X264 DVD rips look very pixelated compared to MPEG-2 i.e. DVDSrink

[Z.Sath]

Used DVD shrink for years, and thought I'd try X264 for the superior quality vs size it can deliver.

Done some Blu-ray rips via Ripbot and they are superb, but DVDs seem to get very pixelated when blown up to full screen.

I converted the Mission Impossible 3 DVD, on loads of different options - handbrake, fairuse, Ripbot etc. even went up to 2GB fit to size and CQ18, and the film looks fine till you get it on a big TV, then the pixelation becomes more and more apparent, as if it should be anti-aliasing the picture but it just isn't.

Thing is, I ripped it to a 4GB file using DVD shrink and the pixelation just isn't there when blown to full 42".

Any ideas what is happening and what I can do about it?

Thanks in advance!!

[hech54]

Correct me if I'm wrong but....are you saying someone told you that x264 is better quality than the MPEG2 you get from a DVD?

[jagabo]

At CQ18 the picture quality should be nearly indistinguishable from the source DVD. It also probably wont be hugely smaller (about two thirds the size?). Are you encoding h.264 with the same frame size (720x576) as the DVD? How is the image getting from the file to the HDTV? Maybe the player is skipping the deblocking that h.264 decoders usually perform. Or doesn't scale h.264 sources as well as DVD source?

[Z.Sath]

Hi guys

I'm not expecting X264 to be better quality than a DVD

I'm expecting a 2GB X264 rip to be about the same quality as a 4GB DVDshrink Rip, and in many ways it is

It's just like the X264 has jaggies around the detail when enlarged beyond it's true res.

Playback via WMP11 or WMPClassic+ffdshow - x264 looks sweet at original screen-res, but jagged when enlarged - a problem I don't get with a DVDShrink Rip.

[poisondeathray]

What settings are you using for the encoding? Post the logfile of one of your encodes, if you don't know.

There should be no pixellation at all (by "pixellation" I mean "square blockiness"), you have to purposefully turn deblocking off for this to occur either in the encoder or decoder settings (it's on by default); pehaps you changed some settings in the playback software?

Jaggies might occur if you are using high psy settings (psy rdo and psy trellis) - are the jaggies similar to ringing (like oversharpening) ? , or are they like deinterlacing artifacts? - another possibility is that you didn't IVTC or deinterlace properly

A properly done 2GB x264 DVD rip should look similar to a 4GB DVDShrink DVD rip ; if anything, I would say the DVDShrink rip is more prone to pixellation because of the lack of deblocking

[Z.Sath]

Last one I tried was Fairuse - don't know if this is ok

There's a lot of chain info then the meat of the thing.....

0:26:38 2868 _IndexProgress() : Loading program chain index...
10:26:50 2868 _IndexProgress() : Grouping sections by video type...
10:26:50 2868 _IndexProgress() : Synchronising streams...
10:26:51 2868 _RangeInit()
10:26:51 2868 Exiting _RangeInit();
10:26:51 2868 Entering _RangeActivate();
10:26:51 2868 PAL video
10:26:51 2868 Setting ranges
10:26:52 2868 ================================================== =====================
10:26:52 2868 AC3 Audio 0 = Stream 0
10:26:52 2868 AC3 Audio 1 = Stream 1
10:26:52 2868 ================================================== =====================
10:26:52 2868 Audio track found: 00: English, AC3, 448k/5.1
10:26:52 2868 Audio track found: 01: English, AC3, 192k/2.0/DS
10:26:52 2868 ================================================== =====================
10:26:52 2868 Loading subtitles
10:26:53 2868 Subtitles loaded
10:26:53 2868 Duration = 7215, maxAutoSubtitles = 602
10:26:53 2868 Loading subtitles
10:26:53 2868 Subtitles loaded
10:26:54 2868 Failed to load logo bitmap
10:26:54 2868 Finished chapters setup;
10:26:55 2868 Exiting _RangeActivate();
10:28:00 2868 Loading subtitles
10:28:00 2868 Subtitles loaded
10:28:28 2868 AutoModePal::Process() : _problem.Worst() = 0, _ThresholdProblem = 25, _lean.Worst() = 0, _ThresholdLean = 35
10:28:28 2868 AutoModePal::Process() : PAL Native progressive mode
10:28:58 2868 ================================================== =====================
10:28:58 2868 AC3 Audio 0 = Stream 0
10:28:58 2868 AC3 Audio 1 = Stream 1
10:28:58 2868 ================================================== =====================
10:28:58 2868 Audio track found: 00: English, AC3, 448k/5.1
10:28:58 2868 Audio track found: 01: English, AC3, 192k/2.0/DS
10:28:58 2868 ================================================== =====================
10:29:41 2868 -----------------------------------------------------------------
10:29:41 2868 Encoding settings :
10:29:41 2868 -----------------------------------------------------------------
10:29:41 2868 _TranscodeProcess() : Encoding part 1 of 1
10:29:41 2868 _TranscodeProcess() : Starting pass 1
10:29:41 2868 Failed to load logo bitmap
10:29:42 2868 ResizePlane::Create() : using Lanczos resizer
10:29:42 2868 ResizePlane::Create() : Resolution : 720x576 (6,72-708,432) to 688x288
10:29:42 2868 ResizePlane::Create() : using Lanczos resizer
10:29:42 2868 ResizePlane::Create() : Resolution : 360x288 (3,36-354,216) to 344x144
10:29:42 2868 ResizePlane::Create() : using Lanczos resizer
10:29:42 2868 ResizePlane::Create() : Resolution : 360x288 (3,36-354,216) to 344x144
10:29:42 3300 Total frames = 180397, Total duration = 7215.880000, Framerate = 25.000
10:29:43 3300 Frames = 180398, Duration = 7215.920000
10:29:43 3300 Desired size = 2240
10:29:43 3300 Bitrate = 2463, Size = 2224580961
10:29:43 3300 DivXCodec::Create() : Succeeded to open internal x264 codec
10:29:43 3300 DivXCompressor::Create() : LoadCodecSettings(id:4) : success
10:29:43 3300 Using x264 codec : 2 pass, pass 1, speed 5
10:29:43 3300 Opening the codec driver
10:29:44 3300 Opening the codec driver OK
10:29:44 3300 Initializing the compression
10:29:45 3300 Initializing the compression OK

[poisondeathray]

Nope, I should have clarified - I'm looking for the x264 settings used.

Another way to get this is to use mediainfo (view=>text) on the output file

It also looks like FairUse resize the output ? It would be better not to resize if you had that option

I gather the source a PAL DVD? Was it interlaced? Which deinterlacer was used? The problem with using automated software (instead of dictating the process yourself), is that they often make poor decisions and make mistakes.

It might help to post a small sample of the source, and of the output to see where the problems were introduced.

The benefit of staying with MPEG2 instead of h.264 is that you can leave it interlaced (no additional quality loss from deinterlacing - you need a high quality deinterlacer in order to reduce the artifacts for progressive material), and it is much faster to process. The tradeoff, of course, is a larger size is required to keep the same quality.

[Z.Sath]

sorry - forgot to say:

Ran it through Fairuse and it's auto-check suggested Native (progressive), and it doesn't look like an interlace issue.

Not sure what you mean by "psy rdo and psy trellis" (bit of a novice with this stuff), as for ringing (like oversharpening) I'm not sure - If I can get a screen grab tonight I will

What settings are you using for the encoding? Post the logfile of one of your encodes, if you don't know.

There should be no pixellation at all (by "pixellation" I mean "square blockiness"), you have to purposefully turn deblocking off for this to occur either in the encoder or decoder settings (it's on by default); pehaps you changed some settings in the playback software?

Jaggies might occur if you are using high psy settings (psy rdo and psy trellis) - are the jaggies similar to ringing (like oversharpening) ? , or are they like deinterlacing artifacts? - another possibility is that you didn't IVTC or deinterlace properly

A properly done 2GB x264 DVD rip should look similar to a 4GB DVDShrink DVD rip ; if anything, I would say the DVDShrink rip is more prone to pixellation because of the lack of deblocking

[poisondeathray]

Basically, psy-rdo and psy-trellis are some options within x264 that add detail. The problem is they can cause too much detail and actually cause ringing if the strength is adjusted too high. psy-rdo is 1.0 by default, and psy trellis is zero on most recent x264 builds, and if you didn't adjust the defaults, this is probably what the setting was. To confirm, you can post the text from mediainfo

[txporter]

I have been doing some x264 converts with Handbrake and noticed with its Constant Rate profile (or something like that) it is using deblocking of -2,-1. Most times, I have seen recommendations to use 0,0. At any rate, I tried encoding with both -2,-1 and 0,0 and the image with -2,-1 deblock was WAY too sharp. The intro to Empires Strikes Back in the lettering where it says LucasArts looked broken up (i.e. the letters were not continuous). Maybe that is what the OP is seeing?

Jason

[jagabo]

10:29:42 2868 ResizePlane::Create() : using Lanczos resizer
10:29:42 2868 ResizePlane::Create() : Resolution : 720x576 (6,72-708,432) to 688x288

There is your problem.

[lordsmurf]

I do custom filtering in VirtualDub (amongst others), audio too if needed, and then encode out of Premiere Pro CS3 or CS4. Quality on my streams is actually better quality than the source DVD, in many cases.

I'm almost of the opinion that the software that encodes H.264 is pretty lousy at decoding MPEG-2. That accounts for the uncompressed AVI middle-step I take. There is negligible quality loss from this, especially considering the filter work I did to vastly improve from source.

Broadly speaking, H.264 is still new. A lot of the software out there is still very much beta-class in how it functions, especially the open-source stuff. The best freeware tool I've used so far is Super, but I'm still not a big fan of it, I prefer Premiere.

These things take forever to encode, even on dual-cores. Even MPEG-2 never took this long, back in 2001.

All this said, my work is for streaming application, over the web. I don't see the point in compressing it down a mere 50% if it's just staying on-site anyway. Keep it on disc, keep it MPEG-2. Do something else with your time.

[Z.Sath]

10:29:42 2868 ResizePlane::Create() : using Lanczos resizer
10:29:42 2868 ResizePlane::Create() : Resolution : 720x576 (6,72-708,432) to 688x288

There is your problem.

That's what I thought, but I have played with this before. Prior to this I whacked up the res beyond this, but the result looked pretty much the same.

I have a feeling txporter and pdr might have hit the nail on the head with the issue of too much detail - the X264 rip seems more vivid, and may just be highlighting the flaws in the original DVD. There is def the illusion with the x264 DVD rip that you are watching the thing through a very fine mesh, I had a very close look at the DVDShrink rip and paused the 2 rips look very similar, on playback however the MPEG-2 rip just seems softer.

I will play some more with both the de-blocking and psy settings + I will also def. check out SUPER, I def. have something to work with now, but will be back with pics if these fall flat

MAJOR thanks to all.

Paul

[jagabo]

Try it with no resizing and no cropping. That will allow the h.264 encoder to deblock properly and will avoid the sharpening (artifact enhancing) Lanczos3 resize. And don't use any sharpening filters.

It would probably be helpful if you uploaded a sample of your source and the results after encoding. One reason I suggest this is because I have seen some combination of graphics cards and media players that have done a poor job of scaling. KMPlayer used to have a problem where it would create an 8x8 grid over the image (probably something to do with DCT deblocking).

[Z.Sath]

Will def try without cropping and see what occurs.



As for the text data from Mediainfo of a CQ18 Handbrake rip:

General
Complete name : C:\Movies\MI3_CQ18.mp4
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media / Version 2
Codec ID : mp42
File size : 1.89 GiB
Duration : 2h 0mn
Overall bit rate : 2 250 Kbps
Encoded date : UTC 2009-02-25 17:46:15
Tagged date : UTC 2009-02-25 22:12:36
Writing application : HandBrake 0.9.3 2008112300

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L3.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 3 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 2h 0mn
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 1 800 Kbps
Width : 718 pixels
Height : 436 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 2.35
Frame rate mode : Variable
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Minimum frame rate : 12.500 fps
Maximum frame rate : 25.000 fps
Resolution : 24 bits
Colorimetry : 4:2:0
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.230
Stream size : 1.51 GiB (80%)
Writing library : x264 core 65
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=3 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x133 / me=umh / subme=9 / psy_rd=1.0:1.0 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / chroma_qp_offset=-4 / threads=3 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / mbaff=0 / bframes=6 / b_pyramid=1 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=3 / wpredb=1 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40(pre) / rc=2pass / bitrate=1800 / ratetol=1.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=10 / qpmax=51 / qpstep=4 / cplxblur=20.0 / qblur=0.5 / ip_ratio=1.40 / pb_ratio=1.30 / aq=1:1.00
Encoded date : UTC 2009-02-25 17:46:15
Tagged date : UTC 2009-02-25 22:12:36

Audio
ID : 2
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Codec ID : ac-3
Duration : 2h 0mn
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 448 Kbps
Channel(s) : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Surround: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Resolution : 16 bits
Stream size : 385 MiB (20%)
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2009-02-25 17:46:15
Tagged date : UTC 2009-02-25 22:12:31

Text
ID : 3
Format : Apple text
Codec ID : text
Duration : 2h 0mn
Bit rate mode : Variable
Stream size : 447 Bytes (0%)
Encoded date : UTC 2009-02-25 17:46:15
Tagged date : UTC 2009-02-25 22:12:36

[poisondeathray]

psy_rd=1.0:1.0

This will cause ringing. You are using an older x264 version which used to have 1.0:1.0 as default, the default "safe" values are 1.0:0 now, which will still cause a bit of ringing. The deblock is enabled and the alpha/beta is 0:0 which is fine.

The biggest issue is the resizing as jagabo pointed out

Handbreak for some reason often uses vfr encodes as well, so if you get sync issues you know why.

Don't use super. It is horrible, and should only be used as a last ditch effort if nothing else works.

[thymej]

Try MeGUI with one of the DXVA SD profiles (Balanced, Fast or HQ). Dont forget to click the config button next to the profile selection and change to the mode you want to use (CQ, or auto2pass, etc). If you choose to try auto2pass don't forget to set your bit rate to 2000K plus since that is what your last encode worked out to be.

You will most likely have to feed the video into MeGUI with an avisynth script.

Good luck

[Z.Sath]

Thanks again guys, just one question:-

How do I update the new version of X264 - Only Ripbot seems to have this in it's directory.

I've had a search around and can't find a copy of x264 anywhere in plain-sight of the fairuse or handbrake.....

I can see ff_x264.dll in both the System32 and ffdshow folders, but that's - is it using the H.264 codex in ffdshow (currently libvacodec)?

Cheers

Paul.

[jagabo]

How do I update the new version of X264 - Only Ripbot seems to have this in it's directory.

Just download the latest exe and put it in that folder. I would rename the old version in case the new one isn't compatible with Ripbot.

I've had a search around and can't find a copy of x264 anywhere in plain-sight of the fairuse or handbrake.....

I can see ff_x264.dll in both the System32 and ffdshow folders, but that's - is it using the H.264 codex in ffdshow (currently libvacodec)?

That sounds right.

[thymej]

Some of the latest Windows EXEs for x264.exe can be found here: http://x264.nl/