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  1. Member waefwaeefwaefw's Avatar
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    I'm innocent, I swear xP
    How can such things happen, even all addional color and luminance filters of the videoplayer software are turned off...so guess we should have actually pictures that show the differences without interference of any filter...
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  2. Member waefwaeefwaefw's Avatar
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    And I can even guarantee that it is a commercial DVD ^^!
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  3. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Assuming a commercial DVD, what are you doing to it step by step to get that result?

    DVD player software
    file generation
    file player
    frame grab method
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  4. Member waefwaeefwaefw's Avatar
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    uhm ok I start off with
    Cyberlink PowerDVD v6
    and basicly use the integrated method of PowerDVD to generate a picture with a simple click and then give that bmp to photoshop make a new file put 2 pictures in one and safe them under "for web and devices" 80percent quality JPEG with addiontal sRGB color management

    thats basicly it
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  5. Member waefwaeefwaefw's Avatar
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    @jagabo
    How did you reach that levels it looks quite good but dunno, do u think it would turn out the same or the last two images I have posted!?
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  6. Member waefwaeefwaefw's Avatar
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    Ok I have now taken another way to make a snapshot and it's a png now maybe u get another result
    I post them as individual files

    from the trailer

    vlcsnap-485361.png
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  7. Member waefwaeefwaefw's Avatar
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    from the movie

    vlcsnap-484683.png
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  8. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    EdDV beat me. I was just about to say this looks like IRE and luminance problems. The fil source was also clearly film, while the other source may have been from (gasp -- say it ain't so!) broadcast VHS converted via early-model Panasonic DVD recorders! This is precisely the problem you run into with those crappy old machines, and studios were known to use them for unimportant things -- like trailers!

    Do any of you notice how crappy the Berne/FBI warnings look on DVDs, even Blu-Ray discs? The warnings look to have been lifted from old VHS tapes, it's awful.
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  9. Originally Posted by waefwaeefwaefw
    @jagabo
    How did you reach that levels it looks quite good but dunno, do u think it would turn out the same or the last two images I have posted!?
    I used the Levels filter to pull the black level down, the white level up (too much, like the other shot), and adjusted the gamma to bring out details in the middle. I also used Gradation Curves to bump the blue channel up a bit. The same settings will not work with the other shots.

    Your "bad" shots are all just about right for a professional DVD converted to computer RGB with the standard rec601 matrix (blacks level at RGB 0, whites at 255). If you want a more TV-like appearance for online posting adjust the gamma to about 1.3 and increase the brightness (white level 220 -> 255).



    If you want less saturation have the levels filter operate in YUV. If you want more saturation have it work in RGB. White level from 220 -> 255 may be a bit too much for other shots. You'll have to find a compromise for the entire movie or work scene by scene.
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  10. Member waefwaeefwaefw's Avatar
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    OMG I actually wouldn't have so much of a problem to work it out scene by scene but seriously doubt that the whole film would fit in uncompressed RGB on my harddrive. I already have a little cartoon on my harddrive that spreads out uncompressed to 13GB/10Min and that little cartoon doesn't even have that many colors.
    My guess is that I would end up with at least 25-30GB/10Min at uncompressed RGB.
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  11. Member waefwaeefwaefw's Avatar
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    PS I have found out that they have really changed the color of the cat during the production. Only the first 4-6 minutes it has that brownish and then it's changed to what it looks like thoughout the whole movie, that kind of grey. Strangely we can see that the cat in the real film is colored bluish grey from the beginning on and that again would bring me to the guess that they have maybe simply changed the whole colorspace for the benefit of the cat - what you guys think could that be!?
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  12. 10 minutes of Uncompressed RGB full D1 PAL:

    720 (width) * 576 (height) * 3 (bytes per pixel) * 25 (fps) * 60 (seconds per minute) * 10 (minutes) ~= 19 GB
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  13. Originally Posted by waefwaeefwaefw
    Strangely we can see that the cat in the real film is colored bluish grey from the beginning on...
    You have the actual film? Or the original animation cells?
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  14. Member waefwaeefwaefw's Avatar
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    Nee, I don't have the animation cells XD
    I only noticed that the trailer composed out of some parts that are viewed in the middle and near the end of the film. I had it just overlooked beause the same intro sequence is also part of the trailer, and that are the few minutes the cat is rather brown than grey.
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  15. By the way, restorations like this often come from multiple negatives and prints of the original film because some are in better shape than others and some will be missing reels. That would explain the color differences.
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  16. Member waefwaeefwaefw's Avatar
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    They even mentioned the camera type they used, in the additonal audio track, can't remember the name but they said it was the same that was used for "Roger Rabbit". And "Roger Rabbit" was 1988 in the movie theatres...
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  17. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Sometimes it's good enough to write a warning before old footage stating "Note: You may need to adjust your television or DVD player settings for colors, black level, contrast and brightness to achieve optimal picture quality."

    TV sets can change too!
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  18. Banned
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    Originally Posted by edDV
    waef, you complain about chroma saturation but the issue appears to be luminance levels and gamma, not saturation. You need to fix luminance first. This is usually the case with YCbCr video, >80% of "color" issues are caused by shifts in luminance gain, black level or gamma.
    I agree, EdDV. Levels should be fixed before addressing color balance.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 20th Mar 2014 at 11:17.
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    Originally Posted by waefwaeefwaefw
    uhm ok I start off with
    Cyberlink PowerDVD v6
    and basicly use the integrated method of PowerDVD to generate a picture with a simple click and then give that bmp to photoshop make a new file put 2 pictures in one and safe them under "for web and devices" 80percent quality JPEG with addiontal sRGB color management

    thats basicly it
    I believe all versions of PowerDVD have a "config" menu with playback settings such as Movie, Sports, etc., or something like that. The no-processing setting to use is likely called "Natural", or something similar. Any other playback setting will change the luminance/color of what you see. However, if memory serves I don't think PowerDVD's capture function does any image processing except a straight copy. Photoshop -> to JPG shouldn't affect the color balance, eitgher; as a matter of fact, Photoshop changes only the display quality, not the original image data, with most of its settings. To change the original data, you have get into some seriously deep menu items. Anyway, if your captures reflect what you see in your tv or PC viewing, they should be accurate representations.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 20th Mar 2014 at 11:17.
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    Originally Posted by waefwaeefwaefw
    OMG I actually wouldn't have so much of a problem to work it out scene by scene but seriously doubt that the whole film would fit in uncompressed RGB on my harddrive. I already have a little cartoon on my harddrive that spreads out uncompressed to 13GB/10Min and that little cartoon doesn't even have that many colors.
    My guess is that I would end up with at least 25-30GB/10Min at uncompressed RGB.
    You can use an editor to cut the movie into smaller sections and fix smaller segments at a time. You can't do much video work on a hard drive smaller than about 200-GB. Even with a big drive, I usually work with just a few minutes of video at a time.

    Using huffyuv compression will reduce the size to 1/2 or 1/3 the original at default settings. Working in RGB, you should recompress as few times as possible.

    If your DVD isn't copy-protected, or if you have a workaround for it, you can copy a VOB file from the disc and change its file extension from .vob to .mpg, then convert to compressed AVI with VirtualDub-MPEG2. However, you'd need an AC3 encoder/decoder for VirtualDub-MPEG2 to convert the audio to PCM or some other Windows format for further editing. Once you fix a portion of video, your MPG encoder can restore the AC3 audio (you wouldn't want to re-edit in the original AC3 audio anyway, AC3 format is lousy for re-processing).

    In any case, it's unlikely you could improve the video very much without getting it onto a PC. The Tools and Guides section of this forum have an amazing amount of no-cost documentation and software that can do the job. To start, look into VirtualDub or similar tools. Trying to fix a video with just a player or even a good proc amp won't solve that many problems. Only drawback: a tool like VirtualDub can have only two effects on your psyche -- either you'll get sick of it immediately and chuck the whole project , or you'll get addicted and start fixing every video you get your hands on .
    Last edited by sanlyn; 20th Mar 2014 at 11:17.
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  21. Member waefwaeefwaefw's Avatar
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    @sanlyn
    It's not like I would have never used VirtualDub but I have never merged a file in VirtualDub, only seperated ^^"

    @jagabo
    Why should I use 25 fps? Isn't film standard still 24fps or is the DVD standard targeting 25fps o.o?
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    Originally Posted by waefwaeefwaefw
    @sanlyn
    It's not like I would have never used VirtualDub but I have never merged a file in VirtualDub, only seperated ^^"

    @jagabo
    Why should I use 25 fps? Isn't film standard still 24fps or is the DVD standard targeting 25fps o.o?
    You can merge videos in VirtualDub, but the suggestion here is to use VirtualDubMPEG to cut MPG into smaller AVI chunks for processing. No need to merge resulting AVI's until you get to the encoder stage.

    If your DVD is NTSC, the frame rate is 29.97 fps, which is the NTSC and DVD standard (often stated as a rounded 30fps, 25fps for PAL). The original (film) movie was likely shot at 25fps, but is converted by any of several processes to display at 29.97 fps for NTSC broadcast and VHS/DVD production. There should be no need to change frame rate or interlace characteristics when re-processing the video.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 20th Mar 2014 at 11:17.
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    Originally Posted by jagabo
    I used the Levels filter to pull the black level down, the white level up (too much, like the other shot), and adjusted the gamma to bring out details in the middle. I also used Gradation Curves to bump the blue channel up a bit. The same settings will not work with the other shots.

    Your "bad" shots are all just about right for a professional DVD converted to computer RGB with the standard rec601 matrix (blacks level at RGB 0, whites at 255). If you want a more TV-like appearance for online posting adjust the gamma to about 1.3 and increase the brightness (white level 220 -> 255).

    If you want less saturation have the levels filter operate in YUV. If you want more saturation have it work in RGB. White level from 220 -> 255 may be a bit too much for other shots. You'll have to find a compromise for the entire movie or work scene by scene.
    Right, jagabo. As I noted earlier, I don't think the "oversaturation" in the DVD is all that severe -- just looks like it because weird luminance is throwing the eyeballs into confusion.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 20th Mar 2014 at 11:18.
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    Originally Posted by waefwaeefwaefw
    And I can even guarantee that it is a commercial DVD ^^!
    Ooops. I don't know why I kept overlookiong this statement.

    Most commercial DVD's are copy-protected. If true in this case, most software or recorders won't accept this video, or will have serious playback problems. So simply copying .vob files to your PC likely won't work. I note some software in the tools section that (allegedly) work around this issue, but their use can be intimidating and doesn't always work.

    I've made backup copies of many retail DVD's by recording them into another DVD recorder with an AVT-8710 TBC between the two machines. There are cheap "stabilizers" that can eliminate copy protection, but the image you get won't have the quality available thru a good TBC. Anyone here have a non-TBC workaround for this? I've had a TBC around for so many years, I never had to deal with this issue using any other means.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 20th Mar 2014 at 11:18.
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  25. Originally Posted by sanlyn
    Originally Posted by waefwaeefwaefw
    Why should I use 25 fps? Isn't film standard still 24fps or is the DVD standard targeting 25fps o.o?
    If your DVD is NTSC, the frame rate is 29.97 fps, which is the NTSC and DVD standard (often stated as a rounded 30fps, 25fps for PAL). The original (film) movie was likely shot at 25fps, but is converted by any of several processes to display at 29.97 fps for NTSC broadcast and VHS/DVD production. There should be no need to change frame rate or interlace characteristics when re-processing the video.
    Since many of your sample images were 576 lines tall I assumed you had a PAL DVD.

    Film is shot at 24 fps. Usually when converted PAL DVD it is sped up to 25 fps. NTSC DVDs from film are slowed down to 23.976 fps and have pulldown flags that instruct the DVD player how to create 59.94 fields per second.
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  26. Originally Posted by sanlyn
    Most commercial DVD's are copy-protected. If true in this case, most software or recorders won't accept this video, or will have serious playback problems. So simply copying .vob files to your PC likely won't work. I note some software in the tools section that (allegedly) work around this issue, but their use can be intimidating and doesn't always work.

    I've made backup copies of many retail DVD's by recording them into another DVD recorder with an AVT-8710 TBC between the two machines. There are cheap "stabilizers" that can eliminate copy protection, but the image you get won't have the quality available thru a good TBC. Anyone here have a non-TBC workaround for this? I've had a TBC around for so many years, I never had to deal with this issue using any other means.
    You could use DVDFab HD Decrypter, or since this is an oldie, probably DVD Decrypter would even work



    Just a few questions for the restoration experts here, trying to pick up a few things:

    Why use uncompressed RGB intermediate? Can't you just use vdub with mpeg2 import plugin directly? Doesn't vdub automatically convert to RGB internally anyways (using full processsing mode)?

    If space was an issue, would another valid method be just to use avisynth, viewing with AvsP, and apply filters in segments? You wouldn't need any intermediate files or use extra HD space, cut up or join any files, and could feed straight to HCenc for encoding (assuming the final format goal was MPEG2/DVD, not for some streaming site)?
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    Originally Posted by poisondeathray
    Just a few questions for the restoration experts here, trying to pick up a few things:

    Why use uncompressed RGB intermediate? Can't you just use vdub with mpeg2 import plugin directly? Doesn't vdub automatically convert to RGB internally anyways (using full processsing mode)?

    If space was an issue, would another valid method be just to use avisynth, viewing with AvsP, and apply filters in segments? You wouldn't need any intermediate files or use extra HD space, cut up or join any files, and could feed straight to HCenc for encoding (assuming the final format goal was MPEG2/DVD, not for some streaming site)?
    There are various takes on this, but likely most people who've done some VHS or existing MPEG cleanup would agree that MPEG itself is a destructive (i.e, "lossy") compression format, like JPEG. Almost any filtering or re-reprocessing method would have to decompress, convert to another color-space or several others, re-compress, reconvert color spaces, and on and on. Admittedly, an initial decompress from MPG to AVI (either uncompressed AVI or a lossless compression like huffyuv) does involve a decompression step and sometimes a color-space change if you specify one. If you take care from that point on before a final recompress to MPEG, you won't see too much visual or audio damage.

    Even if you aren't going for DVD but aim at streaming video, extensive re-processing of lossy compression formats (mpg, divx, wmv, .mov, etc.) takes a heavy toll in quality and has effects similar to those you see when copying VHS tape for several generations with cheap VCR's. If all you want to do is cut the video into chunks and move directly from one lossy format to another (e.g., mpg to wmv, even with some slight resizing) you likely won't see too much damage if you're careful. But in this case we're talking about extensive color and luminance work.

    Another consideration: AviSynth can be indispensable in many ways, and there are other utilities with many features, but the popularity of VirtualDub, AVI, huffyuv, etc., are arguably due to their flexibility, convenience, wide availablity of plugins, available documentation, control over compression and color-space shifts, and so on. The same could be said for Adobe and Sony (but how many people have $four $figure$ to spend on toys these days?). Is a version of NeatVideo or Nagiller's Gradation Curves filter available for use with software other than VirtualDub, Premiere or Vegas? How many video editors or processors will let you import some Photoshop filter settings into your process chain? How much do you need to know about video matrices to set up HCenc's .ini file?

    Still, many people wouldn't touch VirtualDub or AviSynth, not even if they or the software were wrapped in ten layers of HazMat gear, so there you go. There are VirtualDub fans who go thru extremes to prevent real or imagined damage from practically any form of video processing, no matter what software or hardware is used. The method you mention is possible and has its advantages.

    Yes, many VirtualDub and AviSynth plugins use RGB, but many don't. People debate pro and con about which color space to use for which type of video; but all will agree that constantly shifting between color spaces is damaging in itself, and multiple compression/recompression with lossy compressors is a no-no for sure.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 20th Mar 2014 at 11:18.
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  28. Member 2Bdecided's Avatar
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    [quote="sanlyn"]
    Originally Posted by poisondeathray
    There are various takes on this, but likely most people who've done some VHS or existing MPEG cleanup would agree that MPEG itself is a destructive (i.e, "lossy") compression format, like JPEG. Almost any filtering or re-reprocessing method would have to decompress, convert to another color-space or several others, re-compress, reconvert color spaces, and on and on. Admittedly, an initial decompress from MPG to AVI (either uncompressed AVI or a lossless compression like huffyuv) does involve a decompression step and sometimes a color-space change if you specify one. If you take care from that point on before a final recompress to MPEG, you won't see too much visual or audio damage.
    The point was the "initial decompression to AVI" is pointless - just throw the MPEG-2 at VirtualDub, and it'll do exactly the same thing, but on-the-fly - no need for an initial AVI.

    There are valid reasons to decompress to a temporary file first (e.g. dodgy/unreliable decoder, slow decoder, no compatible virtualdub decoder) - but none of these should apply to standard MPEG-2.

    Obviously you can save the output from VirtualDub in whatever format you choose. That will be a large file if you choose uncompressed AVI (HuffYUV or near lossless is a better choice!) but at least you only need to keep the processed version in a large file, not the original.


    At the end of the day, you either buy the required HDD space, buy a near-lossless codec, figure out an AVIsynth workflow to avoid intermediate files, work on little bits at a time, or give up.

    Your choice will be determined in part by how much your time is worth to you.

    Cheers,
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  29. There is one reason not to open an MPG file in VirtualDub directly: it doesn't handle the chroma channels of interlaced YV12 correctly. It treats the chroma channels as progressive thereby blending the colors of the two fields together:



    On the left is one field (simple bob) from an MPG file with chroma channels handled correctly. On the right is what VirtualDub does on conversion from YV12 to RGB. Notice how the gray bar is less gray and there is a gray "shadow" on the reddish DVD case (that's where the gray bar is in the other field of the frame).
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  30. Member waefwaeefwaefw's Avatar
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    So there even is a difference of a progressive film and a progressive chroma channel o.0?
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