Best way to convert MKV files to MPEG2

[carlmart]

When I say best way I mean quality wise, and by quality I mean both image quality and fluidity quality. What I need is a demuxed file (m2p) that I can feed into DVDLab Pro to author a DVD.

This distinction in quality is because I did try a program called Super that got me great quality image, but the movement is jumpy. It also superimposed the subtitles, but that should be a minor item. The output file was not accepted by DLP either.

Also tried Procoder 3 and it did get me a fluid movement, but image quality is not as good as on Super, both in resolution and contrast. In this case I did use the H264 file I demuxed from the MKV using MKVextractGUI.

[Baldrick]

what bitrate settings did you use in procoder? increase the bitrate for better quality or use constant quality encoding settings.

Or try hcenc.

[carlmart]

what bitrate settings did you use in procoder?

I used 4800. BitrateCalc is a very useful way to get that info. Allows you to use up the maximum bitrate you can get to fit a DVD.

increase the bitrate for better quality or use constant quality encoding settings.

If I go higher I will not be able to fit the DVD. For a file this long 4800 should be enough.

Please forgive my ignorance, what are those constant quality encoding settings you mentioned? If you mean those in Quality/Speed, I always use High Quality.

Or try hcenc.

If you have to load scripts, I can't use it. I don't know how to.

In fact I would love to do this conversion using VirtualDub, which is very transparent, but it doesn't accept MKV or h264 files.

[guns1inger]

4800 is pretty low for full-D1 video. Coming from compressed source, you will have to expect average quality.

If you want to give HCEnc a swing without learning basic avisynth, try AVStoDVD. It even has an option to output elementary streams which you can then use in DLP.

[carlmart]

4800 is pretty low for full-D1 video. Coming from compressed source, you will have to expect average quality.

OK. What I just did is use Mediainfo to get the data from the original file:

6.56Gb, 2.06hs
6491kbps
1280:688
23.976fps
AVC videostream

The original quality and the one I got from SUPER, which was jumpy, was quite good. What I thought is that, being a newer film to video capture, that quality came from recent video improvements and that I could preserve it. So the jumpy movement in the conversion was a let down to that.

If you want to give HCEnc a swing without learning basic avisynth,

I installed it this morning, but it doesn't seem to work at all. Maybe I should copy it again, or use an older version.

try AVStoDVD. It even has an option to output elementary streams which you can then use in DLP.

Thanks, will give it a try.

[jman98]

HCEnc can be tricky for newbies. I use AviSynth with it. For some weird reason HCEnc can't always open my source files, so I've found in those cases that if first I open the *.avs file that I created with Media Player Classic, then HCEnc works OK. This is fairly random and I don't always have to do it. I have no idea why it's sometimes necessary and other times not. An older version won't fix your problem with HCEnc, but AVStoDVD might. Or you can try my method if you want to use AviSynth.

Note that your source file is high definition and you are having to downsize the resolution from 1280x688 to DVD resolution. It's possible that Super is not doing the resizing properly and this can cause what you see.

[carlmart]

HCEnc can be tricky for newbies. I use AviSynth with it. For some weird reason HCEnc can't always open my source files, so I've found in those cases that if first I open the *.avs file that I created with Media Player Classic, then HCEnc works OK. This is fairly random and I don't always have to do it. I have no idea why it's sometimes necessary and other times not. An older version won't fix your problem with HCEnc, but AVStoDVD might. Or you can try my method if you want to use AviSynth.

I am using AVStoDVD, which handles HCEnc to do the process. But it really is taking its time to do it: Pass 1 was 3 hours and Pass 2 is gonna take 5 more! So 8 hours of processing better get me a very high quality image, and or it's not worth it. And mine is a Core2 machine.

Note that your source file is high definition and you are having to downsize the resolution from 1280x688 to DVD resolution. It's possible that Super is not doing the resizing properly and this can cause what you see.

Well, I have to downsize it to 720 x 480. Just now did I realize that to get to such a value in SUPER's Video Scale Size I have to tick "More". I had ticked "Nochange", so maybe it got me into trouble. Perhaps it's worth trying.

Next question is how I order it not to burn in any subtitles...

[guns1inger]

You are converting mid-range HD (720p-ish) to DVD - expect a drop in quality. There is not way around it if you want to go from HD to DVD.

[Supreme2k]

You are converting mid-range HD (720p-ish) to DVD - expect a drop in quality.

On the other hand, while it may not match HD, your DVD may end up looking better than some of the commercial DVDs produced. I have a few BRs of some of my crappier quality DVDs (V for vendetta, for example), and the difference in quality is amazing. Granted, some of them look like they've been converted to Divx then back to DVD (originals), but the BR to DVD still look like what the original DVD should have been in the first place.

[poisondeathray]

You are converting mid-range HD (720p-ish) to DVD - expect a drop in quality.

On the other hand, while it may not match HD, your DVD may end up looking better than some of the commercial DVDs produced. I have a few BRs of some of my crappier quality DVDs (V for vendetta, for example), and the difference in quality is amazing. Granted, some of them look like they've been converted to Divx then back to DVD (originals), but the BR to DVD still look like what the original DVD should have been in the first place.

What you say happens often regarding poor quality commerical DVD's, but it is not the case here.

The OP is starting with a .mkv with 1280x688 resolution. This tells me this is not a BD, rather a 2nd generation rip.

[carlmart]

OK. Conversion is done using AVStoDVD.

Results were quite good. A bit better than Procoder, even if not as good as the original MKV. But I might live with it.

Strangely enough, what did not decode properly was the AC3 track: it started and then was cut-off. In any case I tried the original demuxed track from the MKV and it syncs beautifully.

Only complaint from AVStoDVD is the long time it took to convert it.

Now I would like to try SUPER again, to see if I can improve on the resolution and get results much closer to the original. My only concern is how to avoid the subtitle burn-in. Does anyone know how to do it?

[guns1inger]

You can't improve the resolution if you want DVD - you are restricted to 720 X 480 (NTSC) or 720 X 576 (PAL) at best. Combine this with a low bitrate (4800 kbps) and you will not get anything like oyur original pseudo-720p source.

As for subs - demux from the mkv with mkvextractGUI, then use a proper authoring tool to create the final disc. This will give you subs you can turn on and off with the remote. Even AVStoDVD should be able to do this. FAVC can. SUPER is not an authoring tool. It is only an encoder, hence the hard subs it produces.

[carlmart]

You can't improve the resolution if you want DVD - you are restricted to 720 X 480 (NTSC) or 720 X 576 (PAL) at best. Combine this with a low bitrate (4800 kbps) and you will not get anything like oyur original pseudo-720p source.

I am aware of that.

As for subs - demux from the mkv with mkvextractGUI, then use a proper authoring tool to create the final disc. This will give you subs you can turn on and off with the remote.

Which authoring are you talking about? To author what? What can of disk can I author with this file of mine in MKV?

Even AVStoDVD should be able to do this. FAVC can. SUPER is not an authoring tool. It is only an encoder, hence the hard subs it produces.

I understand. Tonight I will do another transcoding with SUPER, this time properly setup, and see what image quality I get.

[guns1inger]

The process of taking the video and audio (and subtitles) and creating a valid DVD video disc structure is called authoring. SUPER has very basic authoring with absolutely no control on your part, hence the hardcoded subtitles. Other tools give you the option to include proper subtitles that can be controlled by the viewer.

If you are using DLP, then check the mkv to see what type of subs it has embedded. If they are srt subs you can extract them and load then directly into DLP and author with subs from there.

SUPER is fine for quick conversions from odd formats, but is it not, for all it's parameters, a very flexible encoder, and it is not a subtle encoder.

[carlmart]

The process of taking the video and audio (and subtitles) and creating a valid DVD video disc structure is called authoring.

I know what authoring is, what I asked is how could I author a disc from an MKV file and keep, as much as possible, its original qualities. Perhaps you meant authoring a BR disc?

SUPER has very basic authoring with absolutely no control on your part, hence the hardcoded subtitles. Other tools give you the option to include proper subtitles that can be controlled by the viewer.

Until now I could only find DLP as the one giving so much control over authoring, allowing several audio and sub tracks. Others, like TMPGEnc DVD Author are much more limited there. There's also ConvertXtoDVD, that I think accepts MKV sources, but I don't know why does not provide such a good image quality as DLP, and has very little flexibility in the interface screens.

If you are using DLP, then check the mkv to see what type of subs it has embedded. If they are srt subs you can extract them and load then directly into DLP and author with subs from there.

MKV files in general carry ASS files, which Subtitle Workshop accepts and allows editing, converting then to srt to use with DLP.

SUPER is fine for quick conversions from odd formats, but is it not, for all it's parameters, a very flexible encoder, and it is not a subtle encoder.

Yes, it seems so. Pity it doesn't accept the h264 file demuxed from the MKV, because that has no subs.

[poisondeathray]

I can tell you from my experiences, HCenc will give you the best MPEG2 quality. It is on par with CCE SP2, usually better IMO, especially at lower bitrates. At 4800kbps video bitrate (lowish for MPEG2 in SD frame size), I strongly recommend using HCenc over anything else.

Super uses FFMPEG as the backend, slightly lower quality.

If you remux the raw h264 file with mkvmerge (mkvtoolnix) without the sub, super should accept it fine. Just checkmark the streams you want to keep, uncheckmark the ones you don't want. (ie. in effect make a new mkv with the same audio & video but without the subs; no re-encoding done at this stage)

It's not a pity at all NOT using super - I can guarantee it will be a waste of time using super if you want decent quality. If you want to go through the testing/learning process , by means go right ahead, I thought I would save you a few hours.

You could use FAVC which uses HCenc as the backend, to avoid using scripts, just save the intermediate files, then you could import the elementary streams into DLP. If you want to tweak the best quality, you might consider learning scripts and some custom settings with HCenc in the future.

[carlmart]

I can tell you from my experiences, HCenc will give you the best MPEG2 quality. It is on par with CCE SP2, usually better IMO, especially at lower bitrates. At 4800kbps video bitrate (lowish for MPEG2 in SD frame size), I strongly recommend using HCenc over anything else.

Thanks for the tip. I will certainly follow that lead.

But AVStoDVD uses HEnc it its processing. Shouldn't the quality be fine then?

Super uses FFMPEG as the backend, slightly lower quality.

None of the two FFMpeg (codecs?) are worth it? There's also MEncoder and Real Producer. They any good?

If you remux the raw h264 file with mkvmerge (mkvtoolnix) without the sub, super should accept it fine. Just checkmark the streams you want to keep, uncheckmark the ones you don't want. (ie. in effect make a new mkv with the same audio & video but without the subs; no re-encoding done at this stage)

As I have to feed the original MKV file to SUPER, it doesn't give me an option to uncheck anything, except for audio. But I will look for a way to eliminate the subs somehow.

It's not a pity at all NOT using super - I can guarantee it will be a waste of time using super if you want decent quality. If you want to go through the testing/learning process , by means go right ahead, I thought I would save you a few hours.

Thanks.

You could use FAVC which uses HCenc as the backend, to avoid using scripts, just save the intermediate files, then you could import the elementary streams into DLP.

Already downloaded and should try it when I finish this writing.

If you want to tweak the best quality, you might consider learning scripts and some custom settings with HCenc in the future.

Wouldn't mind to learn that. How can I do it?

[poisondeathray]

No, don't feed the original .mkv, you have to re-make the .mkv with mkvtoolnix (checkmark the streams you want to keep, uncheckmark the subs in mkvmerge, not super) => this will produce a new .mkv without subs. This new .mkv you then feed into super (but trust me, its a waste of time...both ffmpeg or mencoder produce inferior results across all genres - anime/cgi/western/grainy films/art films/action movies/nature movies.... you name it....I've tested all of them)

Super even produces worse quality than if you used a regular ffmpeg or mencoder GUI (e.g. avanti for ffmpeg or automen for mencoder), simply because it uses 1 pass abr (not 2pass). There is no option to do 2pass. It is the absolute worst choice. For any conversion. Period.

I don't use avstodvd, but if it uses hcenc, it should be the same provided the version and settings were the same

Again, you are limited because of using a 2nd generation rip as a source, and by DVD specs (i.e. SD frame size). If you used DVD9 as target size, you could at least use a higher bitrate...

As for custom settings and filters, you could write books on what to use, for each particular goal....You have to customise for the specific movie. Start with reading some guides and learning about avisynth, and if you have a specific goal in mind, ask....

Just for illustrative purposes comparing low bitrate MPEG2 encoding, here is an example (only 1 frame , you should really look at the entire sequence...but trust me, every frame looks worse with ffmpeg and super). The source was 1080p 24Mbps, resized to SD frame size. Same script, only difference was encoder. Both 3000kbps. Take note especially of the pixellation

SUPER ffmpeg 3000kbps


HCenc 3000kbps AQ4


HCenc 3000kbps AQ0

[carlmart]

Well, going into phase 3 in this adventure.

Today I could try SUPER as it should: without any subs. Your response got late, but I had done what you explained later: demux the MKV file, pick out the subs and load that new file to SUPER. On it I used ffmpeg, and left it decoding all night.

Then I compared several frames to my last conversion, done with AVStoDVD. The results, resolution-wise, are very much the same, with a very slightly better contrast from AVS. So I won't keep the SUPER version.

Yesterday I also downloaded FAVC, but it showed an error when transcoding. Now I tried it again, this time using the demuxed MKV file too, and it seems to work fine. It's transcoding as we speak. As I see it, when I compare it with AVStoDVD's file, it should be the comparison between two programs that use HEnc, so maybe the results are quite similar, shouldn't they?

Maybe I can improve on the settings. You mentioned using DVD9 as target size, though I think you mean using higher bitrates. To set the right bitrate I use BitrateCalc, and for this length it suggests 4.800. So this is the size I am feeding to the HEnc setup. How can I improve on that? I am not doing double-side DVD-Rs. I am looking forward BR-R discs, but they are too expensive for now. What can I do with a higher bitrate output from HEnc?

About your two frame samples, it's interesting that they show more or less the same differences that I perceived on my comparison: mostly contrast and saturation, though in my case they are more visible.

For resolution I always look at trees leaves or grass, or skin and hair in people. In this sense, my original MKV file is certainly better. Wish I could get closer to it.

Please look at the FAVC setup to see what could be improved.

[carlmart]

poisondeathray

Just sent a pm to you.

Thanks,

[poisondeathray]

Are you sure the difference is just contrast/saturation? The differences between a 1pass Super ffmpeg encode, and a 2pass HCenc encode around 4800kbps (even from a 720p source) should be much more than that.

Unfortunately not much you can change for generic settings.

If you use HCenc (the standalone version), you could use a low bitrate matrix, or other custom matrix and might get better results, or adjust the adaptive quantization, or luminance gain depending on what kind of movie it is. I don't think you have access to those options thru FAVC

If there were certain segments that were "bad" in a certain manner, you could apply specific filtering to those segments, but this is getting into filtering techniques.

I think the biggest problems are the low resolution (especially), and relatively low bitrate (for MPEG2), and 2nd generation source

[hank315]

As I see it, when I compare it with AVStoDVD's file, it should be the comparison between two programs that use HEnc, so maybe the results are quite similar, shouldn't they?

Not necessarily, a lot depends on the HCenc settings used by FAVC and AVStoDVD.
The frame posted by poisondeathray is a nice example in which AQ (adaptive quantization) does a good job, bits are transferred from the high texture area (grass, trees) to the flat parts (water) preventing blocks and pixelation.
I don't know if FAVC and AVStoDVD will set this parameter, ATM default in HCenc is no AQ... (this will be changed in the next release).

[poisondeathray]

Nice to see the author chime in

I updated the post above to include AQ0 to compare to AQ4. Even at the "default" AQ0 settings it's clearly much better than the results from Super

carlmart: if you save the 3 images to your desktop, and flip with the windows picture viewer you should see the differences clearly.

The quality difference is more clear if you watch the sequence, here are 2 clips, 1 from SUPER, 1 from HCenc
(<10MB)

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=B9239YK1

[carlmart]

Are you sure the difference is just contrast/saturation? The differences between a 1pass Super ffmpeg encode, and a 2pass HCenc encode around 4800kbps (even from a 720p source) should be much more than that.

Well, to answer better that I would have to burn a DVD of each and look at them on my TV. Right now I am comparing them on my 17" CRT PVC monitor, and not as well as I should, because one is in VLC and the other in WMP.

Unfortunately not much you can change for generic settings.

If you use HCenc (the standalone version), you could use a low bitrate matrix, or other custom matrix and might get better results, or adjust the adaptive quantization, or luminance gain depending on what kind of movie it is. I don't think you have access to those options thru FAVC

How do I load it or make it work? If I execute HEnc I get their screen, but nothing seems to work. It doesn't allow to do anything. I would love to make it work without using another program.

If there were certain segments that were "bad" in a certain manner, you could apply specific filtering to those segments, but this is getting into filtering techniques.

That's very interesting.

I think the biggest problems are the low resolution (especially), and relatively low bitrate (for MPEG2), and 2nd generation source

I would be very happy if I could replicate the quality of that 2nd generation source!

Is there anything else I can do to improve on the low resolution and bitrate of the MPEG2? If I go higher on the bitrate, the burn program will compress it anyway, won't it?

One thing I am already doing is using upscaling in the play, which gets me 720p and a remarkable better image. But if the source is better, in this case the DVD, the upscaling should be better too.

[carlmart]

As I see it, when I compare it with AVStoDVD's file, it should be the comparison between two programs that use HEnc, so maybe the results are quite similar, shouldn't they?

Not necessarily, a lot depends on the HCenc settings used by FAVC and AVStoDVD.

Anything I can do to improve on that?

The frame posted by poisondeathray is a nice example in which AQ (adaptive quantization) does a good job, bits are transferred from the high texture area (grass, trees) to the flat parts (water) preventing blocks and pixelation.
I don't know if FAVC and AVStoDVD will set this parameter, ATM default in HCenc is no AQ... (this will be changed in the next release).

OK. How do I do to use just HCEnc by itself? When I load the exe file I can't seem to do anything else on the HCEnc screen. Perhaps some instructions on how to use HCEnc would be useful.

[carlmart]

The quality difference is more clear if you watch the sequence, here are 2 clips, 1 from SUPER, 1 from HCenc
(<10MB)

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=B9239YK1

The difference is quite great. It looks as if the first is interlaced and the other is progressive.

How did you process the HCenc one?

The difference between mine is certainly not that great, meaning the SUPER one is certainly not bad at all. Only the other one is a bit better.

Now I am using AVStoDVD, which relies in the HCenc, for a third option. Still a long time to go and it's in the pass 1.

[poisondeathray]

The differences are more easily visible because I used a lower bitrate 3000kbps. When you use higher bitrates , differences are less easy to determine. I used the low bitate to clearly demonstrate how much moe efficient HCenc is. But even at 4-5000kbps it still is clearly better than ffmpeg and especially super's ffmpeg (1 pass LOL)

The .avs script was identical, deinterlaced with yadif, lanczos resized, so both are progressive.

This was already mentioned, but HCenc requires avisynth and .avs scripts. Steep learning curve if you don't know how to do this Be prepared to do some reading , testing and figuring stuff out

The GUI's such as FAVC and AVStoDVD were suggested only because they are easy to use and don't require avs scripting on the user's part

Even doing little tweaks and custom settings, don't expect miracles; at best it will be marginally better... for the 3 reasons I listed above.

If you insist on DVD format, the best you can do is increase the bitrate (DVD9 size), and it will still look like crap compared to the 720p or 1080p version. DVD looks like crap in all cases IMO compared to the HD version.

[carlmart]

This was already mentioned, but HCenc requires avisynth and .avs scripts. Steep learning curve if you don't know how to do this Be prepared to do some reading , testing and figuring stuff out

Could give it a try. If not for this maybe for other stuff. I am a director, owning DV and HDV cameras and editing things myself. So it should be time for me to learn something about scripts. Where can I start?

Even doing little tweaks and custom settings, don't expect miracles; at best it will be marginally better... for the 3 reasons I listed above.

OK. Noted.

If you insist on DVD format, the best you can do is increase the bitrate (DVD9 size), and it will still look like crap compared to the 720p or 1080p version. DVD looks like crap in all cases IMO compared to the HD version.

How can I balance increasing the bitrate, which will affect size, with getting a better quality?

My only experience with that is that, when I use CloneDVD2 I can feed files that are larger than 5.1Gb and it will burn an error-free disc. As long as you are within the right 1/3 size on the ruler there shouldn't be any problems. But I do know the program is compressing things, not making miracles.

So I can go higher on the AVS bitrate and see what happens. Perhaps doing tests with small parts and see what I get, get some kind of table to work with.

[poisondeathray]

What I meant is use a DVD9 instead of a DVD5 (physical media), that way you could use a higher bitrate.

There is SO MUCH to learn about avisynth, inputs filters, processing filters, etc... I am just scratching the surface myself, and learn new stuff all the time. I can't emphasize enough that this is time spent well learning avisynth. For the hardcore developers and advanced stuff check out Doom9 forums.

You might start with
http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/Main_Page

And go thru the links.

[carlmart]

Well, once again FAVC failed to complete the transcoding. When I just returned to see how it was going on, there was no HCEnc screen open anymore, the destination files were empty and the temporary files were jumpy.

So I think FAVC is not working for me.

Until I find a way to use HCEnc with scripts, I think I will stick to AVStoDVD, that at least seems to be doing a nice job, better than SUPER.

One thing I might do is refine the AVStoDVD settings, particularly those in "Encoding" and "Audio/Video". Can you check on the options there or should I list them here?