RAID-0 Backup Question

[Gromit137]

Or any RAID backup for that matter. Be patient ... I'm new at this.

I have two 1TB Lacie triple interface drives... for video editing...was going to use one for raw footage... then the other for completed edited video.

Ok, so raid0 separates info into blocks for video speed performance on large files...but no backup safety... but if I back up this RAID drive to a normal non-raid external drive ...say a Maxtor 500gb.... how will I restore the info 'blocks' properly to the separate raid disks enclosed in the Lacie Raid drive ... a new one since the old one failed... if the old one failed. Is this making sense? Do I need to backup to another 2disk raid external unit..and how will it know the separation of blocks on the original drive? I guess to summarize... since a RAID external drive does things differently... how do you back it up...the info has been allocated differently....no?

Thanks in advance

While I'm here... a guy told me to use firewire to (raw footage) computer ...usb2.0 from (completed, edited) computer... to avoid firewire 'clog'. Is this true? If so, which would you use for which? Firewire for 'to'... usb for 'from'?? Or reverse.

[edDV]

Why do you need RAID0? It gets expensive to use RAID1 et.al for recovery. Better to just backup your media to tapes or a separate hard drive.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redundant_array_of_independent_disks

A full up RAID server will set you back 5 figures.

"While I'm here... a guy told me to use firewire to (raw footage) computer ...usb2.0 from (completed, edited) computer... to avoid firewire 'clog'. Is this true? If so, which would you use for which? Firewire for 'to'... usb for 'from'?? Or reverse. "

Are you doing real time editing? If not, scrubbing is usually done on source and firewire is slightly faster so use firewire on source. I use internal drives for >2x faster response vs firewire. External eSATA would be just as fast as internal.

[Nelson37]

The seperation of the data blocks is done internally in the RAID hardware and is totally transparent to the OS. Files on a RAID are backed up the same as any other.

As for the connection, neither. Internal drives are significantly faster. Spending extra money for a Striped Raid for performance and then using it in a Firewire or USB external box is frankly pretty silly.

[Gromit137]

Thanks for the replies. The Lacie drive is a hardware Raid device ... you set the type... raid0,raid1, etc. with a little screw on the case... there are two removable drives inside...

Nelson37... so you're saying the raid feature is useless but then how would someone use these drives... I guess for other settings...slow redundancy??
Would you set the raid drives differently then since speed won't matter... raid1(mirror) or JBOD (just a bunch of drives) which I totally don't understand...???

And just to confirm... I can back up any hardware raid drive info to a basic hard drive (external) and then recover that info back to another working RAID hardware drive...or for that matter...any drive??? Thanks for the confirmation and taking the time with amateurs like me.

[lordsmurf]

RAID-0 is not suggest. It is fairly abusive to drives, and there's a high fail rate when you combine RAID-0 with large video files. We learned that lesson about 6-7 years ago, the hard way.

[edDV]

I'll ask again. Why do you need a RAID? For speed? For backup (half the capacity)?

JBOD means the drives can be addressed separately (No RAID).

And just to confirm... I can back up any hardware raid drive info to a basic hard drive (external) and then recover that info back to another working RAID hardware drive...or for that matter...any drive??? Thanks for the confirmation and taking the time with amateurs like me.

You can't copy directly drive to drive.

You can copy to another disk through the computer. A RAID appears as a single drive. If you are using RAID 1, you already have a backup.

[Gromit137]

Quite honestly, I got a great deal on 2 Lacie 1 TB drives... total of 2TB...each unit has two removable/swappable drives...I'm assuming 500GB each.

http://www.lacie.com/us/products/product.htm?pid=10967


I don't really care whether I use RAID or not but it seems all over the Internet video people agree that you get a very slight speed increase with RAID0 combined with FireWire 800. Others have said the 800 is useless.
I have the expresscard (FW800) so I figured I'll use it.

Just want to know if I should leave drive set to RAID-0 or turn the screw on casing to something else.

edDV... if you had these external drives...and you HAD to use them with a laptop... 250GB...3GB ram...2.53mhz.... which way would you set the hardware... 0,1 or JBOD.?? I'll be using Vegas Pro 8 with 2-4 streams of video. I'm not a pro and not doing anything that needs major work. Just picking scenes from a few camera angles.... prosumer 3CCD PV-GS500.

Oh, the drives come set to RAID-0. The manual says that's best for large files such as video/audio but does state that there will be absolutely no backup safety at all.

[redwudz]

From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redundant_array_of_independent_disks

RAID 0 (striped disks) distributes data across several disks in a way that gives improved speed and full capacity, but all data on all disks will be lost if any one disk fails.
RAID 1 (mirrored settings/disks) could be described as a real-time backup solution. Two (or more) disks each store exactly the same data, at the same time, and at all times. Data is not lost as long as one disk survives. Total capacity of the array is simply the capacity of one disk. At any given instant, each disk in the array is simply identical to every other disk in the array.
RAID 5 (striped disks with parity) combines three or more disks in a way that protects data against loss of any one disk; the storage capacity of the array is reduced by one disk.
RAID 6 (striped disks with dual parity) (less common) can recover from the loss of two disks.
RAID 10 (or 1+0) uses both striping and mirroring. "01" or "0+1" is sometimes distinguished from "10" or "1+0": a striped set of mirrored subsets and a mirrored set of striped subsets are both valid, but distinct, configurations.

Overview of RAID levels from Wikipedia, including JBOD: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_RAID_levels

If you do want RAID, RAID 1 or similar would be a better choice than RAID 0. The more preferable higher RAID levels require more drives to have both redundancy and higher access speeds. Not really practical with your combination of (2 )two drive enclosures without using a separate controller.

[edDV]

RAID 0 offers greater speed but at the cost of catastrophic data loss if either drive fails. The extra speed doesn't help editing much for typical home formats. It does help if you are editing higher bitrate formats or uncompressed SD. It is doubtful a laptop would keep up.

For DV, HDV, AVCHD, etc. a single drive at a time is adequate. These formats play 1x at only ~4MB/s (32 Mb/s). Modern 7200 RPM drives can run sustained at about 50-70 MB/s max. (~400-560 Mb/s) so will benefit from Firewire 800 which runs at about that speed in the real world. The added speed will help file copy and timeline scrubbing. The speed limitation will most likely be the internal laptop drive which is probably 5400 RPM or less.

So, I would run it JBOD (as two separate drives) and make sure a backup exists on tape or separate external hard drive. If you have two of these you might configure one for RAID 0 to test the difference at the laptop. Remember the risk of data loss when using RAID 0. If you see no benefit, it is better to run JBOD. RAID 1 mode would reduce capacity to half.

Those LaCie units are nice drives but the best application would be as a RAID 1 data drive for a desktop or small server.

[Gromit137]

edDV... thanks again for the info. I actually understand. I've had every kind of drive Maxtor/Lacie/Iomega/Fantom fail eventually... Lacie actually was best for me...

so I made a backup of the backup... purchased TWO separate drives for this... in the past

I will try all you mention... if my laptop presents limitations...

would YOU...in this situation... get some 7200 drive (NON-raid) for the editing and use these 2 RAID 1TB drives set on RAID-1 (mirror) for really important backups of vital info... video, family pics, original music, etc. for my desktop and this laptop for that matter... performance speed won't matter at all for that purpose... if one of the Lacie units go's down...I can slide the good RAID-1 drive out of it (they provide that feature) and slide it into the working Lacie to access and re-backup the data...no?

oh, and I do realize each drive's capacity will be cut in half for such a purpose... 500gb each ... but I won't have to make a backup of the backup anymore... each Lacie actually has 2 removable drives inside...

again, you're helping immensely.

oh... so you're saying it's overkill for me to have one drive for the raw source footage and another for the finished editing? One for both is enough?

[Gromit137]

Just ocurred to me... if I do the JOBD you suggest...I could also use ONE of the 500gb drives INSIDE the unit for editing.... the other for a nightly data backup of what I edited. Each disk being independent and removable... will I be protected from drive failure however? ... or is it better to use a completely separate unit for backup safety?

No? I'm I getting this?

[lordsmurf]

Lacie does not make drives -- they use drives from a manufacturer like Seagate or Western Digital. Lacie only makes the enclosures and re-brands it as a single unit, often with a marked-up price to Mac-heads.

If you want backup, do RAID 1 for insta-duplicate writing. Don't waste time and energy copying late at night.

[edDV]

Just ocurred to me... if I do the JOBD you suggest...I could also use ONE of the 500gb drives INSIDE the unit for editing.... the other for a nightly data backup of what I edited. Each disk being independent and removable... will I be protected from drive failure however? ... or is it better to use a completely separate unit for backup safety?

No? I'm I getting this?

RAID 1 does that for you so if you can live with half capacity for edit media, then use RAID 1. For family photos and docs on the other drive I'd use RAID 1 there for sure. That gets you auto backup.

When I edit DV, HDV source, I have backup on the original tape so I see no need to backup again. After I finish editing I keep a master on both tape and hard drive for backup. Now that large hard drives are cheap, it has become practical to use a separate hard drive for backup.

...
would YOU...in this situation... get some 7200 drive (NON-raid) for the editing and use these 2 RAID 1TB drives set on RAID-1 (mirror) for really important backups of vital info... video, family pics, original music, etc. for my desktop and this laptop for that matter... performance speed won't matter at all for that purpose... if one of the Lacie units go's down...I can slide the good RAID-1 drive out of it (they provide that feature) and slide it into the working Lacie to access and re-backup the data...no?

You have two Lacie dual drive units. I'd use one for general data/photo/audio/doc in RAID 1. The other I'd use for editing media in either JBOD or RAID 1 depending on your backup strategy. You should always have a backup of unique camcorder source. Tape based formats provide an auto backup. If you use flash ram or HDD, you need to have a backup strategy. RAID 1 is one way but your disk will quickly fill.

[Nelson37]

I have never liked Raid-1 as a backup strategy.

If you accidentally damage or delete a file, or some program corrupts a file, you get to have two exact duplicates of the bad file.

When one of your hard drives fails due to age and/or normal wear and tear, you then have as your sole backup a second drive of exactly the same age and usage as the first one that died.

Couple that with the near-total incompatiblity of the individual drives of the array with other RAID hardware, even using the same model and manufacturer, to me this induces extra failure points with the added benefit of extra cost and no real redundancy.

[Gromit137]

Nelson37 ... are you saying that if one of the drives in the Lacie RAID-1 Drive fails... the other drive is ONLY accessible with that EXACT Lacie unit that it's inside of ... ??? ... so if that unit itself fails (with or without the drive inside) I'm basically screwed??? That's not a happy situation. Almost makes me want to buy an extra unit and leavie it in the box for future disasters.

(I'm aware of the real time file clone thing... both with corrupt files...accidental deletions...etc...not too much of a concern since with my paranoia, I'll be making additional NON-Raid backups also)


Thanks again to all. I'm starting to see the issues here.
I've joined mozy.com. Should take a couple of weeks for my initial backup ... but it's unlimited. Not video and other large files of course. For those, I'll use external drives.

See my greatest concern has never been a 'real time' back-up.... I'm pretty good at backing up once or twice a day.

Here's my big thing... I keep many files SOLELY on an external drive ... because I shuffle between several computers. I have learned to make totally separate back up of every external drive to another external drive.
Just a month ago one of my Iogear 350gb drives failed. Thank God I have a duplicate drive... same model in fact... it has all my CD software program images on it.

So I merely thought a RAID-1 setup with Lacie would in essence do what I was doing ....only automatically.
But now with all these concerns I'm not so sure.

What do pro video guys do? All that work ... don't they have tons of backup of backup ... just in case of theft or power frying stuff... or whatever?

[edDV]

I've changed my daily backups to a central server recently (currently 2.5 TB over 3 drives). My HP Windows Home Server backs each computer over night. Folders stored on the server can be flagged to duplicate themselves to separate drives for backup. I do this for data, photos and my audio collection. Also anything in the "user" folders gets backed to a separate server drive.

I like auto backup choice at the folder level instead of RAID1 that duplicates everything.

Camcorder video files exist on original tapes + get backed manually to externl project drives so during project work there are 3 copies of original video (tape, external project drive and internal working drive). When I close the project, copies exist on orignal tapes plus project drive.

DVR captured video gets backed to external drives if I want to keep it. Some files are duplicated to the server for active selection.

[Nelson37]

To the OP - almost always and by EXACT that means down to BIOS revision, model, and series and even that is no guarantee as sometimes changes are made within the same model run.

This gets back to that seperation of the data blocks that is transparent to the OS, which is done in the RAID hardware. This is one of those places where you learn that "proprietary" is a bad, bad word.

[Gromit137]

I'm not a pro so be patient... ok, I have my Lacie in JOBD mode ... just separating the unit into 2 individual ... no relationship ... no RAID ... drives... 500GB each.

Now, if the UNIT fails ... will those drives be recoverable ... remember no RAID setup.??

If one of the drives inside fails ... will the other be accessible/ok??

I guess what I'm saying is... if I use the Lacie 1TB unit as a JBOD thingy INSTEAD of two completely separate units (500each) is there a disadvantage ... if I'm NOT using RAID.

Thanks

[edDV]

I'm not a pro so be patient... ok, I have my Lacie in JOBD mode ... just separating the unit into 2 individual ... no relationship ... no RAID ... drives... 500GB each.

Now, if the UNIT fails ... will those drives be recoverable ... remember no RAID setup.??

If one of the drives inside fails ... will the other be accessible/ok??

I guess what I'm saying is... if I use the Lacie 1TB unit as a JBOD thingy INSTEAD of two completely separate units (500each) is there a disadvantage ... if I'm NOT using RAID.

Thanks

It should be. Best way to check is pull one drive and see if the other is accessible.

I'm assuming NTFS formatting. Maybe formatted for Mac. You should be able to access the raw drive with PATA or SATA.

[Nelson37]

In my professional opinion, based on 20 years of experience, the answer is "maybe". They should work as long as configured as ordinary drives but there is no guarantee. Only way to be sure is to hook one up internally and test it to make sure, as suggested.

You would need to make reads and writes with both connections and ensure that data is fully accessible each way. The drives are standard drives and will certainly function mechanically either way. Whether or not you will need to format when changing connection is the critical question. Some external enclosures, and especially those with RAID hardware, do some funky things with drive geometry which can make them non-compatible with standard controllers, requiring a re-format.

EDIT: Just got some new information from dealing with a crashed RAID controller. This is a SCSI unit, different hardware, but the main concept is the same. The tech told me that most, if not all, SCSI RAID controllers, EVEN IN SINGLE DRIVE MODE, would produce a drive that is unreadable by a standard controller.

Some RAID controllers have a standard controller as a by-pass, some do not and handle single drives as a RAID with only one drive. The fundamental problem with these controllers is that they lie to the rest of the hardware about the layout of the hard drive, causing the compatibility issue.

Without seeing your hardware, I would have to change my above opinion to "probably not". Test it.