Selecting a video camera for the web

[thurnau]

I want to make some instructional videos for my website and need to buy a camera. I am looking for something that uses SD card media. I heard I need 30 frames per sec. Other than that I really don't know what type of camera I should be looking at. Standard definition? High Definition? Consumer, Prosumer? lower cost pro cameras? Will a $300, $500, $2000, and $4000 video cameras produce different results once optimized for the web?

[Soopafresh]

How big (the dimensions) do you want the output to be on your website and how much do you have to spend?
Will you be filming inside or outside? Will you be walking as you shoot?

Buy from a reputable online vendor, like BHPhoto.com

These 3 cameras use SD cards:

Very low end (but not bad at all) Samsung MX20 (around $200)
http://www.vimeo.com/1908856

http://www.vimeo.com/1908856

Low end: Canon FS100 SD/SDHC Card Camcorder (around $300)

Footage from the FS100 transfered to Web Video: http://www.vimeo.com/videos/search:Canon+FS100/sort:newest/format:thumbnail

Higher End: Canon HF100 AVCHD camcorder (around $600)

http://www.vimeo.com/videos/search:Canon+HF100/sort:newest/format:thumbnail

What HF100 review: http://www.vimeo.com/2471552

You need at least a Core2 Duo computer to edit HD quality video.

Good tripod for little $ http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/146249-REG/Velbon_VMATE607F_Videomate_607_Tripod_with.html

[thurnau]

I have a long background with taking pictures over the years. I am a Nikon man, I hated Canon's SLR cameras for ergonomics and menu control settings. Are Canons a lot better than panasonics? Is white balance easy to set? How do I get the right exposure? Do you use a light meter? Thank you for the tripod link. I just purchased a higher end manfrotto http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/253564-REG/Bogen_Manfrotto_475B_475B_Tripod_Legs_Black_.html which is for product photography.
I do not have a budget, but I do not want overkill. I can spend 500-4000. But I didn't want to throw the company's money away either. It is for my work's website so the company will write it off. I noticed a lot of distortion when someone moved quickly in the links with children. The one from the auto show looked great.

[Soopafresh]

The HF100 has auto white balance as do all of the HD Camcorders these days. As you know, how you light the scene is a huge factor, although you can configure these camcorders to shoot in specific "exposure modes" or manual exposure in order to bypass auto settings.

I forgot about the new Canon 5D MKII camera/camcorder which allows you to attach 35mm lenses to it. Incredible quality. This is a lot more like a conventional 35MM camera (shallow DOF, specific exposure settings). $2700 street price

http://www.vimeo.com/videos/search:5D%20MKII

Check out the DOF on this clip: http://www.vimeo.com/2513659



If you're willing to record to hard drive, the Canon HG20 and HG21 record at true 1920x1080 progressive.

You can get very high quality for little money these days. If you can afford 2 of the same camera, then you can shoot from 2 different angles.

Factor in the cost of lighting, shotgun or wireless Lavaliere mics, additional steadicam type devices, and you quickly reach your budget limit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6HDUDbeEJw

http://www.glidetrack.com/information.htm

[minidv2dvd]

you might want to consider how much bandwidth your company wants to use for serving video. a single HD video upload needs at least 2mbps. do you guys have multiple t-1 or oc-1 connected servers? if not low bandwidth flv is probably your best bet and it's not going to look great. standard miniDV cams can provide a plenty good enough source for flv.

[thurnau]

I use an expodisc for custom white balance. I wanted to make sure that it is possible to set it for accurate lighting.

I shot a video with my Nikon D90 which came out great, but it only records at 24 fps, and I read that you need to record at 30 fps in order to compress it right.

I intended on using halogen work lamps for lighting which may run up to 300, but I do own some high quality air cushioned light stands on casters if I needed to buy any light heads. They are used with strobes. I planned on shooting the video and then adding sound later. I do not know if that is difficult to do as a beginner. Maybe it is easier all at once.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=search&A=search&Q=&sb=bs%2Cupper%28d...t=Submit+Query
I was interested in either of these two. But I can spend more if it will make the video better. Or will the 24 fps edit well? Or is canon superior to panasonic?

[edDV]

Your streaming objective needs better definition.

Regardless if possible it is better to master for the future with semi-pro but this gets expensive.

I'm most familiar with older Sony DV/HDV and newer Canon HDV cams. Both have manual exposure/white balance controls but the Canon's entry models are at far lower price points with equal quality. Volume in this case followed pricing strategy. Canon is the rebel here. Experiment with them.

[Soopafresh]

I shot a video with my Nikon D90 which came out great, but it only records at 24 fps, and I read that you need to record at 30 fps in order to compress it right.

Not quite the case. You do have to carefully plan your shots at 24p, however. You must pan slowly, otherwise your images tend to "strobe". See example: http://www.macgregor.autoecstasy.com/redlab/contenido/curso/paneo2.mpg

The Panasonics are comparable to the Canons, but more expensive. The Panasonics record at lower bitrate (17Mbps vs 25 on the HG20). It's a bit easier to find peripheral devices for the Canons (3rd party batteries, wide angle lenses, etc). And the support "community" is large with the Canon brand.

And yes, as minidv2dvd mentioned, the bitrate in which you transcode to h264 flash for web viewing is important for final output quality

Have a look at the same clip transcoded at different bitrates: http://09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0-forever.com/temp/index.php?sort...ame&order=desc

[edDV]

thumau.

OOps I was writing while you posted.

You talk like you are shooting for DVD release. Please explain the immediate need. Also, are you anticipating a higher end release later?

[thurnau]

I am posting how to use a product for the website. On one instance I will shoot how to spray paint with blending techniques for car paint, how to paint a car, and other simple things. I do not need super high def for a 60" plasma for home TV, but without some good definition the technical details may not show. well. The 2 video links taken with two different canon's looked to be good in size and close enough to the resolution. Competition looks like this, http://www.duplicolor.com/training/autospray_training.html and I would be embarrassed to display this quality.

I have a lot of camera experience, but no real video experience. I have no idea which format it should be optimized as like flash or wmv. Which pixel size, or what bit rate, or resolution for broadband and lower speeds.

I do want to make internal training DVD's, but the purchase of this camera is intended to shoot videos to be streamed online. I do not expect to shoot a higher end release, unless there is a bigger breakthrough in consumer bandwidth.

[Soopafresh]

Whatever camera you use, make sure you put a UV / Skylight filter for the front of you camera lens so you don't get any aerosol paint on it.

You can make very high quality h264 flash videos for the web if you transcode your footage properly.

http://somestuff.org/flashAVC/flvplayer.php?moviename=movies/imax_mute-x640y368.mp4

or

http://somestuff.org/flashAVC/flvplayer.php?moviename=movies/hvx200_raw_0013EO_mute-x960y544.mp4

[edDV]

Well the normal rule is to shoot and edit for the highest quality display you target (e.g. a large TV at a trade show?) Then filter and encode for lower quality release. HD is nice for a big display but is not needed for compressed streaming. MiniDV is good enough.

Exposure for TV is similar. First control black and white levels since video has compressed dynamic range vs. film and clips off at peak white (ugly). Film is more forgiving.

For big screen display, video detail is in the dark grays due to TV gamma.

Now that HD camcorders have become cheap, there is more reason to start there. Some of the Canons have high end manual exposure control features*. HDV (e.g. HV30) is much easier to process than AVCHD.


* In the past MiniDV era, manual white balance and manual audio control were withheld from consumer models and reserved for $2K up prosumer camcorders. This changed recently with Canon leading the charge with the revolutionary HV20 HDV model which was introduced at $1200 and now is ~$650 street. The HV30 is similar.

[thurnau]

In testing with the D90 when a person with a dark blue shirt walked across the frame, the picture lightened and darkened. It was like auto exposure bounced around in the middle of shooting. I do have a light meter. I use a light meter and white balance religiously. I just don't know how exposure is set on a camcorder. The trade show possibility is likely. We are going to be in a car show this year without videos, but maybe next year. Thank you for bringing up that possibility.

[thurnau]

Whatever camera you use, make sure you put a UV / Skylight filter for the front of you camera lens so you don't get any aerosol paint on it.

You can make very high quality h264 flash videos for the web if you transcode your footage properly.

http://somestuff.org/flashAVC/flvplayer.php?moviename=movies/imax_mute-x640y368.mp4

or

http://somestuff.org/flashAVC/flvplayer.php?moviename=movies/hvx200_raw_0013EO_mute-x960y544.mp4

I want something about that quality or less for streaming. Because I do not have enough experience, I do not know what is reasonable. Having too big of a file won't buffer well, and people will get frustrated. Too little of a file and then it cheapens the product. Can or should a 24fps camera be used? or should I look into testing the canons?

[Soopafresh]

The D90 does video capture at up to 1280 x 720 (720p) 24 fps with mono sound. However, it can take some nice looking video. The DOF looks great and the color reproduction is amazing. It beats almost every consumer grade camcorder in that respect. I have no idea what the built in mic sounds like. Are you just doing voiceovers in post, or is there going to be dialogue during shooting? Look at some wireless lav mics: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYlhDGrw_eA&fmt=18

The fact that it shoots at 24p shouldn't be an issue with encoding to web video, as long as you don't do any sudden movements.

An example of the D90 panned too quickly: http://www.vimeo.com/1945079 . A lot of camcorders do this, it's called "rolling shutter".

The D90 also suffers from "stair stepping" (aliasing) which needs to be fixed after the fact: (this would be a deal breaker for me if I was shooting a lot of detailed close-up work)

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=149663&page=5

Read an interesting review:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=146661

Any decision you end up making (as is true in life) will have advantages and disadvantages. As impressive as some of the features of the D90 camera are, it's a still motion camera which happens to do video. I think your post production woes will be less with the HF10 or the higher resolution HG20 and HG21 (which has great color reproduction as well). http://www.vimeo.com/2506630

Getting the balance of quality to file size for the final product will require some trial and error before you find the best mix. It'll take a good portion of the day for tests and more tests. You'll figure it out.

[thurnau]

You really can't move around at all with the D90. http://www.nikonwatch.com/2008/09/23/d90-movies-look-like-jello-oh-no/ While I agree with the color, it can look like jello if you go from left to right. I only planned on doing voice overs in post production.

Also I may be moving from left to right across the frame if I do a close up of spraying a fender or panel. The camera should remain stationary. Is that going to be a concern?

[thurnau]

I had the opportunity to play with a FH10 and a FH11 at best buy. Their camcorder selection is quite limited. One thing I noticed is that all the buttons for important settings are hidden. I could not find a delete button to get rid of the previous recordings that ate up all the space on the hard drive to test it out. Is there another camcorder that puts more of the buttons on the camcorder and less hidden levels deep in a menu?

[zoobie]

I wouldn't dismiss a camera simply because you are unfamiliar with it...
I bought one 2 years ago and still haven't found the time to experiment with all it's features...

[videdit]

For making instructional video, the features you need most is manual exposure, and manual white balance. If you plan to use the camcorder to record audio, then manual audio level control may also be useful.

An SD camcorder would work fine. However, it may look smarter (to your boss) to buy a HD camcorder for future proof.

If you can borrow a camcorder somewhere, it would be helpful to produce a test video from beginning to end before you buy a camcorder.

Here is a web site that rates camcorders:
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/ratings.php
I would also check users ratings from various sites.

[Soopafresh]

Is there another camcorder that puts more of the buttons on the camcorder and less hidden levels deep in a menu?

There's not a lot of real estate on the newer consumer level camcorders, so controls are going to be menu driven.

The next step up will give you buttons, lotsa buttons.

Canon XH A1



Panasonic HVX 200



Sony EX1

[edDV]

Those cams are way overkill for the task.

You may like this HVRHD1000U at half the price. It is essentially a "professionaly styled" consumer technology HDV camcorder that has upgraded mic, lens and viewfinder.
http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/micro-hdvsite/cat-broadcastcameras/product-HVRHD1000U/

[Soopafresh]

My arm's getting tired just looking at those cameras

[thurnau]

Those cams are way overkill for the task.

You may like this HVRHD1000U at half the price. It is essentially a "professionaly styled" consumer technology HDV camcorder that has upgraded mic, lens and viewfinder.
http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/micro-hdvsite/cat-broadcastcameras/product-HVRHD1000U/

Is there one like this that doesn't take a tape?

[edDV]

Yes, look above at XDCAM-EX and also the HVX-200 Panasonic. Be prepared for your boss to go through the roof at the cost of pro flash media. Probably get you fired. I would.

Trust me, for instructional video production on a budget, HDV is the best option. Those other cams are for high volume workflow TV news production or commercial HD release. Tape gives you an instant backup. You just need to cap to hard drive and from then on you are dealing with files. Less compressed HDV MPeg2 is much easier to work with than AVCHD or other flash formats.

You can do most of the requirement with an HV30 with pro audio enhancements. The Sony HVRHD1000U is next best then the Canon XH-A1. All are HDV.

You also need to budget for everything else (e.g. lighting, camera support, microphones, audio, editing, monitors, etc.).


PS: You started by flashing alot of money. You could get the job done with used prosumer DV camcorders like the Sony PD-150/170 which have all the pro audio features built in. I've seen low hour models available under $1500. Avoid consumer cams unless you are dubbing audio separately.

[minidv2dvd]

how about the 3 cmos chip hdr-fx7? better video, maybe worse audio?

i kind of like the look of the 1000u though, pretty oldschool vhs style body.

[edDV]

how about the 3 cmos chip hdr-fx7? better video, maybe worse audio?

i kind of like the look of the 1000u though, pretty oldschool vhs style body.

The Sony HDR-FX7 is a direct competitor to the Canon XH-A1. I prefer the Canon for my needs. Check the reviews. Both support pro audio mics which you will need.

PS: The market for the 1000u is wedding videographers that wanted a more pro looking cam than the Sony consumer HDV line. They wanted something more pro to justify what they were billing. It was an HDR-HC7 cosmetic job. Pro audio support was lacking.
http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/b2b/broadcast_production/release/31159.html
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Sony-Drops-the-Bottom-on-Pro-HDV-Camcorders-with-...00U-33224.htm#

[thurnau]

You also need to budget for everything else (e.g. lighting, camera support, microphones, audio, editing, monitors, etc.).

PS: You started by flashing alot of money. You could get the job done with used prosumer DV camcorders like the Sony PD-150/170 which have all the pro audio features built in. I've seen low hour models available under $1500. Avoid consumer cams unless you are dubbing audio separately.

I do not recall by starting out flashing a lot of money. That is not my intention here, and I definitely do not want to offend anyone that is willing to help point me in the right direction. I wanted to know where to draw the line with what is reasonable for my projects. For instance if I spend 300 on a camera will get give me the end result of a 4,000 camera when it is all over with? I do not want to spend more than I need to, but I do not want to skimp and have to buy two cameras realizing the first one isn't good enough. Being a photographer and webmaster before learning video I am used to the important controls are made into buttons.

I used a low end consumer sony standard definition bought for 300 a year ago which I bought for my wife who never once used it and I was unhappy with the result. I did not get into editing it yet for practice. Getting the media into the computer from a tape was not as fun as using a camera sd card. How will I get instant gratification of shot media?

I will add sound later, or that is my goal. Maybe interview style may work in combination with added in sound. I would be happy with a consumer or pro model. I do not know what a mic costs, but the rest of the equipment is already company owned or inexpensive.

I seriously considered hiring someone to work the video end. My friend hired out someone that works for a news channel locally and he paid him over well over a thousand dollars for 30 seconds of film editing and sound included. The nature of this video requires a lot of patience as we will need to see what works on film and what won't. We want a series of videos so I can't guess as to what it would cost to keep him around for a few weeks to a couple of months.

I just want to let all of you know that I appreciate your help and patience with me. This forum happens to be the best place I have come across.

[edDV]

I too like accessible exposure controls. That's not available for consumer cams that default to auto white balance and auto exposure. Also auto gain control (AGC) for audio. You will learn to hate AGC.

SD flash is about 25th priority after you discover all the other problems. I suggest you run a test project front to back to understand the issues. Use your wife's cam.

How will you do sound later? ADR? No lip sync? That is tough and requires actor skill.

Interview with non sync audio? Try it first. Remember the 60 minutes mic boom guy has time code sync on that separate audio.

I predict you will discover the priority issues aren't the camcorder but lighting for exposure, audio sync and audio quality. This you learn by doing.

Next comes encoding for the web. Basic rule is quality into an encoder gets quality out but this must be weighed by budget reality.

[thurnau]

I think that is pretty good advice edDV. Worrying about the media type made me blind to more important issues which I have not yet encountered.

For voice over there was going to be a guy with his back turned to the camera painting something. As the guy is painting the parts a narrator explains what is going on. Mainly because the only angle that can view what you are painting requires the guy to have his back turned. For audio with a person presenting the product and speaking to the camera is what I have not yet figured out.

[lordsmurf]

What Nikon body are you currently using? That will tell me what sort of expectations and experience you might have.