DVD recorder flaws or funnies

[jwwright]

I have 2 samsung DVD recorders and 2 other players. The problem is inconsistency.
I have recorded many panasonic DVD ram discs and copied to DVD-r discs but recently I noticed the DVD-r were not always readable in the recdr they were made in.
They were all mostly finalized. About half wouldn't read. They also wouldn't read in the second DVD recorder.
In the players they read OK.

It seems the DVD-RWs work the best and when finalized I can read them in the DVD-ram recorder. Also if a particular DVD-RW disc doesn't play, I can reformat it in the PC, and then reformat it in the DVD-RW recorder.

Basically I seem to have the biggest problem in the oldest DVD-RAM recorder but I like that one because I can edit down to a frame, perfectly.

SO I guess the real question is, I'd like to get a new RAM recorder and I notice the DVD-RW's seem to be the ones available and they don't edit as nicely.

The other thing is Panasonioc produced a RAM disc colored green on top, not like the gold RAMs, but the dsame part number and they will not read. Panasonic said I needed and upgrade and sansung said no. I occasionally have the same ptroblem with Maxell rams.
I've cleaned all the players/recorders several times.

The general question is:
1) are dvds reliable for permanent recording? (everything backed up on VHS)
2) Is it the recorder or the discs aging?
3) Is the problems fixable by proper choice of disc maker or device maker?

regards

[filmboss80]

1. Nothing is reliable for PERMANENT recording, except celluloid-based motion picture film, but that is unreasonable. However, backing up to DVD is a decent intermediary stage.

2. DVD recorders age. DVD discs age. You did not mention the brand of DVD discs, but crappy media may be behind most of your current problems.

3. The problem is likely fixable. Buy only Verbatim or Taiyo Yuden discs. Do not edit from disc. (Copy to hard drive and then use a good mpeg-2 editing program and reauthor the DVD). I cannot say anything about your Samsung recorders, because I have never used one. I do not think there is a big future for DVD RAM, though.

[jwwright]

Thanks.
I've used Panasonic RAM (gold top), Maxell RAM, TDK -R, Sony -R, Sony -RW, Memorex -R and -RW. Never Verbatim or Taiyo Yuden.

For example, yesterday I viewd a TDK -R, with 3 movies, recorded last year and finalized on Samsung 1(RAM,R). SamsunR1 would not read it, SamsungR2 (RAM, RW, R) would not read it, but 2 Panasonic players (RAM,RW,R finalized VR) will play it. This morning in SamR1, it PLAYED. Turned SamR1 off, waited 5 mins and powered up - no read.
The -R copies are backups of mostly RAM recorded discs, or VHS. Some of the RAMs have been edited. That has been OK up till now.

A tech friend says he thinks the lasers get "weak" with age. Possibly some coating develops? I ran the head cleaner thru a cupla times and that might be helping - it's so inconsistent I can't tell.

My concern is all my home movies on SVHS to VHS and DVD, or 8mm to VHS and DVD are probably at risk. I hafta assume it will be the same wth Blu Ray.

Regards

[lordsmurf]

Lasers do get weaker with age. They can also simply get dirty, and that often happens before the laser weakens. A good cleaning helps. not those piece-of-junk "cleaning discs" -- rip-off products for idiots -- but dismantling the burner and swapping the eye with denatured or isopropyl alcohol.

TDK DVD-R = CMC = crap discs

[Astrovel]

I purchased and ultimately returned 2 LG DVD recorders because they wouldn't play back in other players. Recently bought a Toshiba DR560 and tried to record several programs (2 of them on PBS, 1 on Sat). It showed as being recorded but when I try to play it back, I get an error message that says "Eject disc. Playback feature may not be available on this disc". Disc is a Sony DVD-R which is one of the formats the recorder is supposed to use.

Why on earth would the recorder record a disc that could not be played back? It doesn't make sense.
The only thing I am wondering about is whether the program was copyrighted? Seems if that were the case, it would have stopped recording right away??? The LG was stopping on timer recordings when it came to a commercial that was copyrighted.
Does anyone know why a disc would not have a playback feature? The manual doesn't explain.

[jwwright]

Thanks for the LG remark, I was just looking at an LG.
I'm afraid that's a common problem.
You can try reinserting the disc several times.
I refrain from using sony discs in PC's also.

What I see in my Samsung manual leads me to exclude +RW discs.
I shared Ram discs between a VR330 and R4000 until the R4000 got erratic. That may be because the fan quit.

The problem with the r4000 began when it would not read a panasonic green top Ram - perhaps a virus?

I prefer recorders that rec ram as well as -rw, -r. But in fact, I see not why I would use a -r except on data/video I want to finalize and not be modified.

I think the lasers are prone to shock. And boards are sensitive to heat.
I also think it's possible copying dish broadcasts can incur a virus.

Regards

[lordsmurf]

I purchased and ultimately returned 2 LG DVD recorders because they wouldn't play back in other players. Recently bought a Toshiba DR560 and tried to record several programs (2 of them on PBS, 1 on Sat). It showed as being recorded but when I try to play it back, I get an error message that says "Eject disc. Playback feature may not be available on this disc". Disc is a Sony DVD-R which is one of the formats the recorder is supposed to use.

Why on earth would the recorder record a disc that could not be played back? It doesn't make sense.
The only thing I am wondering about is whether the program was copyrighted? Seems if that were the case, it would have stopped recording right away??? The LG was stopping on timer recordings when it came to a commercial that was copyrighted.
Does anyone know why a disc would not have a playback feature? The manual doesn't explain.

I have a Polaroid that acted this way. It was a terrible machine.

[jwwright]

Update on samsung r4000 is it quit altogether. I think the fan had failed. I did try to clean the lens by opening the burner, using a swab. My rule is now buy a combo unit - that way you still have a good VCR.

Anyway the DVD-R's I had made, work in a newer VR330.

I continue to have probs with each VR330 recording some DISH TV programs. It records but the next disk to go in will be rejected as defective. So I "reboot" it, unplug the power for a while. Then it will take the next disk.
It appears that using DVD-R instead of a rewrite DVR works a lot better.

So far I left that first DVD-R in the new unit to fill it and finalize before removing.

They appear to not like DVD-RAMs at all.
They will mark it such that it can be only used as a data disk on a PC with DVD-RAM capability. So I have a lotta backup disks for that PC.
I got that sony (shudder) DVD recrder cheap and it proved to be useful recovering the 15 new Panasonic RAMs with the green top. It won't restore the gold top??

Regards

[orsetto]

Geez, have you got a hot mess goin on here! I'll try to tackle one thing at a time, but you have a lot of interlocking issues:

First of all, what exactly are you doing with all these different disc formats? What is your workflow, how are you getting the contents of the RAM discs onto DVD-R or DVD-RW discs? Are you using a PC to make a digital copy or are you connecting two machines to make a real-time copy while performing edits on the R/W? The whole situation is a little unclear in your posts.

Samsung recorders are crap, they are known for making half-assed off-spec finalizations that don't play well with other hardware. Your Panasonics should be able to play their own RAM discs, at the very least: if they don't, something is seriously off. You might need to open them to clean the lenses and/or drive spindles (google "how to clean Panasonic dvd recorder spindle" for instructions). Your two players will have trouble reading discs if the media is full of errors or the Samsungs screwed up the finalization.

RAM media is reasonably stable and should last a long time, but if the surface gets contaminated by fingerprints or cigarette smoke they act up and need to be carefully cleaned off and then erased to bring them back to normal. R/W media is sketchy, especially the crummy brands you've been using: you have a really bad mix here of junk recorders burning junk R/W media causing problems soon after recording. Shoveling three movies onto one disc is pushing DVD technology to its limit: the more you stuff onto a disc, the less space it has for error relief.

Especially when copying tapes or otherwise making recordings you want to keep indefinitely, you need to burn onto high quality DVD-R media. The good stuff really doesn't cost much more than the junk, but it can be hard to find in stores. Use only Verbatim 16x DVD-R, or if you don't mind buying online, get the TY (Taiyo Yuden) 8x Premium DVD-R or Verbatim DataLife 8x DVD-R discs. Everything else for sale now is pretty bad and designed mostly for PC burning: avoid Memorex and TDK especially- yucch. Of the R/W brands, only Verbatim is worth a damn: for sure, no more Memorex. DVD-RAM brands are much less variable, so most DVD-RAM is OK, just be aware that Maxell DVD-RAM is quite good but all other Maxell media is crud due to the different factories.

If a great many of your discs are acting up, you'll either have to re-record them where possible from tape or rerun broadcasts, or use ISObuster on your PC to salvage the video from the bad discs and re-author it onto new ones. Going forward, ditch the Samsungs altogether and just buy another Panasonic recorder, uBid has factory refurbished EZ-48 VHS/DVD combo Pannys on sale now for $150 with warranty. Although for the kind of work you're doing, you'd be far better off with a DVD/HDD recorder- use the hard drive instead of RAM or R/W, its much easier to edit and has much higher capacity, then burn copies quickly onto DVD-R for your library. A Pioneer 460 can be bought from several Canadian eBay stores for about $249, this combines a 160GB hard drive with a DVD-R, -R/W and -RAM burner. A Panasonic EH-67 is similar but costs much more because its sold thru USA import dealers at about $400.

Its a common (and deadly) mistake to assume DVD can be used as casually as VHS, on the cheap: it can't. Cheap media is worthless, you HAVE to buy the good stuff. And the better DVD recorders were all discontinued a long time ago in the USA, the bare minimum recorder under $200 that isn't a pile of junk in US stores is Panasonic. All the current Samsungs, Toshibas, JVCs, and Sonys are now third-rate crap or churned out by subcontractors who just slap the big brand name on generic recorders. The only new "high-end" options left are the Pioneer or Panasonic DVD/HDD machines at $250-400, unless you buy one of the better older recorders second hand. (Some might also recommend the Phillips 3576 or Magnavox H2160 DVD/HDD machines: these are good, but they don't record to the RAM media you seem to prefer, and they're sold out everywhere anyway).

[jwwright]

Thanks very much.
I think I agree with what you say and what it is is backup on VHS tape.
I recently got the tayou disks and they work fine as well as HP disks.
Most what I do now is record lectures off of dish at 2 AM and I do that on both DVD and VCR and hoep I get one or the other.

I still think there is crap in the transmissions on TV. But there is not a lot to record there anyway.

My personal stuff - home videos, I never had a problem with.
My older -R's are readable the VR330's. As well as the RAM's which are the original rec's.

It went like this:
1 ) record an old movie on VHS or RAM or RW and edit
2 ) transfer to DVD-R and finalize when full.

Now I record on both RW and VHS. RAMS are not reliable.
Forget the edit.
When I transfer to -R, start and stop like we did using VCRs.

Unless you know a good editing video machine - I don't - The r4000 would edit perfectly but now gone.
I don't yet have the PC edit capabilty - I plan to get one.


Regards

[victoriabears]

The first dvd recorders were introduced in 2000 (?), here we are less than 10 years later with all this crap.

VHS was introduced lets say in 1980 as a mainstream, over 20 years later, those with well recorded and well stored collections can still play them back flawlessly.

Is there a moral here?

[jwwright]

The moral is" don't throw away your original copies.
It's not necessarily the media that goes bad.
Where are the 8 track players versus the audio cassetes?
Where are the 35 MM slide projectors?
Where are the 8 mm film projectors?

So the next move is blu ray. And judging by my success with DVD, forget it.
I still have a Zenith VCR, the second I bot, the first got stolen. It will record anything.

Set em on little pedastals (bottle caps) and open the back of wood cabinets for cooling and don't leave them on.
And don't scan your old polaroid's with anything but a video camera. They'll turn black.

Regards

[orsetto]

Is there a moral here?

Yeah, that lowly analog tape was overall a much better "consumer" format than recordable DVD .

For those of us with patience, motivation and a bit of technical savvy, recordable DVD (more specifically DVD/HDD recorders) was mostly a blessing. For the average consumer, it was a perplexing cruel joke: much harder to use and understand than the VHS many already had some trouble grasping. With DVD, there is no "dumb and dumber" use option for those who refuse to be bothered learning anything: if you don't follow the endless rules, you don't get a workable DVD. VHS did have a "brain switched off" option: plug the vcr into the wall, ignore every possible setting, put black tape over the flashing display, buy any random blank you saw on sale, and just use the play, record and stop buttons for everything.

Simple. Aside from badly malfunctioning machines causing tracking issues, no worries about compatability, and no worries about durability: as long as you didn't store your tapes in a damp or hot garage, they last a long damn time. A few unlucky people randomly report tape disintegration here from time to time, but the majority of us "oldsters" are sitting on mountains of tapes in our basements we haven't looked at since recording them in 1981, and they still play fine when we dust 'em off to make DVD transfers. I wouldn't want to go back to VHS, because DVD offers far better editing features, color reproduction and compact storage. But I do miss the universal simplicity and mass acceptance of VHS as a recording format.

[lordsmurf]

Is there a moral here?

Yeah, that lowly analog tape was overall a much better "consumer" format than recordable DVD .

For those of us with patience, motivation and a bit of technical savvy, recordable DVD (more specifically DVD/HDD recorders) was mostly a blessing. For the average consumer, it was a perplexing cruel joke: much harder to use and understand than the VHS many already had some trouble grasping. With DVD, there is no "dumb and dumber" use option for those who refuse to be bothered learning anything: if you don't follow the endless rules, you don't get a workable DVD. VHS did have a "brain switched off" option: plug the vcr into the wall, ignore every possible setting, put black tape over the flashing display, buy any random blank you saw on sale, and just use the play, record and stop buttons for everything.

Simple. Aside from badly malfunctioning machines causing tracking issues, no worries about compatability, and no worries about durability: as long as you didn't store your tapes in a damp or hot garage, they last a long damn time. A few unlucky people randomly report tape disintegration here from time to time, but the majority of us "oldsters" are sitting on mountains of tapes in our basements we haven't looked at since recording them in 1981, and they still play fine when we dust 'em off to make DVD transfers. I wouldn't want to go back to VHS, because DVD offers far better editing features, color reproduction and compact storage. But I do miss the universal simplicity and mass acceptance of VHS as a recording format.

Brilliant assessment. 8)

[victoriabears]

Yes agree, could go down as the biggest con in history, but then my outlook is very much governed by what i like watching, and Hi-def does not really make classic dramas look better. Imagine if D-VHS had been the "DVD" solution, and we donated all the money we have spent on DVD conversion to world hunger !

[jwwright]

I agree, but, I think I have a workaround.
When your RAM disk gets an error detection. close the slide and pull the power plug for an hour or so.
Restarting, the disk will load (in my VR330) and I can see the list and play it.

Don't bother deleting - reformat the disk at 6 hours. Don't record anything off the DISH using RAM. IMO the movies obviously have viruses. But I did record the farm channel in XP (one hour mode).
The result was a full disk with 17 items.

IT SEPARATED the ads. Can you believe that?

Regards

[jwwright]

Latest on Samsung recorders is they do pretty well, but I;ve had to clean the "eye" with a cotton swab and alcohol each several times.
For a while the Memorex-rw were the only disks they would take, then I had to buy Maxell and Sony. Suddenly one VR330 would do a write with an -rw, when beofre only a -r would work.

In one case I hafta fromat on one and finalize it, then move ot the other machine and unfinalize it to record.
These are brand new, no scratches disks and the get classified as not readable many times.
Takes a LOT of patience.

Fortunately, I was able to get a RAM recorder and that works better especially for editing precise frames.
The Samsungs have stopped playing RAM, and BTW, video movies as well.
All this must be electronic changes due to noise, heat, whatever.

I now have one that won't reject the disk and won't display the menu, most of the time.

Regards