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  1. No flickering here using MPC HC with your 25fps AVI (or your first one, actually). But it did flicker when playing his VOB at the same place (Sony text and the clothing on the statue) using the same player at default settings. His VOB didn't flicker using the VLC player, also at default settings. I didn't test his VOB in my standalone, but I've tested many before and they don't flicker when played by my Oppo to the Sony HDTV.

    Personally I wouldn't attach much, if any, importance to how it looks when played in a software DVD player. But he also says it flickers when played in his standalone - at least some of his earlier ones do. Not sure about this one.

    As for your shakey AVI, that's with the wrong field order, right? His flickers for me something like that, but with about a tenth of the movement. His problem isn't caused by encoding using the wrong field order, I don't think.
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  2. Member dzsoul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jagabo
    Originally Posted by dzsoul
    does 23.976 FPS avi's or even mp4's make flickering DVDs?
    I'm still not sure exactly what you mean by flicking. Did you try what I suggested -- turn off the Bob deinterlacer in your player (or MPEG2 decoder)?
    after i make a DVD out of the avi using FAVC, sometimes, i get a shaky video result.

    Originally Posted by jagabo
    Do you find this Xvid flickery?

    test.avi

    That file and your VOB file look the same on my computer.

    Or are you talking about the slight flickering just before that sequence where the camera is pulling back? The lines on the base do flicker a bit there but that's a resizing issue.

    <edit>
    Oops, I just noticed that VirtualDubMod thought the VOB was 29.97 fps when it was really 25 fps. A 25 fps version:
    test25.avi
    </edit>
    neither showed shakiness.
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  3. I added one more video to the last message. Is that the type of shakiness you see?

    Originally Posted by dzsoul
    after i make a DVD out of the avi using FAVC, sometimes, i get a shaky video result.
    Watching on your computer or on TV?
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  4. Member dzsoul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by manono
    No flickering here using MPC HC with your 25fps AVI (or your first one, actually). But it did flicker when playing his VOB at the same place (Sony text and the clothing on the statue) using the same player at default settings. His VOB didn't flicker using the VLC player, also at default settings. I didn't test his VOB in my standalone, but I've tested many before and they don't flicker when played by my Oppo to the Sony HDTV.

    Personally I wouldn't attach much, if any, importance to how it looks when played in a software DVD player. But he also says it flickers when played in his standalone - at least some of his earlier ones do. Not sure about this one.

    As for your shakey AVI, that's with the wrong field order, right? His flickers for me something like that, but with about a tenth of the movement. His problem isn't caused by encoding using the wrong field order, I don't think.
    never tried to burn this on a DVD because i know it will shake on my TV. and recently i've tried encoding a 23.976FPS .mp4 file and it's also shaky!

    The two avi of jagabo didn't show any shakiness for me.

    EDIT

    Originally Posted by jagabo
    I added one more video to the last message. Is that the type of shakiness you see?

    Originally Posted by dzsoul
    after i make a DVD out of the avi using FAVC, sometimes, i get a shaky video result.
    Watching on your computer or on TV?
    ooops. sorry didn't notice that. wait....i'll try that one...

    EDIT #2


    Originally Posted by manono
    As for your shakey AVI, that's with the wrong field order, right? His flickers for me something like that, but with about a tenth of the movement.
    Tried the shakey and manono is right. The shakiness is the same but jagabo's shakey avi is much faster.
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  5. My shakey AVI was a simple bob deinterlace of the progressive frames slowed down to 30 fps to make the shake more obvious (60 fps bob may not look very shakey on an LCD monitor because of the slow cell switching time).

    dzsoul, try using a player like MPCHC or VLC. I think your shakiness will go away (turn off the bob deinterlacer).
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  6. Member dzsoul's Avatar
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    i have MPC and it shows shakiness. anyway, my concern only is that it will not shake to a standard TV and standard DVD player.
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  7. Member Ethlred's Avatar
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    The problem I see in the whole process is that you started with a 25 frame source and converted to 30 frame or perhaps it was left at 25 and Media Info can't figure it out.

    The key though is that the original source was FILM and therefor was 24 frames. The audio seems to have been run through a filter to maintain the original frequency but I can't tell from the intro. Often the 24 to 25 frame conversion changes the frequency of the audio.

    The correct way to do what you want is to FIRST fix the AVI by changing the frame rate to 23.976 and converting to audio to match. There is no need to reincode the video in changing the frame rate The audio will need to to have the playing time changed to match and a filter may be needed to keep the frequency if that was also done when the original 24 frame source was converted to 25 frames. If the sound seems a little high pitched then you only need to change the time. That intro seemed right to me but its too short for me to tell by ear. Its likely you will need to maintain the frequency while changing the time.

    Sometimes 24 to 25 frame conversion is done by duplicating on frame in 24. The dup will need to be removed. Just step through the original and try to see if there are regular duplicate frames. I have yet to run into a case like that myself.

    That will result in a correct 23.976 source to convert to DVD where progressive would be the correct choice. The player can then covert to interlace if needed or shown at progressive if both the player the monitor can handle the progressive source.

    Warning I haven't converted AVI to DVD but I have converted 25 frame AVI to 23.976 AVI because the high pitched voices bugged me.

    Ethelred
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  8. Member dzsoul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Ethlred
    The problem I see in the whole process is that you started with a 25 frame source and converted to 30 frame or perhaps it was left at 25 and Media Info can't figure it out.

    The key though is that the original source was FILM and therefor was 24 frames. The audio seems to have been run through a filter to maintain the original frequency but I can't tell from the intro. Often the 24 to 25 frame conversion changes the frequency of the audio.

    The correct way to do what you want is to FIRST fix the AVI by changing the frame rate to 23.976 and converting to audio to match. There is no need to reincode the video in changing the frame rate The audio will need to to have the playing time changed to match and a filter may be needed to keep the frequency if that was also done when the original 24 frame source was converted to 25 frames. If the sound seems a little high pitched then you only need to change the time. That intro seemed right to me but its too short for me to tell by ear. Its likely you will need to maintain the frequency while changing the time.

    Sometimes 24 to 25 frame conversion is done by duplicating on frame in 24. The dup will need to be removed. Just step through the original and try to see if there are regular duplicate frames. I have yet to run into a case like that myself.

    That will result in a correct 23.976 source to convert to DVD where progressive would be the correct choice. The player can then covert to interlace if needed or shown at progressive if both the player the monitor can handle the progressive source.

    Warning I haven't converted AVI to DVD but I have converted 25 frame AVI to 23.976 AVI because the high pitched voices bugged me.

    Ethelred
    what? you said im going to make it 23.976FPS but you talked about how to make 23.976FPS to 25.
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  9. Start MPCHC. Go to View -> Options -> Internal Filters. Under Source Filter make sure MPEG PS/TS/PVA is enabled. Under Transform Filters make sure MPEG 2 Video is enabled. Close MPCHC. (This is to make sure you are using MPCHC's internal MPEG video reader and decoder, not directshow filters which may work differently.) Restart MPCHC and play your VOB file with it. If it is shaking right click on the video window and select Filter -> MPEG 2 Video Decoder. In the Deinterlacing section set Weave instead of Bob or Auto. There should now be no shaking.

    If your TV has the same shaking problem -- what type of TV is it? A CRT? An LCD or plasma TV? And what type of cable are you using between the DVD player and the TV? Is it na upscaling DVD player?
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  10. Originally Posted by jagabo
    I think your shakiness will go away (turn off the bob deinterlacer).
    In my case, it was on Auto. Setting it for Bob made it much worse - about like your Shakey AVI. Setting it for Weave got rid of the flicker. But weave is useful only for progressively encoded DVDs or videos. Hard telecine or true interlace will look horrible.

    That still doesn't explain, though, why some of his DVDs have the same flicker on his interlaced tube TV set. I'm not convinced this one will look bad until dzsoul actually tries. The problem with other DVDs converted from AVI could be a lower source resolution which, when upsized to 720x480, can't resolve fine lines so you get aliasing.
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  11. Member dzsoul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jagabo
    Go to View -> Options -> Internal Filters. Under Source Filter make sure MPEG PS/TS/PVA is enabled. Under Transform Filters make sure MPEG 2 Video is enabled. Close MPCHC. (This is to make sure you are using MPCHC's internal MPEG video reader and decoder, not directshow filters which may work differently.)
    [using my vob file, the one i uploaded] after doing this it seems the shaking was gone, but the "a sony pictures entertainment...blabla" was still blinking a lot.

    Originally Posted by jagabo
    right click on the video window and select Filter -> MPEG 2 Video Decoder. In the Deinterlacing section set Weave instead of Bob or Auto.
    after this the blinking was gone.
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  12. Member Ethlred's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by dzsoul
    what? you said im going to make it 23.976FPS but you talked about how to make 23.976FPS to 25.
    No. I said you started with a 25 frame AVI that was made from a 24 frame film. I said you should convert it back to 23.976. At no time did I say to convert a 25 frame to a 25 frame.

    Now to go over it again. The original source was film. Film is shot at 24 frames. With NTSC DVDs that is usually made into 23.976 progressive but some are interlaced at 29.970. Either way a well done AVI will be converted to 23.976 from an NTSC DVD.

    PAL is 25 frames and it used to be that the film was simply sped up to 25 and that raised the soundtracks pitch. Often the soundtrack has the frequency maintained these days so that Clint Eastwood for instance doesn't sound like a girl. Or sopranos going into the ultrasound range.

    I think the AVI came from Europe since it was 25 frrames. The sound seemed to be the right pitch but I can't be sure from that clip.

    For a PAL DVD it should be encoded at 25 frames progressive and leave the sound alone.

    For an NTSC DVD the AVI should be converted to 23.976 first which can be done without re-encoding and the sound converted to match and then remuxed. Then make the DVD at 23.976 progressive from the resulting 23.976 AVI.

    Ethelred
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  13. Member dzsoul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Ethlred
    Originally Posted by dzsoul
    what? you said im going to make it 23.976FPS but you talked about how to make 23.976FPS to 25.
    No. I said you started with a 25 frame AVI that was made from a 24 frame film. I said you should convert it back to 23.976. At no time did I say to convert a 25 frame to a 25 frame.

    Now to go over it again. The original source was film. Film is shot at 24 frames. With NTSC DVDs that is usually made into 23.976 progressive but some are interlaced at 29.970. Either way a well done AVI will be converted to 23.976 from an NTSC DVD.

    PAL is 25 frames and it used to be that the film was simply sped up to 25 and that raised the soundtracks pitch. Often the soundtrack has the frequency maintained these days so that Clint Eastwood for instance doesn't sound like a girl. Or sopranos going into the ultrasound range.

    I think the AVI came from Europe since it was 25 frrames. The sound seemed to be the right pitch but I can't be sure from that clip.

    For a PAL DVD it should be encoded at 25 frames progressive and leave the sound alone.

    For an NTSC DVD the AVI should be converted to 23.976 first which can be done without re-encoding and the sound converted to match and then remuxed. Then make the DVD at 23.976 progressive from the resulting 23.976 AVI.

    Ethelred
    what software can you suggest?

    Sorry guys maybe you are sick of this but thanks. :P :P
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  14. Member Ethlred's Avatar
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    VirtualDUB will convert the AVI to 23.976 with no reencoding of the video.

    I can't remember what I used to handle the audio. I just downloaded Audacity as I still have at least one more video that needs this kind of conversion. I think I used Belight the last time. However your source was AC3 so you would need something that handle that.

    I have had to reload WindowsXP since I last did this and I still haen't reinstalled everything I used to use. Don't even remember all the tools I had.

    Better choice would be to buy the video. No loss of quality, no funky conversions, and Stan the Man will get some more money to give to his heirs.

    Ethelred
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  15. Originally Posted by manono
    That still doesn't explain, though, why some of his DVDs have the same flicker on his interlaced tube TV set.
    Interlaced CRT TVs always flicker with high contrast, sharp, horizontal edges. It's the nature of the beast.
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  16. Member dzsoul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Ethlred
    VirtualDUB will convert the AVI to 23.976 with no reencoding of the video.

    I can't remember what I used to handle the audio. I just downloaded Audacity as I still have at least one more video that needs this kind of conversion. I think I used Belight the last time. However your source was AC3 so you would need something that handle that.

    I have had to reload WindowsXP since I last did this and I still haen't reinstalled everything I used to use. Don't even remember all the tools I had.

    Better choice would be to buy the video. No loss of quality, no funky conversions, and Stan the Man will get some more money to give to his heirs.

    Ethelred
    Worked it out last night. and yeah, i made it 23.976FPS with virtualdub then got the audio from another file (actually i have two files of this movie but i like this one better because it is of much higher quality) then eventually made it into a DVD using FAVC. And there is no "shaking" anymore!

    From now on i'd better be avoiding PAL2DVD conversions...
    Thanks a lot dudes!
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  17. There must be a problem with you DVD player or HDTV and 3:2:3:2:2 pulldown.
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  18. There must be a problem with your DVD player or HDTV and 3:2:3:2:2 pulldown.
    Since he never tried the 25->29.97fps one on his standalone, I'm not convinced that's the cause. He said only some of his conversions have the flickering. I'm guessing this is one of the good ones. I could easily be wrong, though; we'll never know.

    And he doesn't have an HDTV, just a CRT interlaced tube set.
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  19. Member dzsoul's Avatar
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    well, if we say, just an example, the 25>29.97fps is shaky on my TV, what could be the cause? and if it's not?
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  20. well, if we say, just an example, the 25>29.97fps is shaky on my TV, what could be the cause? and if it's not?
    If you burn the 25->29.97fps DVD to disc and it displays the shakiness it would prove your DVD player isn't compliant, since most DVD players have no trouble at all with it, and as long as it outputs interlaced 29.97fps there should be no problem. It would prove that what jagabo said ("There must be a problem with your DVD player...and 3:2:3:2:2 pulldown.") was correct. That also assumes your player is outputting 480i. You mentioned earlier something about it being set up for progressive scan, a very bad idea if the display is interlaced.

    If it plays OK, then your problems with the others would have other causes, and not the 3:2:3:2:2 pulldown. I speculated earlier that lower resolution source AVIs could cause it.
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