Looks like digital TV switch to be delayed in US

[edDV]

Yes but,

A simple delay helps none of the above. Congress needs to

1. Fix the coupon program. Fund it and allow viewers that let coupons expire reapply. They already have them in the data base.

2. Encourage local efforts to aid the elderly and the tech challenged. I think this is best organized by the local TV stations since they benefit from additional viewers and suffer ratings when viewers decline. They also can promote the program on air. These people need a supply of tuners and antennas that can be authorized on site.

3. Encourage indivuals and high schools to help neighbors and provide 800 number support for quick access to tuners-antennas from retailers like Walmart, K-Mart, Costco, Sams.

Meanwhile, Comcast is offering $10/mo. basic local plans.


PS: I don't give Congress a break here. They dropped the ball on the coupon program and deserve all the blame.

[usually_quiet]

The whole "expiring coupon" concept, and the fact that fancy (costly?) cards were used, was clearly invented by your typical head-up-ass politicians.

I think the cards cost about $2 each to issue, not including the cost of the plastic used for the cards themselves. The cards coulnd't be all that expensive to make. Remember getting dummy credit cards in the mail with unsolicited credit card offers?

[lordsmurf]

Dummy cards don't have magnetic stripes and are usually cardboard (not plastic).

Even at $2 each, how many milllions of dollars were spent on cards? Why could we not just request numbers by phone or mail, seeing how so many people have opted to buy online and not in stores. Indeed, I believe more than half of approved vendors are online-only stores.

My cards are in the file cabinet, for the sake of history. All I needed was the number to make my Meritline.com box purchase.

I'm pretty well fed up by my anti-science, anti-technology government.

[usually_quiet]

Fix the coupon program. Fund it and allow viewers that let coupons expire reapply. They already have them in the data base.

People have been asking for that since summer of 2008. I am not sure if the system was designed in a way to allow IBM to tie the redeemed and expired coupons to a particular household or not. They may have only recorded which households ordered coupons, not the numbers on the cards issued to them, since re-issuing cards was never part of the original plan.

[edDV]

Fix the coupon program. Fund it and allow viewers that let coupons expire reapply. They already have them in the data base.

People have been asking for that since summer of 2008. I am not sure if the system was designed in a way to allow IBM to tie the redeemed and expired coupons to a particular household or not. They may have only recorded which households ordered coupons, not the numbers on the cards issued to them, since re-issuing cards was never part of the original plan.

If not they should have backups. The coupon package I got looked better managed than IRS rebates. They can fix it. I have more confidence in IBM than Ed Markey.

By the way, I ordered my coupons in November and got them in December. This was 3mo. after the Bush admin sounded the alarm. Local retailers (printed on rebate form) told me they slowed ordering tuners after hearing about funding running low. Face it Congress blew this one.

[edDV]

Dummy cards don't have magnetic stripes and are usually cardboard (not plastic).

Even at $2 each, how many milllions of dollars were spent on cards? Why could we not just request numbers by phone or mail, seeing how so many people have opted to buy online and not in stores. Indeed, I believe more than half of approved vendors are online-only stores.

My cards are in the file cabinet, for the sake of history. All I needed was the number to make my Meritline.com box purchase.

I'm pretty well fed up by my anti-science, anti-technology government.

When I bought my Zenith DTT901 at local Radio Shack they didn't want the DTV tuner card initially. The sequence went like this. They were on an internet connect.

1. Refuse the card, then asked to scan the barcode on the attached form.
2. Ask for payment credit card. After scanning, they then entered the 3 digit confirm code on the back (I didn't like this)
3. Print receipt
4. Ask for gov't tuner card.

I felt this was an odd transaction.

[gadgetguy]

When I purchased my boxes at Best Buy they scanned the card and it printed my name on the receipt. I was paying cash so there was no other way in the transaction that it could have gotten that information. The card number and my name are in a database somewhere and I have every reason to believe that Best Buy relayed that information to receive the $40 dollars. They know what cards were issued, who they were issued to, and whether they were redeemed or not. They (government officials) just have their craniums up their posteriors.

[MEL15]

What do they mean, People are not ready. Its been known for 14 years that this change would came...........As usual lets wait for the last minute..no wonder our country its such a mess

[usually_quiet]

When I purchased my boxes at Best Buy they scanned the card and it printed my name on the receipt. I was paying cash so there was no other way in the transaction that it could have gotten that information. The card number and my name are in a database somewhere and I have every reason to believe that Best Buy relayed that information to receive the $40 dollars. They know what cards were issued, who they were issued to, and whether they were redeemed or not.

I ordered online the first time I used a coupon, then over the phone the second time, and used a credit card, so I couldn't tell if my name was tied to the number on the coupon. The name is probably encoded in the magnetic stripe on the back of the card. That is typical for credit cards.

[gadgetguy]

Yes, but my point is that they encoded that information into the card so it could be tracked at every stage. There's no reason that they shouldn't know who didn't use cards that were issued and expired and allow them to apply for replacements.

[usually_quiet]

What do they mean, People are not ready. Its been known for 14 years that this change would came...........As usual lets wait for the last minute..no wonder our country its such a mess

True, but the technology to make it possible for the average person to use a digital OTA signal has only been available to them in a TV for about 18 months, and in converter boxes for about 9-10 months. That is the major reason the switch did not happen in 2006.

[edDV]

What do they mean, People are not ready. Its been known for 14 years that this change would came...........As usual lets wait for the last minute..no wonder our country its such a mess

True, but the technology to make it possible for the average person to use a digital OTA signal has only been available to them in a TV for about 18 months, and in converter boxes for about 9-10 months. That is the major reason the switch did not happen in 2006.

True but 2009 was chosen to be beyond all that.

[edDV]

My question is whether California state tax refund IOU's will be accepted for DTV tuners? I tried for property tax but was told no way Jose.

I suppose I should send the Franchise Tax board IOU's?

[thecoalman]

The whole "expiring coupon" concept, and the fact that fancy (costly?) cards were used, was clearly invented by your typical head-up-ass politicians.

It's like the one sticker I had to pay for on my truck every year,.... cost me $5. Was a special sticker because if you tried to peal it off it would void it. Considering the cost of the sticker, stamps, envelopes, paperwork.....

The other thing I was thinking about the other day is what about the costs of these units. If the government is handing out coupons for $40 there really is no reason to sell one for $40 or even $30. The consumer isn't complaining or even shopping around because it's costing them $10 no matter where they go. It will be interesting to see what these things are priced at in a few months.

[genki500]

I have my boxes (totally 6) since Jun 2005. I am seriously disappointed. Signal have not improved, the extra channel(s) are usually weather channel, or informerical, or Jesus... Only wonderful things are PBS. Those boxes and two huge antenna were expensive, I truly feel my money was wasted. Look at UK, they went from 5 channels to 32 channels, and they have not cut off analog until 2010 (or 2011?). Why are we doing this? People want HD can usually afford dish or cable (yes, I have cable). I really don't see the benefit. Talking about wireless spectrum, come on, they want to sell you 3G, and they can not even NOT dropping your regular call. Is this whole thing a joke? Maybe our area is really bad, any of you guys actually gain worthy new channels?

[edDV]

Digital has potential to roughly triple the number of individual SD channels at any city location or the bitrate can be used for high definition. This will be done in about 60% of former spectrum. If you went back to analog, there would be no HDTV and each city would lose about 40% of the old NTSC stations.

The bulk of the freed spectrum is in the 700-805 MHz band. Also, most of lower VHF (54-88 MHz) is freed for other use. Channels 70-83 (806-890 MHz) have already been reallocated.

Other than DTV this is what you get.
"700 MHz Explained in 10 Steps"
http://gigaom.com/2007/03/14/700mhz-explained/
http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2007/08/700mhz-auction-whats-really-up-for-grabs-an...onopolized.ars

800 MHz band action
http://www.fcc.gov/pshs/public-safety-spectrum/800-MHz/reconfiguration.html
http://www.800mhzrebanding.com/liesrebanding.html

[usually_quiet]

The whole "expiring coupon" concept, and the fact that fancy (costly?) cards were used, was clearly invented by your typical head-up-ass politicians.

It's like the one sticker I had to pay for on my truck every year,.... cost me $5. Was a special sticker because if you tried to peal it off it would void it. Considering the cost of the sticker, stamps, envelopes, paperwork..... :roll:

The other thing I was thinking about the other day is what about the costs of these units. If the government is handing out coupons for $40 there really is no reason to sell one for $40 or even $30. The consumer isn't complaining or even shopping around because it's costing them $10 no matter where they go. It will be interesting to see what these things are priced at in a few months.

The prices are already dropping. The Channel Master's CM-7000 originally sold for $70 or more. I looked today and they were under $50 online. Since August there have been boxes priced at about $40. I 've not seen any selling for less than $39.99, for obvious reasons, since I don't think the coupons can be applied towards tax or shipping.

Its hard to say what these boxes will sell for at full retail when the coupons aren't an issue and supply is no loger a problem, although I wouldn't expect many would sell for under $30, unless they were being clearanced.

[usually_quiet]

any of you guys actually gain worthy new channels?

Yes, I get the Retro Network in addition to 1 PBS lifestyle channel, and one PBS channel devoted to locally produced shows. There's only one weather and traffic channel left, which perfectly is fine and all that is needed. (The other weather and traffic channel was NBC's and went off the air.) Two stations are using their SD subchannel to repeat their primary channel's offerings, and I'm hoping they will have other programming available later. Cornerstone and ShopNBC only have primary channels, just like analog.

There are other new networks around although they haven't arrived here yet. I've seen that Funimation and Qubo have some subchannels in neighboring states.

[usually_quiet]

True but 2009 was chosen to be beyond all that.

9-10 months is not a lot of time if outdoor antennas needed to be replaced or have other work done to them and you live in the northern half of the US. Under those circumstances, if a new TV or converter box was not found by June, or July, those folks are still probably unable to use them. If both converter boxes and TVs had been available for 18 months, I'd say you are right, but as it is the conversion has been rushed.

[lordsmurf]

At my parent's house, some channels only come in for a couple of hours per day, like the evening news, and then the channel is gone. I have yet to understand WTF that is about.

[cal_tony]

At my parent's house, some channels only come in for a couple of hours per day, like the evening news, and then the channel is gone. I have yet to understand WTF that is about.

I was wondering the same thing.
Recently some stations just disappear. Normally the signal registers strong and then it's gone. My Local ABC digital station disappears around 10am and usually doesn't come back on until evening. I just figured it was something
in the environment since the analog signal was still going.


Tony

[MOVIEGEEK]

Is this whole thing a joke? Maybe our area is really bad, any of you guys actually gain worthy new channels?

In my area I receive 8 digital channels(+subchannels) and 29 analog channels,the HD and PQ(lack of snow) on those digital channels makes up for the lack of channels.The people who are going to hurt the most with the transition are those who live in rural and mountainous areas,in those cases they will have to get cable or satellite.
As for some digital stations disappearing during the day:they are probably still working on the antennas during the daytime and they turn them back on at 5pm.In my area ABC and CBS turn off their HD subchannel during the daytime because they are working on a new antenna.They have been advertising they will be fullpower by 7/1/09.

[edDV]

True but 2009 was chosen to be beyond all that.

9-10 months is not a lot of time if outdoor antennas needed to be replaced or have other work done to them and you live in the northern half of the US. Under those circumstances, if a new TV or converter box was not found by June, or July, those folks are still probably unable to use them. If both converter boxes and TVs had been available for 18 months, I'd say you are right, but as it is the conversion has been rushed.

There are separate issues about whether the choice of date was wise, and the consequenses of changing that date at the 11th hour.

[budz]

I believe Hawaii was the first to make the switch to DIGITAL last month. It's the rest of the good ole USA that needs to switch over.

[usually_quiet]

True but 2009 was chosen to be beyond all that.

9-10 months is not a lot of time if outdoor antennas needed to be replaced or have other work done to them and you live in the northern half of the US. Under those circumstances, if a new TV or converter box was not found by June, or July, those folks are still probably unable to use them. If both converter boxes and TVs had been available for 18 months, I'd say you are right, but as it is the conversion has been rushed.

There are separate issues about whether the choice of date was wise, and the consequenses of changing that date at the 11th hour.

If the cut-off date changed at any point during the past year, the only way there wouldn't have been a lot of screaming and moaning on the part of the stations about the cost, the inconvenience, etc. is if they had been the ones asking for more time. A longer transition period following initial converter box availability would have been helpful to consumers, but that is moot. The way the legislation is written, the delay is voluntary, so broadcasters will go ahead and make the transition.

It's not simply the time of the year, although that makes the problem worse. You brought up the limited availability of tower crews to get broadcast transmitters and towers installed as a major reason why the DTV transition must take place on schedule. On the consumer's side, something similar also apples.

A million or more outdoor antennas need to be erected or have work done to them. Some people may be able to do it themselves, but definitely not everyone, and people who do antenna work professionally are not as numerous as they used to be. As it stands, it seems likely that work on that project will still be going into fall of 2009, or beyond, as well.

Without enough people to watch the OTA broadcasts, why bother at all. Just become a cable-only station and be done with it.

I believe Hawaii was the first to make the switch to DIGITAL last month. It's the rest of the good ole USA that needs to switch over.

Wilmington, NC was the first to switch, Hawaii was #2.

[Billf2099]

Lord Smurf,
The digital channels are not broadcasting at full power yet. That's supposed to change big time. I know this is true because I live 6 miles from the broadcast towers in Chicago, can't get Chennel 2 in digital but get the rest, using a amplified antenna. I used to be able to watch TV with literally NO antenna. I understand they are broadcasting at something near 10% power. Channel 2 is also moving to UHF so I'll be able to get that. I hear tell of a tale that a person 3 blocks from the Channel 2 transmitter can't get it. I have satellite, but if I was tethered to antenna's I'd be pissed.

[usually_quiet]

I saw another report about the transition: http://www.tvweek.com/news/2009/01/94_of_households_ready_for_dig.php
in which the author said that Nielsen reported that most of those who are unready are black, asian, hispanic or under 35.

The most tech-savvy, entertainment-oriented age group is the most unready...

[edDV]

I saw another report about the transition: http://www.tvweek.com/news/2009/01/94_of_households_ready_for_dig.php
in which the author said that Nielsen reported that most of those who are unready are black, asian, hispanic or under 35.

The most tech-savvy, entertainment-oriented age group is the most unready...

Under 35 males don't watch much TV.

They are highly desired by advertisers.

The rest have had hundreds of warnings. They will act when they need to. The best Congress can do is fix the coupon program and encourage TV stations to organize their communities.

[usually_quiet]

Under 35 males don't watch much TV.

They are highly desired by advertisers.

The rest have had hundreds of warnings.

If my own relatives are any example, they watch a lot of sports. Sometimes not much else, but definitely whatever sports they follow.

Warnings in what language? I'm sure California has them in Spanish, and perhaps other languages, but that's not true everywhere. I saw only a few in Spanish and there are no Spanish-language TV stations here. We don't have a large Spanish-speaking community, but they are a visible percentage of the population. Advertisers want their dollars too. Most items I pick up include Spanish on their labels.

[edDV]

Under 35 males don't watch much TV.

They are highly desired by advertisers.

The rest have had hundreds of warnings.

If my own relatives are any example, they watch a lot of sports. Sometimes not much else, but definitely whatever sports they follow.

Warnings in what language? I'm sure California has them in Spanish, and perhaps other languages, but that's not true everywhere. I saw only a few in Spanish and there are no Spanish-language TV stations here. We don't have a large Spanish-speaking community, but they are a visible percentage of the population. Advertisers want their dollars too. Most items I pick up have labels in Spanish.

Yes here we have at least 4 Spanish language stations and PBS does all warnings in several languages (did you know Sacramento is the 2nd largest Russian community after Brighton Beach NY?). That doesn't include several more languages on cable.

The experts in local demographics for your market are the TV stations themselves. The TV stations have the vested interest to keep OTA viewers watching and have the knowledge and community contacts to get the problem solved. The others that need help are your immediate neighbors especially in smaller or remote communities. The farther out you go the more antenna issues become important.