So... what's new with PC video capture cards this year?

[edDV]

Sure you are getting the 2.0 downmix and not just the left/right channels? Voices are on the center channel.

[c627627]

I cannot believe I got through to the AMD/ATi phone jungle and talked to somebody about this, but I did!

ATi ATi TV Wonder HD 650 cannot capture uncompressed video. They said that the "older cards with older software" can and the last one to do so at full 720 x 480 resolution was the TV Wonder Pro. [I had to ask at full res since I now the older cards like TV Wonder VE could not do 720x480].

I said by "older software" do you mean ATi Multimedia Center, and he said yes. So pass on the word in future threads guys, TV Wonder Pro PCI is the last one to capture uncompressed video. No ATi PCIe cards can.... crap.


EDIT: Since it appears AVermedia/Hauppauge cards can't either, this means no (reasonably priced) card on the market in 2009 can capture uncompressed video!? How can that be?

[c627627]

I installed the ATI TV Wonder Pro - $15 shipped [without the purple S-Video/Component audio/video connectors but I had that leftover from my old All-In-Wonder and it is compatible.] The volume of captures is adjustable and is great. For that reason alone, I had to choose it over Hauppauge. Fully adjustable everything for MPEG recording. To be fair, I needed to capture stuff to make DVDs out of, Hauppauge would be better for record/watch/erase situations.


ATi is a nightmare to setup and I would never start installing ATi software without drive imaging my system. Luckily some time ago I documented everything I learned about ATI Multimedia Center here: https://forum.videohelp.com/topic324312.html


However I did hit a snag with .avi recording. The picture is black while the audio is OK. It turns out it was the drivers. ATi web site lists latest drivers as 6.13.10.8304 Jan. 23, 2004 but Windows update itself offered an optional 2005 driver update which completely fixed the problem. Of course the latest version of ATI MMC 9.16 doesn't work either. I'm sticking with ATI Multimedia Center 9.08.

I'd sure like to actually download and keep whatever driver update Windows Update offered for ATi TV Wonder Pro.

[c627627]

ATI TV Wonder Pro drivers available from ATi are version 6.13.10.8304 Jan. 23, 2004 [avi capture results in black screen]

Windows Update then updates them to version 6.14.10.8307 3/30/2005 [avi capture OK]


How & where can I get a hold of these updated drivers as a separate download?


EDIT: I do believe I managed to extract the updated drivers from Windows XP itself, here they are in case search engines hit this thread and someone needs them (for update only):
ATI TV Wonder Pro A/V Capture 6.14.10.8307 3-30-2005 ATI Technologies
6.14.10.8307.zip

[DarrellS]

Did you update the MMC also? ATI shows MMC 9.16 for this card.
http://support.amd.com/US/GPUDOWNLOAD/Pages/tvwonderpro-xp.aspx

Here is the manual also if you need to download it...

http://www2.ati.com/manuals/TVwonPro.pdf


Not sure which MMC I used with my AIW 64 VE but I could capture straight to DivX with it which made editing with Smart Render in Virtualdub a breeze. I could not do that with early versions of MMC.

[c627627]

Hey thanks for that Getting Started Guide, is that the official manual, where is the page on ATi's web site that has a link to it, I was looking for it but they only had the driver and MMC 9.16.

I had to drive image my operating system partition back since MMC 9.16 didn't work for me now or for my old card either. For straight up capturing to DVD, I only recommend MMC 9.08 because of this: https://forum.videohelp.com/images/guides/p1670144/v9.03_may%20be_more_stable_than%20la...r_versions.txt


But you may be correct about needing to do other stuff only available on later versions.

[DarrellS]

I had to google to find the manual. Since AMD took over, it's hard to find anything on their website.

MMC 9.08 could be the version I was using. Does it have divx as a capture profile?

[c627627]

Thanks again for finding the manual, I do not see the words divx anywhere in 9.08. Version 9.08 was followed by 9.13 which was very different and more similar to 9.14, 9.15 and the last version 9.16. (I have all versions 9.xx ever released.)

Versions released after 9.08 time shift video content: there is a delay between audio/video output and what is displayed on screen and appear to be less stable which is the reason I stay with 9.08 for direct capture.


There are no (affordable) PCIe cards that can capture uncompressed video in 2009 (!?) so TV Wonder Pro appears to be the last PCI card that can capture uncompressed video/audio plus it has very customizable MPEG2 DVD capture if you know what you're doing.


I have an i7 system with an XP SP3 / Vista SP2 dual boot, and here is how I set up TV Wonder Pro on both:


Manually install the drivers:

• Windows XP: Install from a list or specific location (Advanced) > Next > Don't search. I will choose the driver to install. > Next > Next > Have Disk… button > Browse… to driver location

• Windows Vista: Device Manager > Update Driver Software... > Browse my computer for driver software > Let me pick from a list of device drivers on my computer


Install ATI Multimedia Center 9.08 then update ATI TV Wonder Pro A/V Capture drivers in Device Manager to ATI TV Wonder Pro A/V Capture version 6.14.10.8307 3-30-2005 ATI Technologies.

When installing Multimedia Center, select Custom, not Typical install. UNCHECK everything except TV.


For Windows Vista, Right click on Multimedia Center Setup.exe > Properties > Compatibility TAB >
CHECK: Run this program in compatibility mode for: Windows XP (Service Pack 2) > OK


Connect TV Wonder's Audio output to sound card's Line-In and select your sound card Line in as audio input when asked by Multimedia Center.

The rest again is https://forum.videohelp.com/images/guides/p1954142/ati_tv_setup.txt

[Nelson37]

There was a significant software change that happened between 9.08 and 9.13. If you look at the parts of the package and the included files, it would appear that the software encoder components changed.

They also respond differently to MPG settings, 9.08 and previous would average slightly below the set average bitrate and peaks nowhere near the max values, with average and max set to a narrow range. 9.13 and after will average slighly higher than specified bitrate and produce peaks dramatically higher than max specified, requiring lowered settings and a wider range. Overall quality and filesize considerations about equal, once you get the settings adjusted.

Not sure if the newer versions still use ATI's "hardware-assisted" MPG encoding. I was told long ago by an ATI tech that this consisted of onboard "memory register buffers" on the card. Exactly what or how much these actually do, I have no idea. Starting with the 550, there is an actual on-board MPG hardware encoder. My gripe with hardware encoding has always been a lack of controllability. Sure software is slower but CPU's gain speed faster then dedicated encoders.

Aspect-ratio control, auto-cropping, and in particular the Inverse Telicine function are better in the higher versions of MMC also, IMO. All VideoSoap options are removed, no great loss.

Have you tried using VirtualDub for AVI capturing with either card?

[c627627]

Yes, earlier in the thread we discussed how .avi uncompressed capture cannot be done with the Hauppage using VirtualDub or anything else.

I myself tested different versions of MMC long ago and also found that the quality is comparable, but I wasn't aware that Aspect-ratio control, auto-cropping, and Inverse Telecine was better in 9.13 vs. 9.08. Should I ever need these I would only then temporarily install 9.13. But can you post as to how exactly are higher versions better for these rarely used functions (for me)?


My Intel i7 CPU @ 4GHz allows me to do whatever I want on top of capturing at the same time so CPU is no longer an issue.

[edDV]

Virtualdub works with the AIW cards I've used (8500DV, 98xx) but one gives up any hardware acceleration.

[c627627]

Yes, with ATi it does but not Hauppauge.

But I seem to remember comparing other programs to MMC and when it comes to ATi cards, MMC captures had clearly better quality than other programs, so why use VirtualDub or anything other than MMC when it comes to ATi cards, especially since MMC is fully customizable?

[edDV]

Yes, with ATi it does but not Hauppauge.

But I seem to remember comparing other programs to MMC and when it comes to ATi cards, MMC captures had clearly better quality than other programs, so why use VirtualDub or anything other than MMC when it comes to ATi cards, especially since MMC is fully customizable?

The AIW can be a simple Video for Windows capture card and in that mode preforms similarly to BT cards. I've never heard the argument that AIW uses other than comparable analog components or ADC parts. If you want better analog filtering and/or NTSC/PAL decode, one would use a pro card.

So when used with Virtualdub et.al. it becomes a software decision. MMC when working has wide functionality but you can get much better specialized software when using AVISynth processes but the learning curve is steep.

[c627627]

edDV, I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying for MPEG2-DVD capture use MMC but for uncompressed .avi video to be edited later, instead of MMC use VirtualDub?

[edDV]

edDV, I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying for MPEG2-DVD capture use MMC but for uncompressed .avi video to be edited later, instead of MMC use VirtualDub?

For uncompressed capture they do much the same thing. Your settings for raster size and YUYV/YUY2/RBG are much the same but Virtualdub defaults to RGB.

[jagabo]

VirtualDub can capture in YUY2 and save as such with HuffYUV. As long as you don't attempt any filtering while capturing.

[edDV]

VirtualDub can capture in YUY2 and save as such with HuffYUV. As long as you don't attempt any filtering while capturing.

Yes and MMC can do the same so they are equal. I'm away from the computers with MMC and Virtualdub but you can find the same VFW codecs under the "AVI" properties for both. Same place you find divx, xvid, mjpeg, cinepak, etc.

[c627627]

Years back, I took and posted screen captures that conclusively proved that ATi AIW 9600xt video capture quality to have been better using ATi Multimedia Center over other capture software.

I could do the same thing again if you guys want but you'd have to tell me exactly which settings to use for a direct comparison of .avi screen captures.

[jagabo]

I'd like to see 720x480 or 704x480, YUY2, compressed with HuffYUV. PNG snapshots with VirtualDubMod. Use a high quality source like a good DVD so you can record the exact same video with both.

[c627627]

ATI MMC 9.08 can capture as high as 720x480

VirtualDubMod 1.5.10.2 > File > Capture AVI
then
Video > Format > 320x240 captures OK but anything higher than that results in the following, so should I even bother with 320x240?

[c627627]

No difference to speak of:

320x240 Multimedia Center............... vs........... 320x240 VirtualDub

[DarrellS]

I never had any luck capturing with Virtualdub with my ATI AIW 7500 PCI. MMC was always the easiest and best software to use for me. ATI's .vcr captures always looked better than MPEG and DVD and was easy to convert to MPEG since it was really MPEG already.

I really liked the idea of capturing straight to Divx and using the newer Virtualdub to edit and smart render the captures. It sure saved a lot of work. Wish I could've used the AIW card when I bought my last two computers but I couldn't get both video cards to run together on the same PC. Two bad there wasn't an option to turn off the graphics part of the AIW card and use it as a tuner card.

[c627627]

There shouldn't be any difference between TV Wonder Pro and the old AIW as far as capture quality goes.

Just use your purple S-Video / component cable from your AIW and get yourself a bare TV Winder Pro PCI card for like $14 shipped (!)

[c627627]

There shouldn't be any difference between TV Wonder Pro and the old AIW as far as capture quality goes.

Just use your purple S-Video / component cable from your AIW and get yourself a bare TV Winder Pro PCI card for like $14 shipped (!)

[c627627]

There shouldn't be any difference between TV Wonder Pro and the old AIW as far as capture quality goes.

Just use your purple S-Video / component cable from your AIW and get yourself a bare TV Winder Pro PCI card for like $14 shipped (!)

[c627627]

Somebody over at Rage3D posted that there were also these video capture cards:
http://www.fusionhdtv.co.kr/ENG/Products/

[jagabo]

For some reason I never hear or see much about Dvico's HDTVFusion cards. The Tvix gets mentioned a lot though.

[Nelson37]

VirtualDub and MMC captures, Comparing AVI Only, should be nearly identical. Vdub can do a software Raid trick where video and audio are captured to different drives, helps with frame droppage. Should be able to full resolution, though there is a significant question as to what the actual capture resolution really is.

The control features I mentioned are extremely useful in one particular case. What I spent many years searching for, which is the best possible capture source for DVD output that is readily available for analog capture. Satellite HD channel captured thru S-Video. Correctly cropped anamorphic widescreen with minimal black bars, near-perfect duplicate frame removal for true progressive image, DVD-ready MPG file. Source video is definitely higher definition than standard channel. Analog capture does not get any better than this. Free OTA can give similar results, though generally not as good. Cable in my area absolutely sucked, YMMV.

It can also do subtitles, with a little work.

Previous (9.08) versions had these features, but they worked somewhat differently and generally not as well. Editing IVTC'd files was often problematic. Later versions removed these issues. I should mention that if you do use 9.13 or later, you have to set the max bitrate to around 8.0 to 8.5, unless your average is well below 6.0. Bitrate will spike to around 12.0 causing an invalid DVD file which will be rejected by most authoring programs. The files do, however, play just fine on a PC.

Latest MMC had an audio capture option that I had hoped could cap 5.1 AC-3 thru the SPDIF port, though I could not get that to work correctly. This can be done with secondary software but is only rarely worth the effort.

I never owned a TV Wonder Pro but I definitely recall lots of people having issues with it, in fact few reported satisfaction with the card. I think I've owned 5 AIW cards but never one of these.

[c627627]

HM. What kind of issues do you recall TV Wonder Pro having which were not present in AIW?


It does seem that .avi capture is similar/identical, but MPEG2 DVD capture was definitely better with MMC vs. other software when I tested it.

The separate capture to different hard drives might have made sense with older systems but the new i7 Intel processors are so powerful that frame dropping appears not to be a problem any more.


Please tell me what issues you remember TV Wonder Pro having though...

[Nelson37]

SFAIK, no other software besides MMC can use ATI's "hardware assist" for MPG capture. MMC will definitely work best with this card for MPG capture.

I'm trying to remember what the TV Wonder issues were, seems like there were a number of them. They are apparently significantly different from the AIW cards in some way that affects capture capabilities and software compatibility. I do know that various versions of MMC would not work with particular TV Wonder cards.

The general opinion on these cards was not very high. This was before the 550 series HD Wonder cards, which are completely different.

I did remember one other thing, regarding the add wording about "capture or convert" to various formats. the ATI Avivo software is supposed to allow conversions using the GPU (on some cards).