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  1. Member AlanHK's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by carlmart
    Originally Posted by guns1inger
    You open the video and the audio as speparate streams in Media Player Classic. You use the numpad + and - keys to adjust the delay until you find out what solves the problem, then you adjust the audio delay in DLP to create a new audio stream that lines up
    Thanks. That's a very nice suggestion that I will apply in the future, even if now I will have to do it differently.

    In this case the delay is not fixed: things look fine at the beginning and get worst by the end of the movie. What I may try is use your suggestion to see what's the total shift and stretch things more accurately.
    You can use that method to map the drift.

    If you find you have 0 at the beginning, 4 secs at the middle, 8 secs at the end, then stretching the sound by a 8 secs should resync it.

    You don't stretch for a constant delay, you can add (or subtract) a delay with DelayCut. And almost all authoring apps allow you to specify a fixed delay when muxing.

    Originally Posted by carlmart
    My idea is, on this case, to use Soundforge to do it if it's possible. As I already use it to correct volume levels and adding some fades in non-5.1 files, I could time-stretch it there. Has anyone done that?

    In this way things should be less lossy, I think.
    Actually, Audioscale is lossless for AC3 corrections.
    Using a general sound editor like Soundforge will entail two conversions, (when it opens and when it saves) so it will degrade quality. Probably barely noticeable though. But if you go back to a source file, then it would be no extra loss.
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    Originally Posted by guns1inger
    You open the video and the audio as speparate streams in Media Player Classic. You use the numpad + and - keys to adjust the delay until you find out what solves the problem, then you adjust the audio delay in DLP to create a new audio stream that lines up
    OK. Let's start again. I downloaded MPC and it runs fine the loaded files.

    But where is that numbpad to adjust the delay with? I must be missing it. Sorry.

    It would be great to have some kind of timeline to see that, but I don't know any besides Avid and others. And they do not accept these files.
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  3. In this case the delay is not fixed: things look fine at the beginning and get worst by the end of the movie. What I may try is use your suggestion to see what's the total shift and stretch things more accurately.
    You don't need to find the offset using mpc, because it is already lined up. But for learning purposes, gunslinger was referring to the "+" and "-" keys on the keyboard. You shift the audio left or right and determine the ms delay value.

    Open the .m2v and .ac3 in mediainfo. It will give you a duration. That fraction is the amount you stretch/shrink the audio

    e.g.
    video 100sec
    audio 99sec

    You would have to stretch the audio by 100/99. Already mentioned, you can do this in most audio editors. This method will only give accurate values if your streams have no errors. If the header information is damaged, or there are gaps/dropouts/discontinunities, the reported duration might be off.
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  4. Member AlanHK's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by carlmart
    But where is that numbpad to adjust the delay with? I must be missing it. Sorry.
    The + and - keys on the numberpad, on the right edge of the keyboard (unless you're using a laptop).

    It shows the numeric delay below the screen when you change it.
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    Originally Posted by poisondeathray
    You don't need to find the offset using mpc, because it is already lined up. But for learning purposes, gunslinger was referring to the "+" and "-" keys on the keyboard. You shift the audio left or right and determine the ms delay value.
    Now I am curious. How do you do that? I tried those keys now and nothing happens on MPC.

    Open the .m2v and .ac3 in mediainfo. It will give you a duration. That fraction is the amount you stretch/shrink the audio

    e.g.
    video 100sec
    audio 99sec

    You would have to stretch the audio by 100/99. Already mentioned, you can do this in most audio editors. This method will only give accurate values if your streams have no errors.
    Mediainfo shows exactly the same timing for both 1h45min. No seconds or nothing.

    If the header information is damaged, or there are gaps/dropouts/discontinunities, the reported duration might be off.
    Is there a way to find that out?
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  6. Try using another media player, eg. smplayer that will also give the the audio delay using the "+" or "-" keys - but again this won't help you in this case, because the audio & video are in sync at the beginning

    Approximately how far off is it by the end? 1sec? 5sec?

    If you play just the .m2v (in a separate folder from the audio) in a media player, what is the reported duration?

    If you do the same with the .ac3 (separate folder from video) in a media player, what is the duration?

    If your stream is damaged, you might see a gap during playback, pixellation, or crackles in the audio. Sometimes the error point is where the desychronization occurs (that would explaing it playing fine in the beginning, but not at the end) . The fix might be to cut out the offending section.

    There is no sure fire way to identify or fix it. You can try running it as an .mpeg (multiplexed) thru videoredo using the quickstream fix

    Examine both the source closely and the output .m2v and .ac3 to see what is different? Did the problem occur in the source file? or during encoding of the audio or video? Trace your steps backwards to see where the error might have occurred
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  7. Member AlanHK's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by carlmart
    Originally Posted by poisondeathray
    You don't need to find the offset using mpc, because it is already lined up. But for learning purposes, gunslinger was referring to the "+" and "-" keys on the keyboard. You shift the audio left or right and determine the ms delay value.
    Now I am curious. How do you do that? I tried those keys now and nothing happens on MPC.
    The + and - on the NUMBERPAD (for the third time).
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    Originally Posted by AlanHK
    The + and - on the NUMBERPAD (for the third time).
    Sorry, I do not wish like an incompetent, which I certainly am quite a lot in these conversions yet.

    Of course I tried the numberpad on the right, on my desktop. The only results I get are with the "numlock" button on, when I get a zoom in by pressing the +key.
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  9. Always Watching guns1inger's Avatar
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    Even with the numlock activated on my keyboard, I get audio delay with the + and - keys on the number keypad. So either you have a screwy keyboard, or your still haven't hit the right keys.
    Read my blog here.
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    Originally Posted by poisondeathray
    Approximately how far off is it by the end? 1sec? 5sec?
    Looks to be about a second.

    If you play just the .m2v (in a separate folder from the audio) in a media player, what is the reported duration?
    Same time for both files.

    If you do the same with the .ac3 (separate folder from video) in a media player, what is the duration?
    Same.

    If your stream is damaged, you might see a gap during playback, pixellation, or crackles in the audio. Sometimes the error point is where the desychronization occurs (that would explaing it playing fine in the beginning, but not at the end) . The fix might be to cut out the offending section.
    Of course that would be out of the question.

    One thing I am considering, though I don't know if it would work, is to capture the DVD from an external player, and then use the audio.

    There is no sure fire way to identify or fix it. You can try running it as an .mpeg (multiplexed) thru videoredo using the quickstream fix
    You mean not demuxed?


    Examine both the source closely and the output .m2v and .ac3 to see what is different? Did the problem occur in the source file? or during encoding of the audio or video? Trace your steps backwards to see where the error might have occurred
    I already tried demuxing with different programs (PgcDemux, DVD Decrypter, Smartripper), so I don't think the problem is in the demuxing. But every time I have to process the file with DGPulldown, or the sync is much worst.
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  11. Always Watching guns1inger's Avatar
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    DGPulldown should have no effect on audio sync or file length/running time (which would also affect sync). All DGPulldown does in insert flags into the file that tell the playback device to add in extra frames on the fly without changing the length.
    Read my blog here.
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  12. Originally Posted by guns1inger
    DGPulldown should have no effect on audio sync or file length/running time (which would also affect sync). All DGPulldown does in insert flags into the file that tell the playback device to add in extra frames on the fly without changing the length.
    It depends. If, for example, he encodes it as 29.97fps and later applies a standard 3:2 pulldown to it, the effect will be to increase the length by 25% (29.97/23.976=1.25). So, if he applies a pulldown for a different framerate than the one at which it was encoded, the length will change.

    This progressive asynch with it being OK at the beginning and off a second by the end (is that about right?) is a strange one, though. It could point to a 23.976fps vs a 24fps kind of thing. But never having used AvsToDVD, I wouldn't know if that's even possible when using it.

    carlmart, when using MPC or MPC HC, right-click the screen and go Options->Audio Switcher and check to make sure the "Enable Built In Audio Switcher" box is checked. Also, go into View (at the top) and make sure that "Status" is checked. If you're unable to adjust the delay on the fly, almost certainly it's because of one of those 2 things.
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    Originally Posted by guns1inger
    Even with the numlock activated on my keyboard, I get audio delay with the + and - keys on the number keypad. So either you have a screwy keyboard, or your still haven't hit the right keys.
    No, the keyboard was not screwed. My head was: I was pressing the 9 and 6 keys. Sorry. This time it did work.

    There seems to be a -650ms audio delay.

    But I don't seem to get it right when I go through Audioscale. I must be doing something wrong with it. I tried both adding and deducting .65 from the big total (6321.5 seconds) and every time the sound gets ahead quite a lot.
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  14. There seems to be a -650ms audio delay.
    If it's a constant delay (is it?), just remove it using DelayCut (on the AC3 audio) and remux.
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    Originally Posted by guns1inger
    DGPulldown should have no effect on audio sync or file length/running time (which would also affect sync). All DGPulldown does in insert flags into the file that tell the playback device to add in extra frames on the fly without changing the length.
    If I don't put my file through DGPulldown and try that uncorrected file through MPC, I get such an off-sync audio that I don't know where it is.
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    Originally Posted by manono
    There seems to be a -650ms audio delay.
    If it's a constant delay (is it?), just remove it using DelayCut (on the AC3 audio) and remux.
    I think I am getting too dumb. What should I check and write on Delaycut after loading the ac3 file?

    There's a "Cutting" and "Delay" boxes to check and "Start/End" windows to fill in. My audio seems to be behind by 650ms. What should I write down where?
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    Originally Posted by manono
    Originally Posted by guns1inger
    DGPulldown should have no effect on audio sync or file length/running time (which would also affect sync). All DGPulldown does in insert flags into the file that tell the playback device to add in extra frames on the fly without changing the length.
    It depends. If, for example, he encodes it as 29.97fps and later applies a standard 3:2 pulldown to it, the effect will be to increase the length by 25% (29.97/23.976=1.25). So, if he applies a pulldown for a different framerate than the one at which it was encoded, the length will change.

    This progressive asynch with it being OK at the beginning and off a second by the end (is that about right?) is a strange one, though. It could point to a 23.976fps vs a 24fps kind of thing. But never having used AvsToDVD, I wouldn't know if that's even possible when using it.
    Without the DGPulldown correction, if I load the file in MPC reads a 1.50.42 time. The corrected file reads 1.45.21.

    This process has nothing to do with AVStoDVD, as it didn't go through it yet.

    carlmart, when using MPC or MPC HC, right-click the screen and go Options->Audio Switcher and check to make sure the "Enable Built In Audio Switcher" box is checked. Also, go into View (at the top) and make sure that "Status" is checked. If you're unable to adjust the delay on the fly, almost certainly it's because of one of those 2 things.
    As I said above, it was a misunderstanding of mine. Now I can read the delay alright. But if I correct it with Audioscale the first 4/5 of the movie go off. Now I am trying to apply a fixed correction to see if it works, but I am having some problems loading the data in Delaycut.
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  18. ...but I am having some problems loading the data in Delaycut.
    You open an AC3 audio track, set the delay in the Delay section->Start, and Process. That's all. Don't write anything anywhere else or check any other boxes. You said the audio is behind by 650ms. Meaning it plays after the video? The dialog comes after the lips move? Then you fill in a -650 in the Start box.
    Without the DGPulldown correction, if I load the file in MPC reads a 1.50.42 time. The corrected file reads 1.45.21.
    As gunsl1inger said, DGPulldown applied correctly doesn't change the video length by so much as a millisecond. I can only conclude that either you're doing it wrong or whatever you're using to tell the length afterwards is wrong. More likely the reported length is wrong as many players and programs can't give the correct length of an M2V.
    This process has nothing to do with AVStoDVD, as it didn't go through it yet.
    Then why are you doing anything at all with the M2V demuxed with PGCDemux?
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  19. Member AlanHK's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by carlmart
    Originally Posted by AlanHK
    The + and - on the NUMBERPAD (for the third time).
    Sorry, I do not wish like an incompetent, which I certainly am quite a lot in these conversions yet.

    Of course I tried the numberpad on the right, on my desktop. The only results I get are with the "numlock" button on, when I get a zoom in by pressing the +key.
    Sorry to be short tempered.
    If you really are running Win98 as in your profile, that may be the problem.
    The key shortcuts can be seen and changed at View/Options/Keys

    Otherwise you can get the delay via the menus: Play/Audio/Options.
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    Originally Posted by AlanHK
    Sorry to be short tempered.
    Don't worry. I was afraid you would give up on me.

    If you really are running Win98 as in your profile, that may be the problem.
    The key shortcuts can be seen and changed at View/Options/Keys
    Sorry about that. I updated my profile. Of course you can't do all the video things I do Win98. I run WinXP and not too much willing to go to Vista yet.

    Otherwise you can get the delay via the menus: Play/Audio/Options.
    It's very strange how these files behave within MPC. After many, a lot, of comings and goings I could verify that the best way to improve things is by stretching, as the out of sync is gradual. If I set a fixed delay, the first 2/3 or more of the film syncs out. But only now did I perceive that to watch things in MPC and not let things look bad I had to go to the beginning and then look for different sync points.

    I will now make a test with DVD conversion to see how things work out.
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    [quote="manono"]
    ...but I am having some problems loading the data in Delaycut.
    You open an AC3 audio track, set the delay in the Delay section->Start, and Process. That's all. Don't write anything anywhere else or check any other boxes. You said the audio is behind by 650ms. Meaning it plays after the video? The dialog comes after the lips move? Then you fill in a -650 in the Start box.
    Without the DGPulldown correction, if I load the file in MPC reads a 1.50.42 time. The corrected file reads 1.45.21.
    Thanks. I tried it with two different delays, and in the end, as had been my first guess, the annswer was stretching and not a fixed delay.


    As gunsl1inger said, DGPulldown applied correctly doesn't change the video length by so much as a millisecond. I can only conclude that either you're doing it wrong or whatever you're using to tell the length afterwards is wrong. More likely the reported length is wrong as many players and programs can't give the correct length of an M2V.
    Probably so. But I can list the several programs I used and all showed the same.

    I wish I would be doing things wrong, because that would mean there is a solution. But there's not much to go wrong on this: demux, apply DGPulldown, convert with AVStoDVD, author with DLP, burn the DVD.


    Then why are you doing anything at all with the M2V demuxed with PGCDemux?
    Because I am re-authoring the DVD. In this case to convert the letterbox 4:3 onto 16:9 using AVStoDVD. I had done all that when I found this sync problem.
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    Results on the DVD were quite good. Sync is 98% to 99% accurate, but to go the final mile would be very labor intensive and at least this video has taken a lot of my time and yours too.

    It would be great to be able to put video and audio on a timeline and move it until perfect sync. But the programs I am used to, like Avid, are hard to work with and files are quite large, as they take only avi.

    A friend mentioned Vegas, but I have no experience with it.

    So at least for this film consider it done. Now I will put it through AVStoDVD to go from letterbox 4:3 to 16:9 and author it.
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    Now a different problem, also related to how to improve things on another DVD I have which is also letterbox 4:3.

    This has no sync problem, as has been the case with the other one. But what it has are some comb effect artifacts that I would like to correct.

    What do you advise on using to correct or improve on that that AVStoDVD will incorporate when I do the letterbox 4:3 to 16:9 blow-up?
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  24. Here we go again.

    Post a small 10 second sample of the source showing the problem - a sample with movement. Open a VOB in DGIndex. Use the [ and ] buttons to isolate a small section. Then File->Save Project and Demux Video. Upload the resulting M2V to a 3rd party file hosting site - one such as MediaFire - and post the link here.
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    If you are converting 4:3 letterbox material to 16:9, in most cases it can be done simply with DVD Rebuilder. It has an option to do exactly this type of conversion. I have used it many times and it has always worked well. It also has the advantage of keeping all the menus and disc structure intact, and only adjusting the video.

    That said, I have only ever used it on material that was 1.778 : 1 or wider, and not tried it with 1.66 : 1 material, so I don't know how it will fair in that case.
    Read my blog here.
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  26. Originally Posted by guns1inger
    That said, I have only ever used it on material that was 1.778 : 1 or wider, and not tried it with 1.66 : 1 material, so I don't know how it will fair in that case.
    It does the standard 4:3 to 16:9 conversion by cropping 60 rows of pixels from both the top and bottom, turning a 1.66:1 movie into a 1.78:1 movie, since it crops a little into the active video from both the top and bottom. To do it properly using DVD-Rebuilder you have to mess around inside the Filter Editor.

    And carlmart mentioned interlacing. Maybe it needs an IVTC (which DVD-Rebuilder is incapable of performing) or maybe it needs to be unblended (also undoable using DVD-Rebuilder). Or maybe it's a true interlaced source. That's why I asked for a sample.
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    Originally Posted by guns1inger
    If you are converting 4:3 letterbox material to 16:9, in most cases it can be done simply with DVD Rebuilder. It has an option to do exactly this type of conversion. I have used it many times and it has always worked well. It also has the advantage of keeping all the menus and disc structure intact, and only adjusting the video.

    That said, I have only ever used it on material that was 1.778 : 1 or wider, and not tried it with 1.66 : 1 material, so I don't know how it will fair in that case.
    This thread begun because of my interest for the better program, the most transparent, to convert avi files onto mpeg2.

    The program I had been using until now for that was Procoder, but when I saw the results I could get with VirtualDub, which uses Avisynth, I guessed there might better options. AVStoDVD certainly was.

    I will have a look at DVDRebuilder, even if I don't care at all for the menus and disc structure. Particularly because I am changing the subtitles in many aspects: changing words, realigning lines, etc. Things that I can't do with DVD Sub Edit, for instance.

    Even if hopefully there won't be too many films to blow up to 16:9, the flexibility of using HCEnc through AVStoDVD was quite an advance in the right direction. That's why I am now getting bold, looking for other improvements I could add on.
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    Originally Posted by manono
    Here we go again.

    Post a small 10 second sample of the source showing the problem - a sample with movement. Open a VOB in DGIndex. Use the [ and ] buttons to isolate a small section. Then File->Save Project and Demux Video. Upload the resulting M2V to a 3rd party file hosting site - one such as MediaFire - and post the link here.
    OK. Sample is here:

    http://www.easy-share.com/1903693582/test1.demuxed.m2v

    The effect is mostly seen in movements, and if you pause the movement you will see a "shadow" of moving objects in horizontal lines.

    Of course all this becomes worst if I wish to blow this up to 16:9 as I want to.
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  29. It's field-blended garbage. The best way to handle it is:

    Yadif(Mode=1,Order=1)#or your favorite bobber
    RePAL()

    And if you want to convert to 16:9:

    Crop(0,58,0,-62)
    Lanczos4Resize(Width,480)

    You can get both Yadif and RePAL here:

    http://avisynth.org/warpenterprises/

    I don't know how you'd do this using Avs2DVD but, in my opinion, if you're going to be working regularly with stuff like this, you had better learn both AviSynth and encoding manually. Here's your sample unblended and encoded for 16:9, with DGPulldown applied afterwards for 24.975->29.97fps, ready to author (4.07MB):

    http://www.mediafire.com/?2mzhvyjwt0n
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    Originally Posted by manono
    It's field-blended garbage. The best way to handle it is:

    Yadif(Mode=1,Order=1)#or your favorite bobber
    RePAL()
    What's rePAL for?


    And if you want to convert to 16:9:

    Crop(0,58,0,-62)
    Lanczos4Resize(Width,480)
    This I already get in AVStoDVD


    You can get both Yadif and RePAL here:

    http://avisynth.org/warpenterprises/

    I don't know how you'd do this using Avs2DVD
    You can add an avisynth script on it. What I don't know is the order for them.


    but, in my opinion, if you're going to be working regularly with stuff like this, you had better learn both AviSynth and encoding manually.
    That's true. I will try to learn it.

    Here's your sample unblended and encoded for 16:9, with DGPulldown applied afterwards for 24.975->29.97fps, ready to author (4.07MB):

    http://www.mediafire.com/?2mzhvyjwt0n
    Thanks. It looks very good.
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