Need Hi8 playback options for difficult tapes

[tluxon]

Just before our first child was born in early 1996, we upgraded from our VHS camcorder to a Sony CCD-TR400 Hi8 camcorder. In the next 4 or 5 years I filled up about ten Hi8 tapes (some 60 min, some 120 min) with special occasions and family moments. Once the camcorder started showing signs of needing more than a cleaning tape run through it, it got pushed aside in favor of capturing most memories with digital camera snapshots. At the time, I had digitally captured very limited amounts of video off the tapes, but never all of it.

This month I started trying to get it all digitized, but I've run into some unexpected challenges. A few of the tapes show symptoms of not tracking properly over the camcorder head(s). In fact, one of the "problem" tapes is of a special anniversary party for my parents where my Dad - who passed away this fall - had some precious interactions with our kids. Unfortunately, playback is resulting in a blank screen for significant portions of the tape, even though I can make out exactly what it is when in a FF or REW scanning mode (pressing FF or REW while in PLAY mode).

So what are my options for this task?

Will spending a lot of money getting our camcorder serviced likely enable it to read the "missing" material from the tape?

Would I be better off applying expenses for a Hi8 VCR? Or is that not likely to do any better than a freshly serviced original source camcorder?

Is there any way to override the blank screen of the camcorder so I could at least capture the noisy picture?

If there is anybody in the Seattle area who would be willing to see if my "problem" tapes would play on their equipment, please PM me.

Thanks!

[ozymango]

A few of the tapes show symptoms of not tracking properly over the camcorder head(s). In fact, one of the "problem" tapes is of a special anniversary party for my parents where my Dad - who passed away this fall - had some precious interactions with our kids. Unfortunately, playback is resulting in a blank screen for significant portions of the tape, even though I can make out exactly what it is when in a FF or REW scanning mode (pressing FF or REW while in PLAY mode).

This may not be too bad, this sounds like a classic case of dirty tape heads; you can use a "regular" 8mm cleaning tape on your deck and that should clear things up. I suppose it's possible something more serious is wrong, but I've got a Hi-8mm camcorder myself that I've had this happen on, more than a few times.

Or you can try getting a brand-new tape (maybe you've got an old unopened one somewhere?) and recording over it, just turn the camcorder on, point it at a wall, record for thirty minutes or so, that'll often clean up dirty heads.

If all else fails, I'm not in the immediate Seattle area but I'm in PDX and I'll be glad to try one on my deck. I'm very trustworthy and have even done this sorta thing for other people (references are available!), so PM me if you wanna chat further!

EDIT: Oh, and I used to live in Seattle, and you might check out "Johnson Video" as a local source for tape to DVD transfer, they're good and reliable, if not necessarily cheap (but you get what you pay for!). I think they're actually in Puyallup but they should be in the yellow pages or a google search. Good luck!

[tluxon]

This may not be too bad, this sounds like a classic case of dirty tape heads; you can use a "regular" 8mm cleaning tape on your deck and that should clear things up. I suppose it's possible something more serious is wrong, but I've got a Hi-8mm camcorder myself that I've had this happen on, more than a few times.

Or you can try getting a brand-new tape (maybe you've got an old unopened one somewhere?) and recording over it, just turn the camcorder on, point it at a wall, record for thirty minutes or so, that'll often clean up dirty heads.

I was wondering about it just being dirty heads. I ran a head cleaning tape in it for a couple 10-second stints, but it's probably 8 or more years old. I'll try running it much longer.

Also, I have at least 10 tapes that have never been opened, so I'll try that trick as well. I didn't realize that it could make things better.

Apart from that, is it much more than trivial to try to clean the heads and transport system manually? I'm comfortable carefully disassembling things for cleaning if it's helpful.

Thanks for the offer and the tip on Johnson Video. I'll keep that in mind if "cleaning" doesn't help.

[ozymango]

Apart from that, is it much more than trivial to try to clean the heads and transport system manually? I'm comfortable carefully disassembling things for cleaning if it's helpful.

Well ... that's what I would do, take it apart and clean it manually, that is. BUT the standard disclaimer is, do it at your own risk and I can't be held responsible if you break the heads off or anything.

My own preferred method:

1) Open camcorder/vcr, following whatever the manual says is how to do it (major caveat: This is way by far the hardest part, there are usually hidden screws and plastic tabs that are VERY easy to break). But go slow and you should be okay.

2) For head cleaning, I use a chamois-tipped swab (I've got a stash of these from years ago, might have to search a bit for these but should be still out there). Do NOT use a q-tip or anything that might let little hairs get stuck in anything. I have used a q-tip in emergencies, but it's dangerous. Chamois won't shred.

3) Saturate the chamois swab with 99% or stronger (if you can find it) isopropyl alcohol/denatured alcohol, or a name-brand video head cleaner (I'm cheap, I've never had problems with alcohol).

4) Hold the swab GENTLY touching the video head assembly, so that when your turn the head drum SLOWLY, BY HAND, the video heads pass across the swab. That is, you don't move the swab, you hold the swab static and rotate the head underneath. Do this for ten revs or so. Take a look at the swab -- if you see dirt or anything accumulating, clean it off (just swirl it in some fresh cleaner), and clean the heads again. Do this until you don't see anything left on the swab when you're done.

5) Then, go through the tape path and clean, GENTLY, all the little rollers and anything the tape moves across, you may have to dig around a bit to figure out where it moves. If you're not sure, don't sweat this part as much, better to not clean something than drip too much alcohol everywhere. But make sure the head assembly is clean.

6) Let everything dry AT LEAST an hour. Don't be tempted to put it all back together or play a tape sooner; it's probably safe to do so, but by letting it sit you make sure there's not a drop of liquid inside the camcorder. You get liquid on a spinning, playing video head, it's easy to PERMANENTLY gum it up. I speak from experience.

Dunno if this sounds like a royal pain or not, but it's not so bad once you figure out how to open up everything.

Good luck! And if anybody else has advice, pro or con, on cleaning methods, I'd love to hear more myself!

[dLee]

ozymango, your procedure is nearly identical to the one taught to me back in the early days of the video revolution - when we edited on VCRs. The techs that taught me were in Burbank, CA on a side street near all the TV networks and they maintained everyone's equipment.

Two small differences are:

They warned to never use isopropyl alcohol, because the water in it could leave residue on the heads after they dried. Denatured only.

They didn't like the chamois swabs (I've still got a few, too) because if you turned them on edge, the plastic under the chamois might scratch the heads. You can get chamois wipes, but they steered me toward some special fabric, no lint tech wipes (I've seen them recently, but can't remember the exact name). You wrap your finger with them and use them like you described for the swabs.

I would just add the step of blowing out the mechanism with air after it's apart - before and after cleaning.

I've had good luck with just playing Hi8 tapes all the way through a couple of times at normal speed. Even with clean heads, some Hi8 tapes are just fussy and it seems to help.

[olyteddy]

99% Isopropyl will leave no more residue than denatured. The 1% is the water that alcohol absorbs from the atmosphere. 99% is about a buck a quart. 99.9% is about $100 a quart, and quickly changes to 99% when exposed to air. This is true of most alcohols, including Ethanol. I'd be concerned using denatured Ethanol because of the chemical(s) used to render it unfit for human consumption. They may be worse than the 1% water (which is likely present in the Ethanol too).

[2Bdecided]

If the deck has problems other than dirty heads, then it seems silly(!) to keep running precious tapes through it.

If you can find someone trustworthy, send them the tapes to copy. Send one first to check!

Cheers,
David.

[raffie]

I've recently digitized some Video8 tapes with a Hi8 VCR (Sony EV-S9000E) with full frame TBC built in, perfect results even though the tapes are almost 20 years old. If you can get across one cheap (since it is an obselete format), I'd say get it.

[dLee]

99% Isopropyl will leave no more residue than denatured. The 1% is the water that alcohol absorbs from the atmosphere. 99% is about a buck a quart. 99.9% is about $100 a quart, and quickly changes to 99% when exposed to air. This is true of most alcohols, including Ethanol. I'd be concerned using denatured Ethanol because of the chemical(s) used to render it unfit for human consumption. They may be worse than the 1% water (which is likely present in the Ethanol too).

The advice I got concerned the isopropyl and denatured alcohol that you could buy in a chain drug store. I don't remember what the percentages were, but I'm pretty sure that neither were 99%.

[tluxon]

If the deck has problems other than dirty heads, then it seems silly(!) to keep running precious tapes through it.

If you can find someone trustworthy, send them the tapes to copy. Send one first to check!

Cheers,
David.

I'm at the point where this is one of the things I'm wondering about.

I cleaned the CCD-TR400 as best I could without fully disassembling it. Inside, it looks practically brand new - and in fact I'm almost certain this camcorder has less than 100 hours of power up time on it.

There are still parts of the tapes in question that won't "play" properly. The thing I wonder about is that all the tapes in question play perfectly for the most part. There are just a handful of scenes - probably six or seven single isolated shootings - that seem to be problematic. IIRC, at least a couple of them were noticed to be a problem immediately after shooting, so it's possible they were originally shot with dirty heads or bad alignment and will never be fully "recoverable". Those segments may not have simply gotten "worse".

However, at least a couple of the questionable scenes at least "played" shortly after shooting them and are now only viewable when "scanning" (FF or REW while in PLAY mode).

Bottom line - I probably need a professional or prosumer level deck to see how recoverable these segments really are.

I'm happy to buy something off of eBay and resell it if it's a recommended way to go. If so, which units should I look at?

[INFRATOM]

try fastwarding your tape and rewinding maybe it was not positioned right or heat and expansion caused a bad tension or misplacement on the tapes. A new Hi8 camcorder would probably cost less and on some models you get digital feed through that is good for older 8mm you could save it straight through firewire to your computer. Are the bad spots end of the tape? maybe you can capture whatever it is even in fast motion try to take snap shot and create a slide show for that part it would be blurry but it would be better than nothing.

[olyteddy]

99% Isopropyl will leave no more residue than denatured. The 1% is the water that alcohol absorbs from the atmosphere. 99% is about a buck a quart. 99.9% is about $100 a quart, and quickly changes to 99% when exposed to air. This is true of most alcohols, including Ethanol. I'd be concerned using denatured Ethanol because of the chemical(s) used to render it unfit for human consumption. They may be worse than the 1% water (which is likely present in the Ethanol too).

The advice I got concerned the isopropyl and denatured alcohol that you could buy in a chain drug store. I don't remember what the percentages were, but I'm pretty sure that neither were 99%.

Most rubbing alcohol is only 70%. Many pharmacies hve 99% available directly from the druggist. That's the way I get it. Denatured Alcohol typically will be 80 to 95% Ethanol and the rest (less 1% water) Methanol or some other toxic substance. Here in WA we can also get 190 proof (95%) ethanol at the liquor store...Great when mixed with Kool-Aid... :P :P

[handyguy]

There should be a tracking adjustment, why not use that?

Most vhs starts to turn to fuzz around year 15.

[tluxon]

There should be a tracking adjustment, why not use that?

I looked all over the camcorder for one and couldn't find it. I was also hoping there was a way to turn off the blue-screen-on-noisy-picture function but couldn't find that, either.

Do most of the 8mm VCRs have that?

[olyteddy]

"Do most of the 8mm VCRs have that?"
No. My Sony EV-S900 doesn't have a tracking control and neither does any other piece of 8MM gear I've seen.

[tluxon]

try fastwarding your tape and rewinding maybe it was not positioned right or heat and expansion caused a bad tension or misplacement on the tapes. A new Hi8 camcorder would probably cost less and on some models you get digital feed through that is good for older 8mm you could save it straight through firewire to your computer. Are the bad spots end of the tape? maybe you can capture whatever it is even in fast motion try to take snap shot and create a slide show for that part it would be blurry but it would be better than nothing.

I've FF'd and REW'd the tape several times but it doesn't seem to make a difference.

I'm planning to capture what I can in FF and REW mode with this camcorder, but it goes by very fast and has 3 or 4 horizontal scan lines running through it, not to mention that there is no sound.

You mentioned a "new Hi8 camcorder" - does anybody make these anymore? I can't help but wonder if any camcorder could play the tapes in question any better than this one that made them. The biggest problem seems to be that the camcorder blue screens when noise gets to a certain level. I remember having a VCR back in the old days that never blue screened on noisy content, and then I remember getting one that had the option to turn that blue screen "feature" off.

Are there any 8mm VCRs or camcorders (new or used) that allow the "blue-screen-on-noise" feature to be disabled?

[Valnar]

8mm and Hi8 camcorders are sold on eBay all the time.

As long as you have a pool of money to play with, it should not cost you much to buy a better used camcorder off eBay. Once you are done with it, sell it again and recover most of your money. Surely that cost and hassle is worth your memories.

[CinemaMax]

Check out the GV-D200 Digital8 Video Walkman VCR:

http://www.pcnation.com/web/details.asp?affid=306&item=D64338

It will play 8mm and Hi8 and output to firewire.
You can probably get your money back or even make a profit selling it on ebay after you're done with it.

[tluxon]

Check out the GV-D200 Digital8 Video Walkman VCR:

http://www.pcnation.com/web/details.asp?affid=306&item=D64338

It will play 8mm and Hi8 and output to firewire.
You can probably get your money back or even make a profit selling it on ebay after you're done with it.

Hey, thanks for the link! I had seen this unit mentioned before but I didn't remember anybody having new ones in stock.

It's gotta be worth a shot.

[tluxon]

I got the GV-D200 last week, but I'm just now getting to using it. It does do a better job of playing the problem areas on my Hi8 tapes, but there remain sections that won't "play" without going at a different speed. Fortunately, the GV-D200 allows several speed selections that allow me to at least get a noisy picture at slower than warp speed. I'll do the best I can with this puppy and then see if I can't find someone around here with better equipment that can read those parts of the tape more completely.

The DV AVI files (using WinDV) are much smaller than a raw capture in VDub - about 13GB per hour. If I wanted to convert them to 10 or less Mbits/sec MPEG-2, what are the best/easiest/least expensive tools?

[handyguy]

"Do most of the 8mm VCRs have that?"
No. My Sony EV-S900 doesn't have a tracking control and neither does any other piece of 8MM gear I've seen.

It's usually not labeled. On my vcrs, its Ch up/down button during playback. Not sure how they do it on a camcorder.

[tluxon]

The DV AVI files (using WinDV) are much smaller than a raw capture in VDub - about 13GB per hour. If I wanted to convert them to 10 or less Mbits/sec MPEG-2, what are the best/easiest/least expensive tools?

Also, can someone recommend a simple cut-and-splice tool for DV AVI files that minimizes re-encoding?

Thanks!

[danno78]

VirtualDub
On Video and Audio set "Direct stream copy". Just select with arrows the parts that you what to keep/delete and then hit F7 or from File menu choose"Save as".

[2Bdecided]

I'd use VirtualDub for that job.

However, "most" video editing packages do a lossless copy of DV projects with simple cut/paste edits. They only e-encode (which isn't that bad for DV) any sections with titles, cross-fades, transitions, colour correction etc etc.

Cheers,
David.