Philips 3576H burn quality tests and question about upconversion

[ministry88]

OK. I've given it a lot of thought and I may very well just cave in and get this unit. For those of you who care I've been on a saga to find a decent DVD Recorder since I sent back my el-cheapo Toshiba VCR/DVD combo recorder unit. Please keep in mind I HAVE sifted through the forums to find my answers, but couldn't find them...

**My question to owners of the Philips: Has it been reliable for burning? HOW LONG have you had it? I know longevity and durability is a big problem with these DVD recorders, and this will be KEY for me as I have 100s of VHS to convert to DVD-R. I see a lot of "edited" consumer reviews of DVD Recorders on amazon.com where formerly glowing reviews are soured three months later (AKA 90 days!!!) when the unit refuses to record. Also, have you tested the burn quality with benchmarking software like Nero Disc speed? I get an average of 95-98% on my burns on my computer burner (a LITE-ON SHW-160P6S) using Nero Disc speed's "disc quality" feature and get perfect benchmarks as well with that program. FYI: I use only Verbatim 8x DVD-Rs and have a Velocity Micro Vision GX computer with 2GB RAM w/ a 2.4GHz AMD Athlon 64 3800+ Processor.

Am I a fool to expect the Philips could ever produce similarly reliable burns and for years to come? Or ANY stand-alone DVD Recorder (even the legendary discontinued Toshibas)? Even if the burn quality turned about to be 80 or so, that would be OK (at least it's better than 34 on my old Toshiba VCR/DVD combo recorder!).

**Second question: I truly AM confused about upconverting. My basic question is this: If I don't do any upconverting (that is, just copying a VHS to a SD DVD-R or a SD DVD to a SD DVD-R), will those SD DVD-Rs look like mush on next-gen displays, like 1080p plasma TVs or Front Projectors? The whole idea behind my project is an ARCHIVE that I can retrieve if needed as a backup and of course it would be useless if SD DVD-Rs look like garbage on the displays of the future!

Thanks for the much-needed help as always everyone!

[usually_quiet]

**Second question: I truly AM confused about upconverting. My basic question is this: If I don't do any upconverting (that is, just copying a VHS to a SD DVD-R or a SD DVD to a SD DVD-R), will those SD DVD-Rs look like mush on next-gen displays, like 1080p plasma TVs or Front Projectors? The whole idea behind my project is an ARCHIVE that I can retrieve if needed as a backup and of course it would be useless if SD DVD-Rs look like garbage on the displays of the future!

Just to be clear, you do understand that upconversion is something that happens when a DVD is played back, dont't you? The recordings themselves are still SD for all DVD recorders.

No matter what you do, the recordings you make are not going to show the kind of detail present in a commercial DVD when it is upscaled. In comparison, your recordings will look out of focus when upscaled. The lower resolution of the original VHS tapes limits you.

[jman98]

usually_quiet is right, but to add to this post...
When displaying SD video, whatever the source, on an HDTV, I strongly recommend that you NOT set the TV up to just display everything in 16:9. Some people do this because they have a pathological hatred of black bars on the sides of the display for 4:3 video. Stretching 4:3 sources, like VHS recordings to DVD, to 16:9 is going to look like crap. I don't do this a lot, but I've made VHS captures to my PC and then made a DVD out of them and they looked OK on my HDTV. Yes, the lower resolution of VHS source tapes is going to limit you somewhat so don't expect DVD clarity, but some of the DVD recorders have the ability to do remarkable work from VHS sources. It may not necessarily be as bad as you think if you watch these VHS to DVD discs in 4:3. I don't have the Philips model you are asking about, but I have read rave reviews about its ability to do good work with VHS tapes so I think you will be pleased with it. We have a longish thread elsewhere in the DVD Recorders forum on this model if you want to take a look. The current location of this thread is here:
https://forum.videohelp.com/topic341172.html

[usually_quiet]

wabjxo the originator of the referenced thread has removed all of his posts, and most of the useful information along with them. The one he started at the AVS forum is still intact: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=940657

[jman98]

I didn't even look so thanks for pointing that out, usually_quiet. What the hell is up with THAT? That's unfortunately because in my opinion AVS forums suck! I hate their format where they demand that people never start new threads. You have to wade through an awful lot of crap to get any good info on AVS. Well, there WAS good info on the thread here. Even before this, I thought wabjxo was one weird dude anyway, so I guess I can't say I'm totally surprised that he decided to take his ball and go home with it. What an ass.

[ministry88]

Well, I am happy to say I THINK the DVD recorder saga is coming to an end for me! I just bought a floor model Toshiba D-R4 for under $200 from an authorized Toshiba dealer (it was tested for 100% functionality by Toshiba and then repackaged and shipped to the dealer). It comes complete with cables, remote, manual, and original box as well. And it's got a 90 day parts/labor warranty (yeah, it's not a full year or anything but it's better than buying an "as is" unit on ebay from a private owner with no NOTHING!).

I'm pretty happy right now

**THANK YOU to all the members here (esp Samijubal) for helping me on this! It was definitely a group effort!

[usually_quiet]

I didn't even look so thanks for pointing that out, usually_quiet. What the hell is up with THAT? That's unfortunately because in my opinion AVS forums suck! I hate their format where they demand that people never start new threads. You have to wade through an awful lot of crap to get any good info on AVS. Well, there WAS good info on the thread here. Even before this, I thought wabjxo was one weird dude anyway, so I guess I can't say I'm totally surprised that he decided to take his ball and go home with it. What an ass.

I was disappointed to see it also. He removed virtually all his posts in every thread regarding these recorders.

However, I have seen no evidence that there was any spite involved. I think perhaps maintaining multiple threads on multiple sites was just too time-consuming, though I would rather have seen the good thread here locked.

[jman98]

I think you're being too kind here, usually_quiet. I went through some of wabjxo's history and it seems that he has deleted almost every post he ever made anywhere except a few one liners directing people to some place to buy a Magnavox DVD recorder. That does indeed seem to be pure spite involved. Remember, he had to manually edit over 500 posts to remove his comments. A normal person wouldn't bother but a jackass motivated by spite would. Anyway, enough about that dirt bag. If you want to post more on the subject feel free to, but I think I've said enough myself and the original poster seems to be helped already.

[orsetto]

There is a tendency towards excessive brand loyalty on all the various video forums, including this one. While reading the experiences of others is very useful, it is a mistake to assume the well-written posts of one or two people who LOVE their recorders to death is an accurate prediction of what YOU will experience. For one thing, there has never been a standalone recorder that recorded truly 100% DVD-spec discs with zero errors, including the sainted Toshibas. Theres plenty complaints that those fabulous machines created non-standard discs that wouldn't play on any number of other devices, and Toshiba recorder burners are about as reliable as Yugo fuel pumps. So its crucial you take what you read as suggestions and not gospel. This applies to EVERY brand, I am not bashing Toshiba here by any means. I prefer Pioneers myself, but they also are far from perfect, with their own occasional burner issues and repair annoyances. Ditto Panasonics, and the better-quality vintage Sony recorders could send you screaming to a sanitarium with their burner hiccups. Note also that brand personalities can go uphill or downhill: Phillips units were pretty low-end until the current 3576 and Magnavox H2160 developed a decent track record. Pioneers were fantastic, then junk, then got very good again. It changes every six months as new lineups are released.

NO MACHINE AND NO BRAND is superior to all others in every way: they all have their own quirks and issues and gotchas, the trick is to find the one most suited to you that you can live with. Extremely high PQ comes at the cost of garbage burners or klunky edit options, reliable burning often goes hand-in-hand with a mediocre PQ or power supply, "easy" timer schedulers often cause obstacles for advanced users: there is no free lunch. And theres no such thing as a DVD recorder thats as durable as a solid VCR: you can realistically expect only two years before their burners die, if that. And remember, blank DVD media gets funkier by the day: the media brand you rely on today might be totally useless in your recorder a year from now when their dye formula changes. The entire DVD-R universe has always been in flux, it has never settled down the way VCRs did, its impossible. These recorders are incredibly useful, and can do things we never dreamed of with VHS, but jump in with both eyes open and realistic expectations. You're already one step ahead in using 8x media: this is much better than any of the current 16x sold at retail and stretches the lifespan of many burners. Stick to 8x media, and half your potential problems with DVD recorders disappear.

[orsetto]

I have no idea whats going on with wabjxo, but we owe the man props for that incredible collection of Phillips/Magnavox info he maintained. I'm sorry to see it go.

[jjeff]

Wow,your right jman98, only blank posts for Wabjxo on VideoHelp I guess I hadn't noticed he hasn't been around for a while.
Did someone tick him off or something?
I didn't always see eye to eye with him on everything but you've got to give him credit for the great job he's done on documenting the Philips and Magnavox DVDRs w/hdds. He was also more than willing to assist in cabling and other issues on any brand.
As Orsetto said every forum has it's brand supporters, Orsetto would be our resident Pio expert while Samijubal would be our Toshiba wiz, Wabjxo was Mr. Philips/Magnavox and I'd reside in the Panny camp. Then there's Mr. Lordsmurf who covers all areas ( probably not Pannys though, don't get him started on Pannys )
I for one will miss Wabjxo but that's just me, I try and take the best from people and ignore the idiosyncrasies, god knows I've got plenty
BTW at AVS some forums are more strict than others. The DVD recorders forum is one of the more lax ones, just don't go starting new threads in the HDTV forums, man a moderator will come down on you in a hurry
And a happy new year to ALL

[ministry88]

Very good points everyone. But I must say even though I'm satisfied I found the Toshiba model I wanted, I'm still disheartened with the whole DVD Recording thing. I still really can't understand why companies, now in 2009, can't figure out how to make a reliable, excellent quality DVD Recorder that is rock solid across the board (even if you have to pay a mint for it). And all of the different formats/dye formulas/manufacturing standards of writable DVD media is enough to make this art lover's (NOT tech lover's!) head spin. I ask you: Is this new DVD recording format truly a step forward? I think it's a toss-up, when you consider all the tech hassles. Too bad George Carlin's gone, as he'd have a field day with all this DVD/HDMI/Upconverting/Progessive scan/Anamorphic/3:2 pulldown/bananfofanana tech stuff that is borderline surreal and certainly chaotic

**But now back to topic: I just had a horrible thought. Will all the blank 8x Verbatim DVD-Rs I bought not work on my new Toshiba D-R4 machine? I read somewhere in the bowels of this site that the Toshiba models of this vintage are notoriously picky about which DVD-Rs they burn to. Sigh. I guess nothing's easy when it comes to choosing a good DVD Recorder

[usually_quiet]

**But now back to topic: I just had a horrible thought. Will all the blank 8x Verbatim DVD-Rs I bought not work on my new Toshiba D-R4 machine? I read somewhere in the bowels of this site that the Toshiba models of this vintage are notoriously picky about which DVD-Rs they burn to. Sigh. I guess nothing's easy when it comes to choosing a good DVD Recorder :cry:

If I had to guess which discs it would accept, I would say that Verbatim DVD-R 8X would be the one most likely to be compatible with that recorder. In general, one sees very few complaints about Verbatim media or TY media, compared to what one sees with other brands.

[SmokieStover]

Regarding the burn quality of the Philips 3576H, I see no problems with Verbatim 16X +R.

Takes about 30 minutes to burn a full disk. They play fine on all my DVD players. Copied one using ImgBurn...97% capacity....took about 6 minutes to write the image to my "C" drive.

Disk scanning seems most useful for confirming bad disk quality after it is first detected by playing or ripping the disk.

Here's the data and an image file from Nero CDSpeed using the last DVD burned:

Nero CD-DVD Speed: Disc Info
Basic Information
Disc type: : DVD+R
Book Type : DVD+R
Manufacturer: : Verbatim
MID : MCC 004 000 (00h)
Write speeds: : 2.4 X - 4 X - 6 X - 8 X - 12 X - 16 X
Blank Capacity : n/a
Extended Information
Layers : 1
Write strategies : 4 X
Disc Status : Closed
Raw Data
Physical Format Information (00h)
0000 - A1 0F 02 00 00 03 00 00 00 24 E3 2F 00 00 00 00 - .........$./....
0010 - 00 00 07 4D 43 43 00 00 00 00 00 30 30 34 00 38 - ...MCC.....004.8
0020 - 23 54 37 12 02 54 6C 02 92 5F 15 15 0B 0B 08 08 - #T7..Tl.._......
0030 - 01 19 1B 0C 0C 0C 0D 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 - ................
0040 - 01 00 38 38 02 2C 5A 1A 05 2E 23 10 04 1E 1D 01 - ..88.,Z...#.....
0050 - 00 00 02 2C 5A 1A 05 2E 23 10 04 1E 1D 01 00 00 - ...,Z...#.......

General Information
Drive: LITE-ON DVDRW LH-16W1P
Firmware: SL08
Disc: DVD+R (MCC 004)
Selected speed: 8 X
PI errors
Maximum: 38
Average: 4.15
Total: 71942
PI failures
Maximum: 2
Average: 0.00
Total: 343
PO failures: n/a
Jitter: n/a
Scanning Statistics
Elapsed time: 9:40
Number of samples: 114511
Average scanning interval: 1.21 ECC
Glitches removed: 1

[KeepItSimple]

Even before this, I thought wabjxo was one weird dude anyway, so I guess I can't say I'm totally surprised that he decided to take his ball and go home with it. What an ass.

A normal person wouldn't bother but a jackass motivated by spite would. Anyway, enough about that dirt bag.

Maybe he got tired of people calling him weird, jackass and dirt bag. I have a Philips 3575 and he helped me a lot. I'm missing him here.

[orsetto]

The Verbatim 8x is so much better and compatible than their current 16x that its not even a contest. It *should* work very well on your Toshiba, but there's a very small chance that it won't. Older Toshibas are rather picky, and there was an occasional hiccup in Verbatim 8x production of slightly-less-compatible-than-usual Verbs. Still I would expect far greater success than you'd get with Verbatim 16x: their early16x was about as good as their 8x, but then superstore consumers began demanding a $25 (then $19.95) price point for a spindle of 100. Verbatim could not maintain its previous standards at that price, so began subcontracting its media to the same crummy company that now makes the abominable TDK discs. Nowadays, 16x Verbatim is like Russian Roulette unless you're burning it on a brand-new PC.

Somewhere around five years ago, there was a seismic shift in how consumers perceive value and what they're willing to spend on any given item. This has turned the entire industry on its head, companies are still reeling from the fallout because all their product cycles depend on a sustained period of higher prices that slowly decline as something becomes a commodity. In this way mfrs can offer a "constant" quality level as prices drop. But one day a few years ago consumer acceptance of this reality vanished, replaced by a "gimme it right now at Wal*Mart pricing" mentality. That's why versatile, high-performance recorders disappeared, why the ones that remain are crude or flaky, why Sony is choking on its BluRay "victory",and especially why 95% of blank media went into the toilet between 2007-2008. The current economy woes only multiplied the trend.

Reliable, idiot-proof consumer recording requires stable media. Its that simple. Since we no longer have easy access to stable media, nearly every recorder becomes flaky and unusable a year or so after purchase when media cheapens beyond its ability to burn. All you can do is stock up on media that is known to be broadly compatible and has not/will not change in pursuit of ever-lower pricing. There are only two of these left: Taiyo Yuden (TY) 8x, which is still made in Japan using the same formula and exacting standards of five years ago, and leftover stock of Verbatim pro-series DataLife 8x. You have to purchase them online, no retail stores carry them because they sell no lower than $30/100. Here and there you may find additional leftover 8x stock from other brands, and this is also very good: Sony 8x and TDK 8x were great. If you want to prolong the durability of your DVD recorder, especially a vintage model, and avoid making coasters, stick to 8x media.

[jman98]

Even before this, I thought wabjxo was one weird dude anyway, so I guess I can't say I'm totally surprised that he decided to take his ball and go home with it. What an ass.

A normal person wouldn't bother but a jackass motivated by spite would. Anyway, enough about that dirt bag.

Maybe he got tired of people calling him weird, jackass and dirt bag. I have a Philips 3575 and he helped me a lot. I'm missing him here.

Or not. For the record I NEVER, not once, said anything bad about wabjxo until he burned his bridges when leaving. And while I did think he was weird before he left, I never posted anything that said so and kept that opinion to myself when he was still here. Whatever his rationale was, I'm not to blame. And yes, I don't apologize for saying negative things about him AFTER what he did here.

[raccerexx]