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  1. Senior Member c627627's Avatar
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    1. Uncompressed audio allows me to later on select which ac3 compression I should use based on available space on DVD.

    2. Sometimes I make a 45 minute documentary DVD, no need for compressed audio there since there's space for 60 minutes of max bit rate video + uncompressed audio, why compress already compressed audio if I don't have to?



    3. I thought these cards can only capture mpeg audio, you're saying that I can capture ac3 audio, but not from standard TV channels, but wait, aren't they *all* going to be digital in a few months, I guess I'm confused about basics.

    Which software can capture ac3 audio on the Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-2250?


    Here again is the choice of cards now, other than ATi, which of the other two brands can do uncompressed audio:
    • AVerMedia: http://www.avermedia-usa.com/AVerTV/product/ProductList.aspx?IID=5
    • Hauppauge: http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/prods_hvr_internal.html
    and
    • ATi: http://ati.amd.com/products/multimedia.html
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  2. Originally Posted by c627627
    3. I thought these cards can only capture mpeg audio, you're saying that I can capture ac3 audio, but not from standard TV channels, but wait, aren't they *all* going to be digital in a few months, I guess I'm confused about basics.
    All (most really) over the air broadcasts in the USA will be digital in a few months. That means ATSC capture with an antenna. You get the compressed digital audio and video exacctly as it is being broadcast -- MPEG 2 video, AC3 audio. Cable systems use QAM for digital channels. Capturing QAM gets you the exact compressed digital audio and video that the cable company sends you -- usually MPEG2 and AC3. Analog cable will likely be around for a long time. When you capture analog cable or via the 2250's composite/s-video/RCA inputs you get MPEG compressed video and audio using the card's hardware MPEG encoder.
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  3. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by c627627
    1. Uncompressed audio allows me to later on select which ac3 compression I should use based on available space on DVD.
    But you don't have access to uncompressed source, you are capturing decompressed AC3 or the 2 channel mix or converted MTS.


    Originally Posted by c627627
    2. Sometimes I make a 45 minute documentary DVD, no need for compressed audio there since there's space for 60 minutes of max bit rate video + uncompressed audio, why compress already compressed audio if I don't have to?
    Makes little difference after all the previous comrpession.

    Originally Posted by c627627
    3. I thought these cards can only capture mpeg audio, you're saying that I can capture ac3 audio, but not from standard TV channels, but wait, aren't they *all* going to be digital in a few months, I guess I'm confused about basics.
    I mean the "standard TV" digital channels. Broadcast digital in most cases means AC3 compression. It is there now and won't change in a few months. If you cap the broadcast stream you are getting the AC3 (2.0 or 5.1) that left the TV station. If you decompress it to base audio, you have loss and 2 to 6 channels. Are you capping them all or the 2 channel mix?
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  4. Member edDV's Avatar
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    I didn't see jagabo's post before I responded.

    I think we are both wondering how you view broadcast or cable audio capture.

    Uncompressed capture is usually an issue for original source not multiple compression chains.
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  5. Senior Member c627627's Avatar
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    I understand. I recognize some names in this thread, so I just want to say that whatever it is that I think I know, it was you guys that taught me a few years ago. First off, I recall you said that ac3 Dolby Digital audio is compatible with all DVD players in USA whereas MPEG audio is compatible with some, but not all DVD players. So I need my audio in ac3, not mpeg, to be 100% compatible, so can we just confirm that to start?


    So then if I need my audio in ac3, not mpeg, to make a 100% compatible DVD disc, I look at that WinTV software Hauppauge uses and if I select over the air antenna double digit channel, I can see that AC-3 audio option is there but is grayed out and people say WinTV only captures mpeg audio and not ac3 [see top part of the attachment] so how can I capture ac3 audio then if there is no software that captures ac3 directly?

    If I select a four digit over the air HD channel, I get only one option: DVD 2048 bytes, well what's the audio there, mpeg still or ac3? [see bottom part of the attachment to this post]
    Edit: I guess those are HD, they're not for making standard DVDs out of unless I render the video down to standard TV but then it'll also have those black bars like when I used to capture from an HD channel to my old standard capture ATi?


    Two side questions:
    1. Why is 384 audio bit rate max, I thought that 448 was?
    2. Stereo, Joint Stereo or Dual Channel for Audio input type?

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  6. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by c627627
    I understand. I recognize some names in this thread, so I just want to say that whatever it is that I think I know, it was you guys that taught me a few years ago. First off, I recall you said that ac3 Dolby Digital audio is compatible with all DVD players in USA whereas MPEG audio is compatible with some, but not all DVD players. So I need my audio in ac3, not mpeg, to be 100% compatible, so can we just confirm that to start?
    Why? So you can distribute the end result to every DVD player out there? You should be able to test what your player can handle.

    An ATSC/QAM tuner will give you a synchronized multi channel AC3 stream as part of the mux in most cases.

    Analog capture may get you a downmixed stereo pair or just the left and right track without center voice track.

    So for OTA or QAM locals you get the full sound as broadcast . For cable channels the options are limited. It may be possible to analog capture 6 separate audio tracks but I haven't attempted that.
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  7. Senior Member c627627's Avatar
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    Re ' distributing the end result to every DVD player out there': Nah, my personal DVD player can handle this but I'd like to put some PBS cartoons on a disc that might be used on a really old DVD player that somebody gave to the kids, that sort of a situation... so if there's no choice, then there's no choice but is it unreasonable to wish to be compatible with old DVD players since some kids tend to end up with an old DVD player bought at a garage sale...


    I understand that your post above this one is about how channels are broadcast. My questions regarding capturing those broadcasts in the post above yours still stand.
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  8. The only time you will get MPG audio is when doing an analog capture with standard stereo sound being input. This is quite simple to convert to AC-3 for maximum compatibility. Takes minutes and can be easily automated, quality loss is minimal.

    When you capture either OTA or QAM digital channels, there is no encoding or change to the broadcast signal, you will get AC-3 sound, with however an HD picture (usually) which must be resized for DVD.

    It IS possible to capture analog AC-3, requires a 24-bit card and second software and capture, synching is a pain but possible.

    Somebody a while back ran quite a few detailed tests comparing 704 vs 720 for DVD playback, and determined pretty conclusively that there was absolutely no difference between the two.

    I have a Hauppage 1600 and several ATI cards. If the goal is DVD, which it mostly isn't anymore, the ATI is simpler, easier, and better quality with the right source. I use the Hauppage for OTA HD.
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  9. The four digit channels are digital (ATSC SD and HD) broadcasts. The two digit channels are analog broadcasts.

    With digital broadcasts (ATSC and QAM) the HVR-2250 simply downloads the digital stream. So whatever the broadcaster is sending is what you get. I have only seen MPEG2 video and AC3 (2.0 and 5.1) audio.

    With analog captures you get what the MPEG encoder chip in the HVR-2250 can output. MPEG2 video and stereo MP2 audio. If you want AC3 audio for DVD you'll have to capture MP2 and convert to AC3 later.

    There's no reason to go higher than 384 kbps with a stereo source. Nobody can hear a difference between uncompressed PCM and MP2 at 384 kbps.
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  10. Senior Member c627627's Avatar
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    OK. Thank you very much. 1. Sounds like for analog broadcasts I will have to, and have no other option, but to capture 384 kbps mpeg audio, then convert to 384 kbps AC-3 audio or lesser quality AC-3 but I should stay with 384 kbps AC-3 if there's space, right? I can do that, I know how to do that.


    2. If the same program is being broadcast on a four digital channel, I can capture and render to 720x480, but I shouldn't if the same program is being broadcast on a two digit channel where I can directly capture it to 720x480 DVD. Given a choice, that's what I should do, right?


    P.S. Since ATi uses software to allow for some of the settings, I still don't understand why there isn't software for Hauppauge/AVerMedia, you'd think someone somewhere would've made it...
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  11. Senior Member c627627's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Nelson37
    It IS possible to capture analog AC-3, requires a 24-bit card and second software and capture, synching is a pain but possible.

    Somebody a while back ran quite a few detailed tests comparing 704 vs 720 for DVD playback, and determined pretty conclusively that there was absolutely no difference between the two.

    I have a Hauppage 1600 and several ATI cards. If the goal is DVD, which it mostly isn't anymore, the ATI is simpler, easier, and better quality with the right source. I use the Hauppage for OTA HD.
    Thank you for posting, as I have used and figured out ATI Multimedia Center to a great degree, it's simpler for me but would you please tell me more about why you think ATi is "better quality" over Hauppauge/AVerMedia for making standard DVDs?

    So you guys are correcting yourselves now regarding 704x480 vs. 720x480 for VHS and standard TV capturing? I just wanted to make sure everyone agrees about that so that if I ever use ATi again I don't bother setting up 704x480.


    P.S. Just out of curiosity, can you give me some links on who and how did the painful synching approach...
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  12. Who's disagreeing about 720x480 vs 704x480? They are essentially the same thing. They are both DVD compatible and both will look the same when you watch the DVD.

    I think this is what you are not grasping about the Hauppauge HVR-2250: analog audio and video are already MPEG encoded by the 2250 before any software on the computer gets ahold of it. All the software does is write the MPEG data to a file (and display it on the screen). Using the old ATI AIW the card hands uncompressed frames to the CPU and then software takes over. So the software can do any image processing and then compresses to MPEG or Divx or AC3 or whatever it wants.
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  13. Senior Member c627627's Avatar
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    OK, but the poster above you did use words "better quality" when talking about ATi to DVD vs. Hauppauge/AVerMedia to DVD, which is why I asked.


    I just want to note that there are two kinds of discussions, one is about essentially the same things, and the other is technical where, although the differences are not large enough to be detected on a huge level, there is a technical difference so given a choice which should a person choose to be technically accurate is what the questions could be turned into. I watch my TV through my stereo connected to four speakers the size of cows... perhaps higher audio quality does make a difference for me, perhaps not...
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  14. The Hauppage can directly record HD, which the ATI cannot do. However, this needs a resize and a re-encode for DVD. The Hauppage can record and encode analog, but with few settings and controls available. There used to be some registry tweaks for the older cards, I don't know if your model has any such available. Capturing AVI and uncompressed audio was possible with some models.

    For the "better quality to DVD", start with an HD channel. Use the S-Video output from a company box or digital converter. The quality of the downsize is somewhat variable, but universally better than starting from an SD channel. Now capture this with the ATI, using the available settings for bitrate efficiency, also IVTC and Widescreen, if applicable. Ready-to-burn, no manipulation necessary, and superior to both the Hauppage-encoded SD capture from the same source and a re-encoded and re-sized HD capture,again from the Hauppage, IMO. Especially noting the time and hassle savings.

    As for the AC-3 and synching procedure, search on my name and AC-3, you'll find lots of info. There is some sort of gradual time difference between the original HD broadcast and the S-video version, got to be some minor framerate issue. Haven't really nailed this down, but the audio runs roughly one second slow per hour. If you are into trying this, I would be very interested in your results. There has just got to be a simple answer to this.

    There is no real reason to choose either 704 or 720 when DVD is the chosen output format, this was the result of the testing done by another poster. However, with some ATI cards in combination with some MMC versions, the two settings did sometimes give different results in conjuction with cropping, widescreen, IVTC, and other settings. Especially with the old VCR format. Newer cards and MMC do not seem to have this issue. What version MMC are you using.
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  15. Senior Member c627627's Avatar
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    While my ATi card was working, I did capture some HD channels but the the picture was severely "black barred" not only on the top & bottom but on the sides as well. So my concern with capturing HD with ATi was the cropped picture.


    I did my first capture last night with Hauppauge and I just want to note that although Hauppauge has 720x480 only, the actual captured res was 704x480 through S-Video automatically, so that was interesting.


    I would be game to testing AC3, but since it's a compressed format simply converting 384 kbps mpeg to 384 (or lower?) ac3 before making a DVD is much simpler and quicker. This after all is what I always used to do, except I captured my audio uncompressed, then converted to ac3 at max kbps that could fit on the DVD. And if it was a DVD of less than 60 minutes, then I would just leave the audio uncompressed.



    Reading some of your replies, it just seems that it makes more sense for me to
    a. forget about uncompressed audio.
    b. simply convert from mpeg to ac3 audio just before making a DVD.
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  16. Senior Member c627627's Avatar
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    Nelson37, I'd like to try the registry tweaks since I just remembered this example: I take lots of footage from stand up comedy, then make just one DVD out of all that footage.

    I used to capture AVI, so that I could have little effects in between different comedians like the picture spins around and effects like that. Well I need uncompressed video to put in all the effects and than make a DVD.



    So I just realized, how am I gonna do that now, I don't want to be using mpeg video to insert the special effects then export to DVD. I definetely need to find a way to capture uncompressed video from TV which I can edit first and put together then make a DVD...
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  17. Originally Posted by c627627
    I'd like to try the registry tweaks...
    Amontillado's site appears to be gone:
    http://www.cask-of-amontillado.com/htpc.html
    http://web.archive.org/web/20071115121541/www.cask-of-amontillado.com/htpc.html

    SHS's site may list some of the tweaks:
    http://www.shspvr.com/

    Originally Posted by c627627
    I definetely need to find a way to capture uncompressed video
    You might be able to capture off the preview pin of the 2250's driver with GraphEdit. SHS has information about that.
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  18. Senior Member c627627's Avatar
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    I think the top priority right now is uncompressed video for purposes of editing.

    I tried your GraphEdit idea, this is a 192KB program, I tried it and I do not see the preview pin option you mentioned.
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  19. Not all Hauppauge cards have preview pins. Did you add the capture filter? Graph -> Insert filters -> Video Capture Sources -> Hauppauge whatever.

    You really picked the wrong card if you want uncompressed video capture.
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  20. Senior Member c627627's Avatar
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    For others reading this, which should have been chosen to capture quality MPEG to make DVDs out of, but to also have uncompressed capture option too so that captured videos can be edited:

    • AVerMedia: http://www.avermedia-usa.com/AVerTV/product/ProductList.aspx?IID=5
    • Hauppauge: http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/prods_hvr_internal.html
    and
    • ATi: http://ati.amd.com/products/multimedia.html


    Thanks for the GraphEdit tip, let's see if we can make this work yet, here's what I have and can you please tell me what next:





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  21. Click on one of the "Hauppauge WinTV Analog Capture..." items then press Insert Filter. That will add the filter to the main window. Look to see if it has a preview pin. From there on out it gets difficult trying to figure out what filters to use to create a file you can do something with.

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  22. Senior Member c627627's Avatar
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    As you can see below Insert Filter for both options adds as pictured. Since there is no Preview option, does that mean that cards such as this one cannot be used to capture uncompressed video?


    If that is the conclusion then which 2009 card would you guys pick for that:
    Originally Posted by c627627
    For others reading this, which should have been chosen to capture quality MPEG to make DVDs out of, but to also have uncompressed capture option too so that captured videos can be edited:

    • AVerMedia: http://www.avermedia-usa.com/AVerTV/product/ProductList.aspx?IID=5
    • Hauppauge: http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/prods_hvr_internal.html
    and
    • ATi: http://ati.amd.com/products/multimedia.html


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  23. Try right clicking on the Analog ITU Video pin and selecting Render. What happens? Assuming it makes a graph press the Play button at the top. Do you see video?

    I don't know exactly what your card supports but my old PVR-250 allows MPG capture up to 15,000 kbps. Captures at that bitrate are very clean and suitable for editing and reencoding to DVD bitrates.

    Regarding current capture cards: I don't know which ones can capture uncompressed or losslessly compressed.
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  24. Senior Member c627627's Avatar
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    This happens:



    So unless you have any other suggestions, is it safe to say uncompressed video is not possible with this card?



    But look at the issue with MPEG video I just discovered with WinTV, [first of all if I select any *constant* bit rate below 6,000 all is as it should be] but if I set any *constant* bit rate above 6,000, any one at all, this is what's captured, they're all at 6,000 kbps!




    And if I set a variable bit rate at 9500 or higher, they're all at 9,500 kbps Nominal:

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  25. Senior Member c627627's Avatar
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    Please correct me if I'm wrong. As far as the 2009 PCIe line-up goes:
    *None* of the AVerMedia or Hauppauge cards can capture uncompressed video.
    • AVerMedia: http://www.avermedia-usa.com/AVerTV/product/ProductList.aspx?IID=5
    • Hauppauge: http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/prods_hvr_internal.html

    And the supposedly top of the line Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-2250 card can only capture MPEG video at 6,000 kbps *constant* bit rates or less, although it can capture at 9,500 *variable* Nominal bit rates or less.

    [I'd like to double confirm this, so please suggest software other than Hauppauge's native WinTV to confirm that 6,000 kbps is the max *constant* bit rate it can capture.]


    • I know that ATi's Multimedia Center has the uncompressed video option for its All-In-Wonder video card. But as far as the standalon PCIe cards go, here's what appears to be the only ATi 2009 PCIe standalone card:

    http://ati.amd.com/products/tvwonder650/pcie/index.html


    Does that card appear to have uncompressed video capture option to you, and if so what are the pros & cons when compared to WinTV-HVR-2250 http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_hvr2250.html

    Earlier in the thread it was said that
    the pro may be
    * ATi offers the option of uncompressed analog SD capture.
    the con may be
    * ATi cards do not capture analog HD, only analog SD, and SD/HD ATSC and unencrpyted QAM.
    (I'm not sure what all this means in comparison to Hauppauge's flag ship WinTV-HVR-2250.)




    But the bottom line here is that I am seriously considering abandoning the
    WinTV-HVR-2250 http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_hvr2250.html
    in favor of http://ati.amd.com/products/tvwonder650/pcie/index.html


    What do you think?
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  26. I'm pretty sure MediaInfo only checks the header of the MPG file to determine the bitrate. The header can say anything -- it doesn't indicate what's really in the file. Check the bitrates with GSpot. It scans the files and reports the real bitrate.

    Also, setting your own bitrate in WinTV2000 is a little tricky (at least in the older version I have, I'm not sure about the more recent versions). You have to go to the Advanced dialog where you set bitrates. Set the audio and video bitrates, then go back to the Configuration tab, type in a name, and "Save New Config". Then go back to the previous dialog and select the profile you just created.
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  27. Senior Member c627627's Avatar
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    Yeah, I know, if I tried to make it less user friendly I couldn't, whoever designed the interface sucks.
    But the reason I know I did it correctly is because as long as I was below 6,000 kbps, MediaInfo correctly reported what I had set as contstant bit rate below 6,000.

    Funny thing, GSpot reports all of them as 10,080 VBR, look:

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  28. Senior Member c627627's Avatar
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    I have just also discovered the audio input level to be lower than my earlier captures of the same saved program that I made with my old ATi AIW9600XT. Did a little bit of digging and discovered this to be yet another confirmed deficiency of Hauppauge's flagship PCIe: WinTV-HVR-2250.


    There are windows registry files people posted that boost the audio input level which I'm getting ready to test now but damn, why bother, you know?

    If somebody can shed some light on the http://ati.amd.com/products/tvwonder650/pcie/index.html
    and tell me if it can capture uncompressed video and/or warn me against using it to replace the Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-2250, I'd sure appreciate it.
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  29. Senior Member c627627's Avatar
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    Registry edits did not help increase the volume. The drivers are also BSODing my system (Blue Screen of Death). The more I read the more of a nightmare Hauppauge card drivers & software appears to be. And I thought AVermedia was notorious for this.


    But look what I found:
    http://ati.amd.com/products/tvwonder650/ (scroll down to Feature-packed, User-Friendly Interface to see the below captured proof that it can capture uncompressed video AVI.)

    So unless you guys warn me against going with ATi, I'm leaning to just getting the TV Wonder 650 HD card and use it to capture uncompressed AVI as well as MPEG and do so with fewer hassles about volume levels and driver support and be able to capture at constant bit rates of over 6,000 kbps for sure.

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  30. Originally Posted by c627627
    Funny thing, GSpot reports all of them as 10,080 VBR, look:
    You're looking in the wrong place. The average video bitrate of that file is 3005 kbps.



    Regarding the ATI card you referenced and AVI, note it says "Capture or CONVERT..." But I do seem to recall reading in posts here that you can capture uncompressed AVI with that card.
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