Write Speeds - anything new?

[Mike99]

It’s the eternal question - is it better to burn at less than the max speed?

I’ve searched, I’ve read, I’m still not sure. I’ve been using TY 8X DVD-R discs and never really gave burn speed much of a thought.

But now I bought some Verbatim 16X DVD-R MiT discs and thought it might be time to catch up on the latest recommendations. It still looks like there are two camps - burn at max because some media does not burn well at a reduced speed versus burn at a reduced speed for less errors.

I was hoping technological advances in the last year or so might have swayed the thinking one way or the other, but it appears not. BTW, I have a 20X LG drive.

Any comments would be appreciated, especially if you have had any experience with recent Verbatim discs.

Thank you in advance.

[orsetto]

Nothing really new. The first year or so of Verbatim 16x was great, equal to its legendary 8x media. Recent Verbatim 16x (made after mid-2007) is very random in quality- it is no longer in the same "always reliable archival" grade category it once was. Very new burners are required to get the most out of it, usually with the burn speed on "auto" select which averages 12x give or take. Taiyo Yuden 8x remains extremely good media, burns very well on autospeed which tends to be 6x-8x. The newer the burner, the better the high-speed performance with any media.

[jman98]

Take this for whatever it's worth. For the record I almost never do media scans after burning and I am not at all one of those people who puts a lot of stock in such.

I had a couple of DVDs to copy for family members and I needed to use a single layer DVD+R disc and a DVD+R DL disc. In the single layer case, I burned at 8x and 4x using Verbatim media. In the DL case, I burned at 2.4x and 4x using Verbatim media. I did disc scans with Nero after burning. I did see significantly fewer errors on the lower speed burns. Since I am not really pressed for time when I burn, I usually burn single layer DVDs at 4x and DL discs at 2.4x.

Some recent reports suggest that 16x speed media by anybody is no longer as reliable as it once was (see orsetto's post above) at the highest speed. I haven't heard much good about burning at 20x, although some people do it. Others have posted negative experiences doing so. I'd say that if you simply must burn as quickly as possible then do so, but if you care more about making sure you get a good burn and don't care about how long it takes, lower speed is probably more reliable. I think the Verbatim Made in Taiwan discs are excellent and if I was going to burn 16x speed, they'd be the ones I'd want to try.

[MOVIEGEEK]

I burn all 16x DVDR at 8x regardless of the brand,the difference in time is 2 minutes on my writer but the wait is worth it.
On DVD+R DL I burn at 4x even though my writer is rated at 8x,again the wait is worth it.

[fritzi93]

I think the Verbatim Made in Taiwan discs are excellent and if I was going to burn 16x speed, they'd be the ones I'd want to try.

I use these: MCC-004-00. Supposedly MIT (Made in Taiwan), made by CMC or Prodisc using MCC dye, etc. to Mitsubishi specs. Burned, oh, at least 50, no problems.

I usually burn at 8x, then run a disc quality scan. Invariably, it comes up as 95%. I tried a couple at 16x and got results in the mid-80s. [shrugs]

I agree with you, scans may have value for comparison, but otherwise, no. Since they *seem* to burn better at 8x and I'm not running a production line, 8x is okay. BTW, the discs burnt at 16x play fine.

[Mike99]

Thanks for the feedback. I'm not in any hurry and do not need to burn at 16X. I don't care how fast or how slow, I just want the most reliable burn.

Thanks again and I'll use the 8X speed.

[lordsmurf]

16x has never been suggested. Burn at 4x-12x for best results. This is nothing new.

I also firmly disagree that quality of Verbatim has slid at all, it is quite excellent. The only bad burns found in tests tend to come from 16x or higher (18x-20x) burns, or from really old drives (laser related more likely than firmware related).

[orsetto]

I honestly don't care if current retail Verbatims are made of solid gold and hit 100% on every PC error test: that isn't my sole definition of "quality". If the damned things can't be burned in a one or two year old standalone DVD recorder, they are utterly useless to me. Since flexible, high quality DVD recorders have all but disappeared from the marketplace and cannot be firmware-updated to cope with Verbatims (CMCs) "dye of the month" changes, I can't use retail Verbatim. The 8x-rated DataLife, yes, but not the 16x superstore made-to-a-price-point Verbs. Its disgusting that the only media you can buy thats still broadly compatible is TY: is it really *that* difficult to make decent discs? Two years ago Verbatim 16x and Sony 16x bought in retail stores burned as well or better than TY 8x in a huge assortment of hardware, then they went straight to hell. I keep a large supply of the older 16x media on hand to confirm its the discs that changed, it isn't laser failure. If I get 70% coasters on 16x Verbs I bought last week, but the same hardware immediately accepts and burns the older 16x Verbs, its the new media not my laser.

[lordsmurf]

I've looked into your Verbatim problem many times, and I just don't see any information that would back it up. It sucks that you seem to have had some oddball negative experiences.

[Bodyslide]

I have burned about 400/600 Verbatim each 16x over the past few years. And no issues to date. I also only burn at 8x, burning really fast is not an issue for me or my customers

[MysticE]

It’s the eternal question - is it better to burn at less than the max speed?

I’ve searched, I’ve read, I’m still not sure. I’ve been using TY 8X DVD-R discs and never really gave burn speed much of a thought.

But now I bought some Verbatim 16X DVD-R MiT discs and thought it might be time to catch up on the latest recommendations. It still looks like there are two camps - burn at max because some media does not burn well at a reduced speed versus burn at a reduced speed for less errors.

I was hoping technological advances in the last year or so might have swayed the thinking one way or the other, but it appears not. BTW, I have a 20X LG drive.

Any comments would be appreciated, especially if you have had any experience with recent Verbatim discs.

Thank you in advance.

The burn speed debate can go on and on. But it's pretty easy to find what works best and at what speed by perusing the literally thousands of scans posted at CDFreaks.

If scans are to be trusted you may find this interesting.

Here's an example of a well reviewed LG burner “LG GH22LP20 is a solid performer and an excellent choice for reliable CD and DVD burning at record speeds. It effortlessly produces quality burns faster than most other drives to date. We highly recommend it.” paired with Taiyo Yuden discs.

SONY DVD-R 16X ( TYG03 )
Batch #GH000073 - 0909
LG GH22NP20 1.00 ...Nero CD/DVD Speed 4.7.7.15
Burn Speed 4X

Note the quality score of this 4X burn.



Let's move up a few notches.

SONY DVD-R 16X ( TYG03 )
Batch #GH000073 - 0909
LG GH22NP20 1.00 ...Nero CD/DVD Speed 4.7.7.15
Burn Speed 12X

Now note the quality score whan burned at 12X.



The "I always burn at 4X for quality" folks would be a bit offtrack with this drive.

[lordsmurf]

That's a useful scan, at least to show how burning too slow can be worse than closer to the disc rating.

[Gen-An]

I've amassed some high quality media so I feel safe burning at 16x, I haven't noticed any problems in playback or major differences in quality scans. I can even get away with overspeeding quite a bit of my 8x DVD+R to 12x on my Plextors.

[Mike99]

I have a 20X LG GSA-H55L drive. What does it take to do a quality scan with this drive? I'm under the impression the LG drives are good for writing, but not for getting diagnostic information. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[lordsmurf]

The above scans were done on a BenQ. Look at the images closely.

[Mike99]

The above scans were done on a BenQ. Look at the images closely.

The figures show a 16X Sony/TY disc recorded on an LG drive & that 12X speed is better than 4X.

A lot of comments suggest burning at about half the max disc speed. I burned several 16X Verbatims at 8X and they work. But it makes me wonder if I should increase the record speed. I’m not in any hurry & figure may as well go for the best burn quality.

The Nero CD-DVD Speed program does not give me any quality information using my LG drive. I’d rather not buy another drive just to see if 8X, 12X or 16X works the best. I was hoping for another program that might give me some basic quality info about discs.

[lordsmurf]

"I was hoping for another program that might give me some basic quality info about discs."

No, it's about the hardware, not the software.

[VegasBud]

Mike99,

While it's true that each "make/model/batch" disk has a burn-speed-sweet-spot, there is no way to determine what that speed is without very expensive equipment and skilled people to analyze the test results. Short of that, all you can do is burn test disks at different speeds, and then try them in as many other drives as you can...a hit-or-miss technique that is never going to give you a definitive answer.

If you want high quality burns, use high quality media. That's the best advice I can give you.

Since you asked, "quality scans" don't actually measure quality, they only indicate how well a specific drive was able to read a specific disk (when read at a specific maximum speed), as burned by a specific drive (when burned at a specific speed). They don't tell you how well the same disk will work in any other drive. Unless you're using high quality media, the "test" results don't even provide a reliable estimation of how well the next disk from the same batch will work, even if burned the same way, and read the same way, with the same drives.

I'm afraid lordsmurf is correct. Consumer level drives just aren't suitable for the job. The best software in the world isn't going to change that.

[Mike99]

I hear what you're saying about all the variables involved with disc quality. There are a lot of people doing a lot of scans & I figured there must be something they are looking for. IOW a trend - slow vs fast burn.

For example, the scan pictures & comments posted above by MysticE indicate that slow burning is not necessarily the way to go, at least for that combination of variables. I'm not sure what all that scan data means, but there appears to be a lot more failures at 4X than at 12X.

I realize there is no guarantee that my discs will play in all drives, but I'd like to try to get the maximum coverage possible along with a DVD that will last a long time.

I guess you might say I'm looking for a starting point. Or maybe things NOT to do.

[VegasBud]

Mike99,

...there appears to be a lot more failures at 4X than at 12X.

There's a good reason for that. As the burn speed increases, the disk rotates faster, and the amount of time a given spot on the disk is "under" the laser is decreased, which requires not only an increased sensitivity in the dye layer, but also higher power output from the laser. By the time you get to 16x, you're well into a series of problems related to thermal interference that arise from the inability of the recording layer (dye and reflective combined) to disperse the heat quickly enough. As you might guess, the recording layer requirements for 16x media are quite different than for 4x media. By the time you get down to 4x, the 16x dye formulation is far from optimal. If you want to burn at 4x, you really shouldn't be using 16x media.

I realize there is no guarantee that my discs will play in all drives, but I'd like to try to get the maximum coverage possible along with a DVD that will last a long time.

The biggest factor in maximum reading/playback compatibility is using high quality media. Taiyo Yuden and Verbatim have the best reputation because you can pretty much count on one of their disks being useable in just about any drive, pretty much regardless of what drive did the burning.
If you're using anything but high quality media, try to avoid writing to the outer 5% of the disk. There isn't much you can do about it with single layer media, but with dual layer it's something to consider when you're choosing the layer break position.

For "last a long time" (or longevity), the biggest factor is how you treat the burned disk.

Light, heat, and humidity can all degrade the dye prematurely, so they should be minimized as much as possible or reasonable.
Any damage to the read surface is using up your error correction. At a certain point the drive won't be able to offset the damage anymore, data integrity goes out the window, and the formerly good disk becomes a problem disk.
Never, ever, use stick-on labels on optical media.
If you have the space, amaray cases with m-lock hubs (stored vertically) are your best option for storing the disks. Using any case which requires you to wrestle with the dvd to get it out of the case is something to be avoided, as is any case which doesn't hold the disk securely.

[Mike99]

I was using 8X DVD-R TY discs, but recently bought some 16X DVD-R Verbatims. I just remember reading many posting over the last few years that a lot of people recommended burning at slower than maximum speed. So now I starting reading up on the subject some more.

As per the above postings, a lot of people still recommend burning at about half the max speed. However MysticE's posting shows 12X better than 4X. Maybe 4X is too slow. But now I'm curious how 8X and 16X look. Are they about the same as 12X?

Unfortunately my LG drive cannot read out a quality scan. So I'm trying to get a rough idea what most people recommend.

I do store the discs in what I think is a safe environment.

[lordsmurf]

Your LG drive can run speed reads.

[OldeMan]

I'm with Lord Smurf on the Verbatiums...

I have burned quite a few Verbatium 16x (DVD+R and DVD-R) printables from warehouse clubs in my Pioneer (531H and 640H) DVD recorders w/o any problems. I always record to HD first and high speed burn to DVD with the Pioneers. I have also burned a few 16x Verbatium DVD+Rs in an old Philips DVD recorder at real time (1X) as it has no hard drive.

On my computer DVD burners, I use DVD+R Verbatium exclusively and burn 16x media at 8X. I stay away from made in India or Singpore DVD packages. Over the last nine years, I've tried most brands of blank DVD media (available in USA) but none have been as consistant as the Verbatiums of the last 3-4 years.

my $.02