your image you posted here shows the Red Stop Sign,
which says" Hey give me a DV Stream file instead of this crap file!"

Go get the QT Mpeg-2 Component, pay the $20 and be done already......

[JamesDV]

You'll be pleased to know I got the QT mpeg2 component.
When converting to DV which are the best settings to select? All I've changed from the default settings is I've checked the "Deinterlace Video" box. Which is the highest quality compression? (You choose from "DV( DV25)", "DVCPRO25" and "DVCPRO50".) I don't mind much about output file size.
Thanks to everyone for their patience and helpfulness.

[terryj]

DV doesn't have compression per se.
Those settings refer to the end format you
are working in, from what type of camera
you shot the footage on.

FCP will accept all, but since this isn't from a specific camera,
stick with DV (DV25).

[JamesDV]

FCP will accept all, but since this isn't from a specific camera,
stick with DV (DV25).

Is that the highest resolution choice? Any other settings?
This is what you get with MPEG-4 and what I would choose:

This is what you get with DV - this is what I assume to be the highest resolution settings from what you've suggested:

As I said before I don't care how big the output file size is.

[edDV]

Again would you try to give us an overview of what you are trying to do?

This was the first mention of HD video. You said *.VRO ? What was your source camera?

And why are you deinterlacing the video?

We can't guess at this. You are wasting everyone's time.

[terryj]

FORGET MPEG-4. It is is lossy [b]and[/vb] FCP will have to dumb it down to
DV for it to be usuable.

James, we've gone round and round on this.
The answers have been laid out for you,
some step by step.

I agree with edDV....what are you trying to do,
that you can't simply follow the steps we gave you,
steps right out of the FCP manual in most cases....?