Quickish Pioneer DVR-460-H-K thoughts: Yay importing

[Bix]

The burner in my Toshiba RD-XS35 went bad so I cashed in my SquareTrade extended warranty and picked up a Pioneer DVR-460-H-K (Canada-only model) from that eBay seller who's always listing them. Thanks to orsetto for the recommendation.

I always saw Pioneer as the best of both worlds: Video quality is on the higher end (and includes a flex/manual/incremental/adjustable mode) plus the build quality is excellent. With the other name brands that were major players as far as DVD recorders with mid to upper price range units, it seems like the other brands have been either one or the other: JVC and Toshiba had the best video quality and features, but were built surprisingly badly. Panasonics are and were built solidly, but the picture quality was iffy (though thankfully including flex mode) while the company annoyingly touted the "high resolution LP mode' as a feature. The Phillips/Magnavox recorders are gaining popularity for having good enough picture quality and being the last American recorders to have hard drives, but they're missing manual/flex/blahblahblah mode which to me is a crucial feature.

Pros:
- Manual (flexible/incremental) recording modes. Doesn't have the cool factor of Toshiba listing the actual bitrates but it's still good, especially in a market where that feature is disappearing.
- Editing features are generally pretty intuitive with minimal manual peaking required.
- Remote has letters assigned to number keys (like on a cellphone) to allow easier title input.
- USB port for a variety of features, including keyboards for easier typing, printers for printing stored photos, and attaching drives and PCs for transferring files.
- Familiar interface if you've owned a Pioneer before.
- XP+ recording mode for HDD, allowing for superior time shifting video quality and real time rate conversion burning.
- Up to 10 hours per disc if you're not into picture quality. In recording off a cable box, the results were decent considering the limitations, upper mid range VCD quality.
- DivX certified.
- Detects program data through input from a digital cable box. I've only seen other recorders able to do this either through the tuner or tied to a system like TVGoS.

Cons:
- No way to record a continuous title across both layers of a dual layer disc, though I'm not sure if any standalone does this.
- Full D1 up to 4 hours but it's not a big deal for me since I've found that nobody other than JVC made really good use of half D1.
- Editing features could be better, as you can't make playlists for anything you intend to burn in DVD Video mode.
- No playing directly from the USB drives.
- It doesn't seem to add set interval chapters when automatically recording to the hard drive. Not a huge problem: I added 5 minute chapters myself by pausing and using the commercial skip options to advance quickly and evenly through the video.
- The automatic chapter setting at scene changes is good in theory but the execution isn't great.
- When played, DVDs made in the recorder sit there, requiring you to press "play" instead of going to the menu or playing the first title.
- No chapter menus. I know that Toshiba's the only one who made recorders with them, but still...
- The "Video Adjust" settings for the different inputs don't actually seem to do anything (unless it's tied to the encoder since I only looked over them on pass-through w/o recording).

Overall, an excellent DVD recorder. While the editing feature set is not at the level of the old Toshiba's (which was really shockingly flexible), it's still pretty solid, and its from a company whose build quality has generally been very reliable.

[orsetto]

Agree with all your points , with a couple of observations:

I always saw Pioneer as the best of both worlds: Video quality is on the higher end (and includes a flex/manual/incremental/adjustable mode) plus the build quality is excellent.

Absolutely: going back to 2003, this has always been the case. Pioneer never led the pack in PQ, but was always at least "good enough", especially when the ruggedness and reliability of the chassis and editing system are added to the equation. Current model Pioneers are within 85% of the JVC DRM100 picture quality, minus the issues that sometimes make that vintage recorder difficult to integrate with some sources. Of course nothing compares to the old XS Toshibas, but they are long out of production and the burners can be a problem, as you've experienced. I have noticed that *playback* from the current Pioneers is noticeably soft: this concerned me until I took the finalized discs and played them in a Panasonic DVD player- they played nice and clear, much better than on the recorder that made them. Yet another confirmation that we shouldn't rely on recorders for critical playback .


Cons:
- No way to record a continuous title across both layers of a dual layer disc, though I'm not sure if any standalone does this. This is typical of most standalone recorders.

- Full D1 up to 4 hours but it's not a big deal for me since I've found that nobody other than JVC made really good use of half D1. True that.

- Editing features could be better, as you can't make playlists for anything you intend to burn in DVD Video mode.
This is not correct: you might be misinterpreting the (rather confusing) instruction book, or have certain oddities in your recordings which are locking out DVD Video copy mode (multiple aspect ratios, copy protected broadcasts, etc). I use the playlist feature constantly and only make DVD Video discs- never a problem.

- No playing directly from the USB drives. This is typical.

- It doesn't seem to add set interval chapters when automatically recording to the hard drive. Not a huge problem: I added 5 minute chapters myself by pausing and using the commercial skip options to advance quickly and evenly through the video. Yes, they should have put auto-chapter option on the HDD, but this feature seems to cause HDD-crashing problems with the recorders that do have it (i.e. Phillips), so perhaps Pioneer excluded it on purpose.

- The automatic chapter setting at scene changes is good in theory but the execution isn't great. Agreed- I never use this, because I always end up erasing the auto-guess chapters and making my own anyway.

- When played, DVDs made in the recorder sit there, requiring you to press "play" instead of going to the menu or playing the first title. Standard authoring result of every recorder except vintage Toshibas.

- No chapter menus. I know that Toshiba's the only one who made recorders with them, but still...

- The "Video Adjust" settings for the different inputs don't actually seem to do anything (unless it's tied to the encoder since I only looked over them on pass-through w/o recording). These settings don't do much on the newer Pioneers, they were more effective on the older pre-2006 Pios. One extremely stupid engineering choice in current Pios is the needlessly mysterious and hidden "easter egg" procedure to access the *playback* video adjustments: you have to have a DVD loaded and set to "pause/still" before the playback adjustment and monitor type selection options become available. I had to re-read the manual three times to suss that one out.

[Bix]

- Editing features could be better, as you can't make playlists for anything you intend to burn in DVD Video mode.
This is not correct: you might be misinterpreting the (rather confusing) instruction book, or have certain oddities in your recordings which are locking out DVD Video copy mode (multiple aspect ratios, copy protected broadcasts, etc). I use the playlist feature constantly and only make DVD Video discs- never a problem.

I was going by the manual. That's good to hear.

- No playing directly from the USB drives. This is typical.

Philips players are able to do this.

- It doesn't seem to add set interval chapters when automatically recording to the hard drive. Not a huge problem: I added 5 minute chapters myself by pausing and using the commercial skip options to advance quickly and evenly through the video. Yes, they should have put auto-chapter option on the HDD, but this feature seems to cause HDD-crashing problems with the recorders that do have it (i.e. Phillips), so perhaps Pioneer excluded it on purpose.

They could add the Toshiba feature of an auto-chapter option being available after recording.

- The automatic chapter setting at scene changes is good in theory but the execution isn't great. Agreed- I never use this, because I always end up erasing the auto-guess chapters and making my own anyway.

You can turn this off in the recording area of initial setup (under "automatic chapters" or something like that).

- When played, DVDs made in the recorder sit there, requiring you to press "play" instead of going to the menu or playing the first title. Standard authoring result of every recorder except vintage Toshibas.

In my experience, Panasonic, Sony, Lite-On, Funai, and some Pioneers (I've seen Pioneer discs from other recorders that do it) off the top of my head go to the menu.

[Seeker47]

I only have the older 640 model, so my comments should be viewed in that light, as there are likely some differences re the 450 / 460.

I have noticed that *playback* from the current Pioneers is noticeably soft: this concerned me until I took the finalized discs and played them in a Panasonic DVD player- they played nice and clear, much better than on the recorder that made them. Yet another confirmation that we shouldn't rely on recorders for critical playback .

Yes, but -- curiously -- I find a few playback options my Pio has that either the Oppo 980 does not offer, or are not as conveniently accessible there, including viewing a specific time index and the bitrate graph. For that reason, I like to do some quick spot checks on DVDs I've made, using the Pio. But it's half a minute here, half a minute there -- not a substantial amount of playback. The discs do exhibit better PQ on the Oppo, not to mention the upscaling options.

Cons:
- No way to record a continuous title across both layers of a dual layer disc, though I'm not sure if any standalone does this. This is typical of most standalone recorders.

I'm guessing you must be referring to direct recording to DVD ? That's something I very rarely do. No problem filling a DL disc with something from the HDD, on the 640. It just has a very low burn speed -- like 2x or so.

- No playing directly from the USB drives. This is typical.

Not sure I follow here. I can play stuff directly off a memory stick on the 640. It's just rather limited in terms of what file types and codecs it will see or support.

- The "Video Adjust" settings for the different inputs don't actually seem to do anything

you have to have a DVD loaded and set to "pause/still" before the playback adjustment and monitor type selection options become available. I had to re-read the manual three times to suss that one out.

That's good to know.

Most of the other items Bix mentioned are not critical factors for me. I've been quite satisfied with the feature set and performance of my Pioneer DVDRs.

[Bix]

Cons:
- No way to record a continuous title across both layers of a dual layer disc, though I'm not sure if any standalone does this. This is typical of most standalone recorders.

I'm guessing you must be referring to direct recording to DVD ? That's something I very rarely do. No problem filling a DL disc with something from the HDD, on the 640. It just has a very low burn speed -- like 2x or so.

The manual doesn't specify. Are you saying that if burning from the HDD to a DL disc it can do a continuous title across both layers?

[orsetto]

[quote="Bix"]

- When played, DVDs made in the recorder sit there, requiring you to press "play" instead of going to the menu or playing the first title. Standard authoring result of every recorder except vintage Toshibas.

In my experience, Panasonic, Sony, Lite-On, Funai, and some Pioneers (I've seen Pioneer discs from other recorders that do it) off the top of my head go to the menu.

I take that back, I should have said typical of most recorders, not all. Although even within Panasonic, Sony, Funai and Lite-On the "auto-play-to-menu" authoring is not consistent: depends on the year and the model. The Funai, Pioneer and JVC machines I've owned all create "just lay there and play dead" DVDs.

No consumer-grade "true" Pioneers have ever offered "auto-play-to-menu" finalization: you might have seen discs burned by the one-off Pioneer 233 or VHS/DVD combo recorders which were actually made by a subcontractor that didn't use Pioneer specs. There were a couple of pricey industrial authoring Pioneer recorders in 2003 that offered the feature, and the DVD/TiVO combo Pioneers of 2003 used the TiVO authoring software. But nine out of ten Pioneers discussed here on VH make DVDs that just sit there until you hit PLAY or MENU. On some players even MENU won't go to the menu screen, you have to hit play first and then menu. This is so annoying I've taken to printing an instruction sheet for any DVD-R I give to family or friends: it avoids them telling me "the DVD is blank". Why the hell all recorder mfrs on all models didn't make "go to menu" finalizing the default is beyond me: yet they still can't understand why DVD recorders never caught on in the USA. Fools.

Versatility in playing media from USB sticks is MUCH better on players than recorders: the recorder mfrs are all so paranoid about copyright lawsuits they tend to limit or cripple these functions on most recorders.

[Bix]

Did the subcontracted recorders still use the Pioneer menu style?

[jjeff]

I think you made a good choice for yourself but let me make a brief comparison to the Canadian Panasonic EH-55 which was still available until early this year:

On a Panny EH-55 if you first record to the HDD you can then burn continuously to a DL disc.
Pannys also don't have the option add automatic chapter marks to the HDD. The Philips 3576 does though and it even lets you choose between a few different time intervals.
All Pannys have the auto start option for DVDs but truthfully I've only used it once. I prefer just top menu.
Pannys have a maximum of only 8 hrs/disc although I really never go over the 6hr speed. I think a LG I tried had like a 12hr speed More like VCD than DVD I thought.

I guess every DVDR mfg. has their good and bad points. One question for you, does Pioneer remember where you left off on every title on your HDD? That is if you played title #3 and got half way through and then went to title #4 and watched that one, if you went back to title #3 would it resume where you left off? Pannys don't and that was my favorite feature on the Philips 3575/6. With the EH-55 I have to right down the counter if I switch to another title and then want to resume where I left off on the first title. A big PIA, IMO.

[orsetto]

The playback placeholder function within various titles on the HDD is occasionally a bit erratic on the Pioneers I've owned. It usually does track where you left off on each individual HDD title, but you need to remember to use the STOP button when quitting the title and be careful to only press it once (pressing STOP twice clears the resume function, just like on a DVD player). If (like me) you developed the very bad habit of jumping from title to title on HDD using the NAV button without hitting STOP in between, the memory sometimes gets confused and resets to the beginning of the title you just exited.

For those who are curious, auto-chaptering on the HDD is a relatively uncommon feature because it can interfere with the editing software in some recorders, causing a hard drive crash, ruining the title, hanging the recorder, or all three at once. There are two basic editing systems used on these machines: "chapter-based" and "section-based". Most recorders are "chapter-based", meaning the chapter points are the focus of the editing software. Trying to edit around auto-inserted chapter points can result in a hang when the recorder thinks your edit will create an "illegal" chapter mark thats too close to the one it auto-inserted. You can work around this trap by following the instruction manual exactly: if you follow the recommended workflow the problem rarely occurs. "Section-based" recorders (like Pioneers) focus their editing software on Point A to Point B decisions, with chapter marks a secondary consideration to the system. These machines are far less likely to trip over themselves during editing, but it still happens: there was a flurry of problem reports when Pioneer introduced auto-insert HDD chapters on the x50 series.

[Seeker47]

The manual doesn't specify. Are you saying that if burning from the HDD to a DL disc it can do a continuous title across both layers?

Yes, it uses up what space is available on the DL disc -- both layers. For example, I recall that the movie "Scarface", which I'd recorded off cable to the HDD, with an approx. running time of 2H:20M, and which I'd calculated in advance and therefore recorded at MN27 speed on the 640, basically filled up the DL blank. Whether or not the Pio treats that as a single title / track -- or several -- I couldn't tell you, without examining the disc. I'll try to find it and let you know, if you're curious.

Versatility in playing media from USB sticks is MUCH better on players than recorders: the recorder mfrs are all so paranoid about copyright lawsuits they tend to limit or cripple these functions on most recorders.

To be entirely fair about this, my Oppo 980 does not do all that much better. There are so many different media files I routinely ran into that would not be recognized and / or would not play on it that I've almost stopped bothering to check them. I've come to the conclusion that a home-brew HTPC well-stocked with various player software is about the only way you can forget about this being an issue. But then it's another full-blown computer to maintain, and one which you need to be able to operate remotely.

[Bix]

The manual doesn't specify. Are you saying that if burning from the HDD to a DL disc it can do a continuous title across both layers?

Yes, it uses up what space is available on the DL disc -- both layers. For example, I recall that the movie "Scarface", which I'd recorded off cable to the HDD, with an approx. running time of 2H:20M, and which I'd calculated in advance and therefore recorded at MN27 speed on the 640, basically filled up the DL blank. Whether or not the Pio treats that as a single title / track -- or several -- I couldn't tell you, without examining the disc. I'll try to find it and let you know, if you're curious.

Please check this. I'm very curious about it.

[highvolumeJP]

Actually the pioneer, ALL models sold in Canada, are far from having a good PQ - Most of them use poor encoders and exhibit blockyness (more blockyness than other DVD recorders) and not necessarily in difficult or low lit scenes only - even at the highest bit rate. I don't know why people praise the pioneers - they are BAD construction from the poor video decoder capture chips used to the encoder itself. As far as the video adjustments - what good is it to have color, tint, sharp, gain adjustments if you can't MONITOR in realtime the results ? I can do that on my ADS IDVD2.0 on my PC realtime, I can even monitor video in realtime as it would be encoded to get a preview. An Old Toshiba I have as input adjustments and I can monitor those in realtime - I would steer clear from Pioneers (all models) - their optical drives tend to break down quickly - and the tech support is subpar. There are times where it is good to be able to choos CBR, VBR CVBR - One of the biggest failures of the pioneers is the encoding - and to see this - try running a slideshow on your PC, with still pictures and video transition effects / wipes - and send the output to your pioneer - ANY bitrate. Notice the blockyness that occurs during scene change / transition - Just as bad as the Panasonic, if not worse. It's strange that the low-end, budget recorders use cheaper chipsets that are better optimized for lower bitrates (and high too) and don't exhibit these behaviors.

[tac7]

Actually the pioneer, ALL models sold in Canada, are far from having a good PQ - Most of them use poor encoders and exhibit blockyness (more blockyness than other DVD recorders) and not necessarily in difficult or low lit scenes only - even at the highest bit rate. I don't know why people praise the pioneers - they are BAD construction from the poor video decoder capture chips used to the encoder itself.

I have a LiteOn 5005, and I agree that its encoder produces better PQ than the Pioneers I have been using (640, 550, 650) when copying VHS tapes. When recording off cable or satellite, most artifacts are due to heavy source compression, not the Pioneer's encoding. Try a higher-quality source, like a non-encrypted DVD, and the Pioneers produce very good PQ.

As far as the video adjustments - what good is it to have color, tint, sharp, gain adjustments if you can't MONITOR in realtime the results ? I can do that on my ADS IDVD2.0 on my PC realtime, I can even monitor video in realtime as it would be encoded to get a preview.

You can definitely monitor adjustments in real time when freezing or playing back recorded material. While you can't make adjustments WHILE recording, you can play around with the adjustments, and preview the results in standby mode, before hitting the record button.

I would steer clear from Pioneers (all models) - their optical drives tend to break down quickly - and the tech support is subpar.

My experience has been the total opposite as far as build quality is concerned. All my Pioneer burners are working flawlessly, including when recording to DL+R discs. No hiccups ever thus far. As far as tech support is concerned, I agree that Pioneer is very rigid when dealing with the public. They rather have you spend a fortune on getting your toys fixed or updated by them, instead of readily releasing firmware updates, selling service discs directly to you, or making HDDs or burners in their DVD recorders user replaceable.

There are times where it is good to be able to choos CBR, VBR CVBR - One of the biggest failures of the pioneers is the encoding - and to see this - try running a slideshow on your PC, with still pictures and video transition effects / wipes - and send the output to your pioneer - ANY bitrate. Notice the blockyness that occurs during scene change / transition - Just as bad as the Panasonic, if not worse. It's strange that the low-end, budget recorders use cheaper chipsets that are better optimized for lower bitrates (and high too) and don't exhibit these behaviors.

That may well be true, but I would have to see A / B comparisons on a high-end CRT monitor to be convinced.

[Seeker47]

The manual doesn't specify. Are you saying that if burning from the HDD to a DL disc it can do a continuous title across both layers?

Yes, it uses up what space is available on the DL disc -- both layers. For example, I recall that the movie "Scarface", which I'd recorded off cable to the HDD, with an approx. running time of 2H:20M, and which I'd calculated in advance and therefore recorded at MN27 speed on the 640, basically filled up the DL blank. Whether or not the Pio treats that as a single title / track -- or several -- I couldn't tell you, without examining the disc. I'll try to find it and let you know, if you're curious.

Please check this. I'm very curious about it.

I can't find that disc at the moment, but I just stuck "Once Upon A Time in the West" into the PC (an even longer movie), and using IsoBuster found 1 Session, 1 Track (VOBs up to 1_8) plus some unexpected stuff. In addition to the VIDEO_TS folder that has the VOBs, there is a VIDEO_RM folder I don't recall seeing before . . . but then I haven't examined the details of that many discs. It has a 1 Meg. DAT file plus small IFO and BUP files. There is also a +VR Video Recordings folder, which shows this:

Recording 00 (Once Upon a Time in the West) MPG VOB LBA = 16384 Size = 7.53GB

I can't account for this, because I don't have a great understanding of DVD or what I'm looking at with IsoBuster. The recording was made on Verbatim DL -- to the best of my knowledge in Video Mode, not VR -- and I would assume at something closer to SP speed . . . but it's always possible I could have screwed up. There are boxes of other discs I could check, but that will have to wait as I have no time to do this for awhile.

[orsetto]

At this point in the North American market, if you're going to bash on Pioneers you might as well not bother with DVD/HDD recorders at all. Given the extremely limited choices available *new*, the current Pioneers are way better built and more flexible than any other options we can buy. There is nothing horrible in their encoders that is not easily seen on nine out of ten other brands. The only time I ever see blocks is at split-second edit points where I've cut commercials out of a crummy digital cable broadcast. Otherwise any blocks I see are in the source material as well. And the optical drive on Pioneers since 2006 have been killer durable- possibly the best ever put in a standalone recorder. Pre-2006, they were prone to premature burnout, but no worse than similar Toshiba and Panasonic machines of the period: they all died quickly.

If you're looking for perfection, skip the standalone recorders entirely, because they cannot provide perfection. You'll need to roll your own, with a customized HTPC. Standalones are a compromise of cost, convenience and recording quality: in that light, Pioneers are the best available choice in USA via Canada. DVD/HDD recorders are expensive relative to cable/satellite DVR rentals, those of us who still buy them are doing "niche" work like dubbing our VHS libraries to DVD. Such source material is hardly HD quality, and is better served by the "compromise" encoders in a standalone which can roll with the punches and maintain a relatively consistent recording quality for the duration of a tape. I have learned thru hard experience that the "best" encoder is relative to the task: I wasted a lot of time on the supposed "best" recorders or capture cards recommended on forums, only to discover they are way too sensitive to handle glitchy messy SD sources like VHS. The manual VBR settings on the Pioneer encoder combined with its complete immunity to stupid tape gotchas and rock-solid editing abilities make them the recorder of choice for many of us. To dismiss them as total crap is an exaggeration, to say they are unsuitable for those with expectations of BluRay results is more accurate.

[highvolumeJP]

I see a SONY RDR-HX7x0 with 160 GB HD It'ssold around here are these pioneer as well ? And I use my recorders mostly for transfering my VHS and SVHS tapes to DVD - pioneers use EXCESSIVE softening of the image it is a bit strange they have a sharpening option in video adjustment, that does absolutely nothing - the recorded DVD is significantly more soft. This would normally be good for noisy sources - but on pristine, well lit SVHS scenes, it is totally unecessary and makes the image crap - too bad that Pioneer does not give you the option to turn it off.

I will soon run some tests between my IDVD2 and 3 DVD recorders, recording the blue screen and menu - or any scene with littering or sharp edges, and you will see the difference is huge - and it makes me sick that a cirrus logic or LSI encoder can far exceed the most expensive Pioneers at all bit rates in terms of sharpness - I have yet to see any artifacting or blocking in my IDVD2 encodes, now I don't know what pioneer uses, do they make their own encoders or use the Sony MPEG encoders, which would probably explain a lot of things

[orsetto]

The Sony RDR-HX780 is clone of the Pioneer DVR-560 minus the DVD-RAM recording feature. It is available much cheaper than the Pioneer because A) Sony stupidly re-entered the Canadian market at a time when hardly anyone wants these machines, those who do buy the Pioneers on sale at FutureShop, and B) word got out pretty quickly that the quality control on the Sony-branded knockoffs is not as good as the original Pioneers, so the bargain price of the Sony turns out to maybe not be such a bargain after all. The encoder and motherboard used in all cases was developed by Pioneer, not Sony, forgot which chipset its based on but that info is here on VH somewhere. (Most recorders perform better at record than playback, DVD-Rs that look "soft" on the machine that made them will usually play much "sharper" on a standard dedicated DVD player.)

You're certainly entitled to your opinion on the Pioneers, nothing suits everybody, I'm just pointing out beggars can't be choosers these days and we could do a lot worse than a Pioneer. In the past I have used the vaunted LSI chipset and been disappointed by it: some recorders added a non-defeatable noise filter to LSI which results in staggeringly soft VHS dupes (way worse than Pioneer), others do nothing to buffer the ultra-sensitive LSI against unstable analog sources, resulting in image distortions that require a galaxy of added hardware to compensate. I'll take the easier, more predictable Pioneer any day, thanks. The only task my LSI hardware is reliably fantastic at is encoding a long-play, pristine analog source like Laserdisc or a four hour movie from downrezzed HD cable.

[highvolumeJP]

I was wondering, with the Sony RDR-HX7B0, should the HDD fail, what happens when you turn on your unit, will it still let you use DVD mode to burn DVDs, or it will stop working completly - Also, it is very awkward when you turn on and off the machine, the HDD cycles on and off as well - now I know that normally modern PC HDDs are good for thousands of on/off cycles - but on this recorder, is it safe to turn unit on and off many times a day or should it be left on 24/7 - I heard stories about overheating issues with the unit- - meaning the chip melts down !

[orsetto]

The Sony is based on a Pioneer chassis, as such it should behave like a Pioneer if its HDD ever fails: the display will flash HDD ERR and access to the hard drive will be disabled, but the optical drive should remain usable. However, there are a variety of reports suggesting the Sony RDR-HX780 has issues not seen on its source model, the Pioneer DVR-560. There is no clear evidence of a particular reason why this should be, just random problem reports. Aside from disabling the DVD-RAM record option, the only difference in the Sony version is a few modifications to the firmware that aid connectivity with certain Sony-brand flat panel televisions. The power supply, fan, etc, should be the same as the Pioneer.

My current lineup of heavy-use Pioneers (12-14 hours a day dubbing VHS or recording from cable) are all based on the 640 chassis of 2006. My 540 (a 640 with smaller HDD) has been running non-stop for almost 3 years: no overheat. Ditto the 450 added last year and the 460 I acquired a few months ago. My cable service is routed thru the 450, so I turn it on and off along with my TV several times a day. For that matter, even my 531 (known as the single least reliable recorder ever made) has been chugging along merrily for three years. So I don't know why the new Sony 780, using a Pio 560 chassis, should be more troublesome.

One crucial difference between 2007/2008 models and earlier units was the switch to SATA drives instead of EIDE. There have been many reports of HDD "failure" from owners of very recent recorders and also PCs. I have experienced it myself, and once again its traceable to shoddy quality control of generic Chinese parts that should be a no-brainer to mfr flawlessly: the simple SATA cable connecting HDD to motherboard. If your new DVD/HDD recorder (or HTPC) starts exhibiting weird hard drive flakiness, open the case and play with the SATA cable. Unplug it from both the drive and the motherboard, then reseat firmly. This will almost always solve the problem and restore normal HDD function, although for how long is anyones guess. It seems some SATA cables either oxidize or work themselves loose after a certain amount of use.

[highvolumeJP]

What issues does the 780 have that the pioneer 560 doesn't, can you be more specific ? What random reports ?

[Bix]

Orsetto-

Looking at the manual and my edit menu again, there's no way to set up a playlist or combine multiple titles into one on my recordings as the edit menu doesn't give me the "Create" or "Combine" options to do so.

As I look through the manual more, I think that I may have figured it out. Tell me if I have it right:

In setup, I have the HDD Recording Mode set to "Video Mode On," which forces DVD Video compatibility. I believe that the default was "Video Mode Off." Recordings with "Video Mode Off" can still be burnt to DVD Video if they meet certain standards outlined in the manual, like not using MN9 to MN15 because they use resolutions that are not compliant with the DVD Video standard. If I have it set to "Video Mode Off," then I can make playlists and burn them to DVD as DVD video, but not in high speed mode.

Is that it?

Thanks!

P.S. I love how on this recorder, when you set up to do Video Mode/Keyframe edits, it will only pause at the keyframes so you see exactly where the edit will be, whereas on the Toshiba you can stop at any frame and the results vary from where you saw it while editing.

[wabjxo]

..

[Bix]

The Pioneers don't stop at key frames, they just stop every 15 frames... it's just a 15-frame counter. Chop a few frames off the beginning in VR-mode (frame-accurate), then do another Video-mode edit at front and it still moves 15 frames. Also, after high-speed dub, the edit points will still move a few frames. Only a real-time dub will keep the edit points within 1 frame or right on.

Gotcha, though it's still much less frustrating than the Toshiba as so far from my experience you get what you wanted when you edited.

[samijubal]

P.S. I love how on this recorder, when you set up to do Video Mode/Keyframe edits, it will only pause at the keyframes so you see exactly where the edit will be, whereas on the Toshiba you can stop at any frame and the results vary from where you saw it while editing.

You just weren't using the Toshiba right. You go into chapter break edit mode and select GOP (video mode) or frame (VR mode) and edit, then what you see is what you get, it's a pretty simple process. There's no other recorder made that will do all the Toshiba recorders do.

[orsetto]

Whatever reasoning behind Pioneers editing display, it does pretty much give a "what you see is what you get" indication. I always use video mode, never drop into frame accurate mode. The half-second rollover edit point in video mode is a drag sometimes due to the way broadcasters insert commercial breaks frame-to-frame now, but its almost always manageable and any inaccuracy has always been to my benefit (a frame or two in the desired direction). I have never had a Pioneer crash itself in editing mode, but have experienced this on other makes: Pios are rock solid for editing.

Regarding the Copy List function, I can assure you this does work in both Video mode and VR mode: I use it every single day on three generations of Pioneer recorders. You are probably just not understanding some basic goofy point in Pioneers logic, and this is throwing you off: these machines rarely do anything intuitively, a Japanese engineers reasoning is not the same as an American consumers. Its really difficult to describe in writing how to make the copy list work, you will just need to keep studying the manual until a light bulb clicks on over your head, like the rest of us did .

Re the random issues afflicting the Sony 780 that do *not* affect the Pioneer 560 its based on: color casts in the HDMI, color casts via component out, tuner failures, hard drive failures, power supply failures within days or weeks of purchase. These Sony reports are not numerous, but notable given there are few to no such complaints about the Pioneer version. Assuming you purchase the Sony from a Canadian chain store with a good return policy, I would not hesitate to try out the Sony 780 at its going sale price of $229, almost 40% less than the near-identical Pioneer 560. This of course applies only to Canada: the Sony 780 is not marketed officially in the USA and for that reason I would recommend the more expensive Pioneer 460 or 560 to Americans interested in importing a Canadian recorder. None of the imported-from-Canada Pioneers has given trouble so far, they are an excellent option.

[Bix]

P.S. I love how on this recorder, when you set up to do Video Mode/Keyframe edits, it will only pause at the keyframes so you see exactly where the edit will be, whereas on the Toshiba you can stop at any frame and the results vary from where you saw it while editing.

You just weren't using the Toshiba right. You go into chapter break edit mode and select GOP (video mode) or frame (VR mode) and edit, then what you see is what you get, it's a pretty simple process. There's no other recorder made that will do all the Toshiba recorders do.

I always made sure to choose GOP and I never got WYSIWYG edits like I get on the Pioneer.

Regarding the Copy List function, I can assure you this does work in both Video mode and VR mode: I use it every single day on three generations of Pioneer recorders. You are probably just not understanding some basic goofy point in Pioneers logic, and this is throwing you off: these machines rarely do anything intuitively, a Japanese engineers reasoning is not the same as an American consumers. Its really difficult to describe in writing how to make the copy list work, you will just need to keep studying the manual until a light bulb clicks on over your head, like the rest of us did .

Wait, are we talking about copy lists or play lists? Now I'm even more confused...

[samijubal]

You were doing something wrong if the edits weren't right is all I can say. I get edits exactly where I make them.

[Seeker47]

You were doing something wrong if the edits weren't right is all I can say. I get edits exactly where I make them.

So do I, and I generally favor the Frame Accurate mode. Whatever shift may occur with edit points -- say from high speed dubbing -- has mostly been inconsequential here. But I try to place my edits judiciously. The Copy List can blow up on you, if you stack it with too many items, or a lot of items having many edits per each, or mix 'n match various MN speed items in the same Copy List. So, as Mick Jagger sang in one of his infamous songs, "Oh Don' Do Dat !"

[Bix]

You were doing something wrong if the edits weren't right is all I can say. I get edits exactly where I make them.

Well, I always chose GOP mode on the Toshiba as I do now on the Pioneer, so I don't see what I could have been doing wrong then.

[p_l]

So, as Mick Jagger sang in one of his infamous songs, "Oh Don' Do Dat !"

Midnight Rambler, right?