Not happy with Hi8 to DV capture/conversion results -- Suggestions welcome!

[Hi8 ripper]

First or all, I would like to say that as a newbie, this web site is a tremendous resource and for those who contribute their thoughts and knowledge, they should feel very good that they are helping out so many of us who are still learning the ropes of video production as a hobby or as a profession.

With that off my chest, I will try to describe my dilemma, and hopefully someone with 1st hand experience can guide me in the right direction…

I have a Sony DCR-TRV460 (Digital 8) camera which I purchased new a few years back when my original Sony Hi8 analog camera tape transport died. Like many folks who post to this website we have 25-30 Hi8 Tapes that my wife and I want to convert to the highest quality, lowest loss digital format for archival purposes and future editing projects. Hard Drive Storage is not an issue as I have several Terabytes available for this project. Quality and near-lossless capture is the most important criteria along with on-line accessibility to the files

Our plan was to load our analog Hi8 tapes into the TRV460 and have the camera convert them to DV and then capture them to AVI files via a 1394 cable connected to a 1394 card in my PC running Nero capture S/W.

Unfortunately, we are very unimpressed with the quality of the resulting AVI files from the TRV460 which severely lacks color depth and contrast (colors are not vivid and look washed out, shades of gray are not visible and appear uniformly black). So now we are thinking that the Analog to DV converter chip in the TRV460 is probably not as robust as required for the task at hand (Sony cheaping out?) and perhaps we should purchase an external Analog to DV converter or PC Card that is of semi/professional grade (such as one from Canopus, Edirol, or Data Video) with the intent of feeding it the Y/C video output from the S-video connector on the TRV460 along with the analog audio from the RCA connectors.

My questions are:
• Has anyone had similar problems with using “in-camera” Analog to DV converters, and if so, how did you solve the problem?
• If “in-camera” Analog to DV converters are known for causing such problems with no-work arounds, then what external Analog to DV converters or PC Card has anyone actually tried that produces excellent results (i.e. AVI files that look just as good as the original Hi8 analog image did?)

Many thanks in advance for your guidance!

[redwudz]

You might take a look at the Enosoft DV Processor. It can do real time correction of some of the attributes of the DV stream. I would try that first. It may be as simple as a black level correction. But the Canopus boxes also do a good job.

And welcome to our forums.

[Hi8 ripper]

Hi Redwudz -

Thanks for tip regarding the Enosoft DV Processing S/W!

Yes, it really looks like a great tool that I will seriously consider for post capture processing, however my Hi8 source video looks absolutely perfect when I play it back on the TRV460's LCD camera display and also looks just as good when I directly connect the camera to a CRT Monitor via the camera's S-video input. Hence, I am feeling the need to get a stand alone DV encoder (rather than depending upon the sub-optimal internal encoder in the TRV460) to ensure that the encoder AVI output quality is as close as possible to the pristine quality of my Hi8 source tapes.

So… I am really trying to determine what is the best H/W encoder (S-video to DV) is available for this task **before** applying any signal processing/correction to the video stream (in real-time or in post-capture).

I’d like to keep the cost of the encoder/converter around $200-$300, so I am probably going to purchase the Canopus ADVC-110 unless anyone reading this post has better suggestions or tells me that I am off the mark, or that I may have overlooked something relating to the TRV460 'in camera" encoder that is not obvious for a newbie.

Thanks in advance for your helpful suggestions!

[edDV]

…

I have a Sony DCR-TRV460 (Digital8 ) camera which I purchased new a few years back when my original Sony Hi8 analog camera tape transport died. Like many folks who post to this website we have 25-30 Hi8 Tapes that my wife and I want to convert to the highest quality, lowest loss digital format for archival purposes and future editing projects. Hard Drive Storage is not an issue as I have several Terabytes available for this project. Quality and near-lossless capture is the most important criteria along with on-line accessibility to the files

Our plan was to load our analog Hi8 tapes into the TRV460 and have the camera convert them to DV and then capture them to AVI files via a 1394 cable connected to a 1394 card in my PC running Nero capture S/W.

Unfortunately, we are very unimpressed with the quality of the resulting AVI files from the TRV460 which severely lacks color depth and contrast (colors are not vivid and look washed out, shades of gray are not visible and appear uniformly black). So now we are thinking that the Analog to DV converter chip in the TRV460 is probably not as robust as required for the task at hand (Sony cheaping out?) ...

Hi Redwudz -

Thanks for tip regarding the Enosoft DV Processing S/W!

Yes, it really looks like a great tool that I will seriously consider for post capture processing, however my Hi8 source video looks absolutely perfect when I play it back on the TRV460's LCD camera display and also looks just as good when I directly connect the camera to a CRT Monitor via the camera's S-video input. Hence, I am feeling the need to get a stand alone DV encoder (rather than depending upon the sub-optimal internal encoder in the TRV460) to ensure that the encoder AVI output quality is as close as possible to the pristine quality of my Hi8 source tapes...

Several Issues:

Unfortunately Sony Digital8 and most MiniDV camcorders output analog at 0 IRE black over S-Video instead of USA correct 7.5 IRE. This causes what is known as "crushed blacks" and an over dark TV display unless you compensate 7.5% with the TV brightness control. However, the levels sent out the IEEE-1394 port are correct 16-235 Y and chroma passes color bars at correct levels.

So the next issue is how you are monitoring the DV-AVI? On a direct computer monitor display it will appear dark and low contrast because of gamma and levels differences vs TV (computers use more linear gamma and 0-255 scaling). DV and DVD use identical levels. To properly view DV/DVD on a computer monitor you need to use a good DVD player like Power DVD and properly adjust the display card overlay and monitor to a SMPTE color bar and linearity ramp. The THX Optimizer gets you close.

All of the above is difficult to manage so the best monitoring is back via IEEE-1394 through the camcorder to a monitor adjusted to 0-100 IRE or through a Canopus ADVC-1xx that properly scales 16-235 DV to 7.5-100 IRE S-Video out.

When you do the above you will see that the Hi8 should look good for levels when played on the Digital8 camcorder and identical to video shot on the Digital8. So bottom line, don't trust the computer monitor for levels. Play to the TV instead.

I have a high end Hi8 camcorder (Sony CCD-V5000). When I played these tapes in a Sony TRV-103 Digital8 camcorder, the levels were correct. The main limitation of the Digial8 was inability to play PCM digital audio tracks used in prosumer Sony Hi8s. So, I bought a Canopus ADVC-100 and captured via S-Video and RCA audio.

When you operate the ADVC in 7.5 IRE mode all levels are handled correctly to your TV and to and from DV format. Only limitation for you is you also need a Hi8 playback deck.

If you use the processor, make sure you are monitoring correctly or the result will look poor on a TV.

[Hi8 newbie]

edDV or anyone,

I have similar concerns and am wondering what you suggest. I have 50 2-hour Hi8 tapes that I want to preserve. I purchased a GV-D200 and intended to transfer to DVD using my Tivo Toshiba RS-TX20 DVR DVD Recorder. If I'm going to go thru the trouble of transferring all these I want great quality for all future uses. I'm hoping a "Best Quality" 1 hour mode will be about as good as I could ever notice. True?

One problem I'm having is that my RS-TX20 is not accepting the DV input as it should (something is not right with the DV in), so, unless I figure out how to fix this, I'll need to use S-video, or use a different recorder, such as my laptop. Do you think the GV-D200 will have the same s-video problem with 0 IRE (whatever that is) that you previously mentioned? Given my objective of quality, do I need to use DV, or take another approach?

If I should use a recorder (or recording software) to get DV input (that works) I don't want to spend a lot of time for each tape, but, I've heard that some DVD recording software will automatically add chapter summaries, which would be nice. Again, if I need it, do you have software to recommend and a suggested format to put on the DVD (or should I even consider blu-ray for this archival purpose?)

[edDV]

edDV or anyone,

I have similar concerns and am wondering what you suggest. I have 50 2-hour Hi8 tapes that I want to preserve. I purchased a GV-D200 and intended to transfer to DVD using my Tivo Toshiba RS-TX20 DVR DVD Recorder. If I'm going to go thru the trouble of transferring all these I want great quality for all future uses. I'm hoping a "Best Quality" 1 hour mode will be about as good as I could ever notice. True?

The GV-200 should play Hi8 tapes at correct levels to DV over IEEE-1394. Like most Sony camcorders it will output black at 0 IRE over S-video or composite. Most but not all DVD recorders have an input black level choice. Experiment for correct levels to a calibrated monitor. Use THX optimizer from a DVD or other to set monitor levels.

One problem I'm having is that my RS-TX20 is not accepting the DV input as it should (something is not right with the DV in), so, unless I figure out how to fix this, I'll need to use S-video, or use a different recorder, such as my laptop. Do you think the GV-D200 will have the same s-video problem with 0 IRE (whatever that is) that you previously mentioned? Given my objective of quality, do I need to use DV, or take another approach?

Yes you will have the problem with S-Video or composite. You will need to correct black level 7.5%. You won't have a problem transferring over IEEE-1394.

If I should use a recorder (or recording software) to get DV input (that works) I don't want to spend a lot of time for each tape, but, I've heard that some DVD recording software will automatically add chapter summaries, which would be nice. Again, if I need it, do you have software to recommend and a suggested format to put on the DVD (or should I even consider blu-ray for this archival purpose?)

Most software such as WinDv can be set to scene by scene clip capture. A each timecode you stopped and started a DV camcorder, a scene is created. This won't work from Hi8 tape. Instead you can use "optical" scene detection from a program like Scenalyzer. This just gets you clips. You will need to convert clips into chapters.
http://www.scenalyzer.com/

[Hi8 newbie]

edDV,

Thanks much! What about the encoding? Will 1 hour per 4.7GB Mpeg 2 give me about as good a quality as I will ever need for archiving my Hi8 tapes? How about 2 hours per 4.7GB?

[edDV]

edDV,

Thanks much! What about the encoding? Will 1 hour per 4.7GB Mpeg 2 give me about as good a quality as I will ever need for archiving my Hi8 tapes? How about 2 hours per 4.7GB?

1hr if important to you.