Upscale or converter to VGA/DVI?

[redwudz]

Anything is possible, but these are the S-video and VGA pinouts from http://pinouts.ru/ :

[jagabo]

I suppose the 15 pin shell could have some chips inside it. But I suspect it's expensive (for a cable) because it's very old and rare (for use with a specific 1990 era monitor).

[smokinoakum]

Ok, so from what you guys are saying I have to assume that the guy I was talking to did not know what he was talking about!!! This is why I am here.

So I have excepted that the conversion is not possible without major loss in data.

So...since I am good friens with the guy who makes the cameras, I can maybe get him to mod my camera.

Is it possible to rewire a composite output to a VGA? Does it depend on the board he is using for the camera?

Neil

[jagabo]

A composite port cannot be rewired to VGA. But whatever video DAC he's using for composite output may have the ability to output VGA instead.

[edDV]

Ok, so from what you guys are saying I have to assume that the guy I was talking to did not know what he was talking about!!! This is why I am here.

So I have excepted that the conversion is not possible without major loss in data.

So...since I am good friens with the guy who makes the cameras, I can maybe get him to mod my camera.

Is it possible to rewire a composite output to a VGA? Does it depend on the board he is using for the camera?

Neil

I've been away. Are we still talking about that T-Scope camera? It only has analog composite and S-video out!

I'll try to catch up this weekend.


Conversion to VGA before analog output would take a total redesign. First estimate is in the high six figures.
Got budget?

VGA is analog RGB+HV sync. It is intended for display not capture.

[smokinoakum]

A composite port cannot be rewired to VGA. But whatever video DAC he's using for composite output may have the ability to output VGA instead.

Remeber, I'm a newbie! LOL What is a video DAC? Does this refer to the mother board of the camera?

Neil

[edDV]

A composite port cannot be rewired to VGA. But whatever video DAC he's using for composite output may have the ability to output VGA instead.

Remeber, I'm a newbie! LOL What is a video DAC? Does this refer to the mother board of the camera?

Neil

Homework:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAMDAC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Graphics_Array

http://www.karbosguide.com/hardware/module7b1.htm
http://www.tkk.fi/Misc/Electronics/faq/vga2rgb/

[jagabo]

A video DAC (Digital to Analog Converter) converts a digital frame buffer to an analog video signal. Modern video DACs are pretty flexible so it may be able to output RGB at VGA scan rates. In fact the design may use a device like this to convert RGB to composite video:

http://www.analog.com/en/digital-to-analog-converters/video-encoders/ad725/products/product.html

[edDV]

One should avoid the analog conversion except for TV monitoring. If capture is the goal, output one of the established digital transfer standards (e.g. RGB, IEEE-1394, SMPTE-259M, SMPTE-292M).

For Astronomy, most would use at least 24bit RGB unless the goal is to feed broadcast TV or DVD.

[usually_quiet]

I think it would be a good idea to try to contact Epiphan and find out from them whether the set up you have in mind will work. I'd want at least a second opinion before spending around $900 on equipment without being sure I could use it, especially since some of the more expert members of this forum have doubts about it.

I suppose if you are able to borrow the Epiphan capture device your friend has access to, you could buy the S-Video to VGA adaptor and run an experiment. Wasting $75 plus shipping would be preferable to wasting $900.

[smokinoakum]

Thanks for the info guys. I do know that there are digital components in the camera itself, so there must be a DAC somewhere in there. I don't want to get my hopes up, but if it is possible for him to do it, it will be done. One of the perks of being a beta tester is asking for improvements, and getting them as long as it is something that can be rewired inside the camera, and doesn't mess with how it functions.

Neil

[edDV]

Thanks for the info guys. I do know that there are digital components in the camera itself, so there must be a DAC somewhere in there. I don't want to get my hopes up, but if it is possible for him to do it, it will be done. One of the perks of being a beta tester is asking for improvements, and getting them as long as it is something that can be rewired inside the camera, and doesn't mess with how it functions.

Neil

Explain better your goals.

Are you trying to capture to a computer? Or just display on a TV?

There is no reason to convert to analog if the former. Ask for a digital interface.

Converting analog NTSC composite to VGA should be considered Archaeology, not Astronomy.

[smokinoakum]

Thanks for the info guys. I do know that there are digital components in the camera itself, so there must be a DAC somewhere in there. I don't want to get my hopes up, but if it is possible for him to do it, it will be done. One of the perks of being a beta tester is asking for improvements, and getting them as long as it is something that can be rewired inside the camera, and doesn't mess with how it functions.

Neil

Explain better your goals.

Are you trying to capture to a computer? Or just display on a TV?

There is no reason to convert to analog if the former. Ask for a digital interface.

Converting analog NTSC composite to VGA should be considered Archaeology, not Astronomy.

Ok, here is what I would like to do. If possible I would like to get the maker of the camera to change the output of the camera to either VGA to use with this http://www.epiphan.com/products/frame-grabbers/vga2usb-lr/?PHPSESSID=e5vi6m6e9g7emd4f7m2qfkvis6 or DVI to use with this http://www.epiphan.com/products/frame-grabbers/dvi2usb-solo/

Either unit gives me the flexiblity to capture high quality video/stills, be able to stream lossless feeds to my site for broadcasting, and record sessions out in the field. I also work in the medical field, and the device will be used there to to record screens for our techs to analize later.

My company has already approved the purchase of either on these units.

Neil

[smokinoakum]

Hey guys, I just heard back from the camera maker, and this is what he said in his email...

Neil,

"Thanks for the input. I had a crazy day again at work and had no time to look into rewiring the camera to VGA. If theVideo Processor has the third output it may be possible to do so. If its the case, resolution would not only increase but image sensitivity would be further improved too. I'll work on it this weekend. Been going for several months 7 days a week at 14 to 16 hours at the shop. Iwill dedicate tomorrow for the research on your VGA upgrade."

This kinda sounds promising. Now if he finds that he can wire it for VGA, will this mean that he could also do it for DVI?

Neil

[jagabo]

Sounds promising. But as edDV said, if you can get at the digital data right from the CCD or frame buffer (thereby avoiding analog all together) you will be even better off.

[edDV]

I'm not sure if this is the best example but it is "an" example of a telescope CCD imager that maintains digital for USB frame grabs. This is a better approach for image quality. The IIC accessory port uses standard interface protocol for any hired geek who can program microcontrollers.

http://www.sbig.com/sbwhtmls/newcameras.htm

Here are some more
http://www.telescope.com/control/category/~category_id=astro-imaging_camera/~pcategory...ED1CAE.ivprod1

This approach uses separate sensors for targeting and then image capture. Various capture methods can be used to gather more light with less noise including frame averaging. This allows a small Autostar scope to behave like a larger model.


http://content.telescope.com/rsc/img/catalog/product/instructions/IN_324B_StarShoot_AutoGuider.pdf

[smokinoakum]

I'm not sure if this is the best example but it is "an" example of a telescope CCD imager that maintains digital for USB frame grabs. This is a better approach for image quality. The IIC accessory port uses standard interface protocol for any hired geek who can program microcontrollers.

http://www.sbig.com/sbwhtmls/newcameras.htm

Here are some more
http://www.telescope.com/control/category/~category_id=astro-imaging_camera/~pcategory...ED1CAE.ivprod1

Yes, not only do I know of these cameras, but I have many of them. The Mallincam is as close to live viewing that you can get. All of those other cameras do extreemly long exposures, and then there is the hours of processing of the RGBL channels before you get to see the final image. Out of all the images that I posted, the longest exposure wait time to see the image was 56 seconds. The camera processes the image internaly, and every intergration, it refreshes.

But here is a shot I took from my SBIG about a month ago.

[smokinoakum]

Sounds promising. But as edDV said, if you can get at the digital data right from the CCD or frame buffer (thereby avoiding analog all together) you will be even better off.

I will ask if this is possible too. I'm not sure if he will go for it though.

Do you guys have any exapmle of how he would pull this off?

Neil

[edDV]

I'm in the market for a remote targeting option for my Meade Maksutov-Cassegrain Autostar myself. Winter is great for dark skies but it gets cold out there.

[edDV]

Do you guys have any exapmle of how he would pull this off?

Neil

With great difficulty unless the display chipset includes a full VGA RamDAC. This is unlikely. But the point was VGA doesn't have a quality capture solution, only an analog display solution. You'll need a digital to computer feed for quality capture.

[smokinoakum]

I'm in the market for a remote targeting option for my Meade Maksutov-Cassegrain Autostar myself. Winter is great for dark skies but it gets cold out there.

You should use a program called ASCOM I control everything from alignment to gotos to focusing with it, and it is free. I stay warm all year long with it.

Neil

[smokinoakum]

Do you guys have any exapmle of how he would pull this off?

Neil

With great difficulty unless the display chipset includes a full VGA RamDAC. This is unlikely. But the point was VGA doesn't have a quality capture solution, only an analog display solution. You'll need a digital to computer feed for quality capture.

I think the question was how it should be done correctly to convert it to DVI, not VGA. That question to the camera maker is already on the table. Now I need to ask about the all digital option.

No matter which is possible, I feel he will stay with the best quality most used source by people who aren't into astro photography. This is the target client that he has, and bussiness is good.

Neil

[edDV]

I think you are asking too much of this fellow. He chose components for analog composite/S-Video output, low power and low cost. That would not include deluxe components that had VGA/DVI out. Let's hear what he says but give him a break. He was targeting people wanting to monitor on a home TV and record with a home VCR or standalone DVD recorder.

[smokinoakum]

I think you are asking too much of this fellow. He chose components for analog composite/S-Video output, low power and low cost. That would not include deluxe components that had VGA/DVI out. Let's hear what he says but give him a break. He was targeting people wanting to monitor on a home TV and record with a home VCR or standalone DVD recorder.

Yeah, I would give him a break except for the fact that I am one of his beta testers, and we have done many little mods to the camera because of what we have told him we liked, or didn't like. Are you sure you don't mean give you a break for asking so many quesyions? I've known this guy for a while, and he will tell me if he doesn't think it's a good idea or not.

Case in point about the suggestion for a DVI output. Here is what he said.

"If we remove the video processor the image will never be as nice as what we are getting now. The internal video processor is a 14 bits type and is very high performance. The VGA on the other hand could be a nice addition, and a boost in quality in color signal. I will look into the VGA option for secondary output this weekend."

See he knows when he likes an idea, and when he does not.

Neil

[edDV]

...
Case in point about the suggestion for a DVI output. Here is what he said.

"If we remove the video processor the image will never be as nice as what we are getting now. The internal video processor is a 14 bits type and is very high performance. The VGA on the other hand could be a nice addition, and a boost in quality in color signal. I will look into the VGA option for secondary output this weekend."

See he knows when he likes an idea, and when he does not.

Neil

To produce VGA he needs to add a VGA capable RAMDAC plus analog RGBHV out components and a D*-15 connector. This isn't the big deal it once was in 1998, but VGA (or DVI-D) are for display not capture. Those are for monitor connection. Other cameras offer digital frame capture via USB. For moving digital video capture, typical interfaces are USB, IEEE-1394 or SDI (SMPTE-259M).

[smokinoakum]

...
Case in point about the suggestion for a DVI output. Here is what he said.

"If we remove the video processor the image will never be as nice as what we are getting now. The internal video processor is a 14 bits type and is very high performance. The VGA on the other hand could be a nice addition, and a boost in quality in color signal. I will look into the VGA option for secondary output this weekend."

See he knows when he likes an idea, and when he does not.

Neil

To produce VGA he needs to add a VGA capable RAMDAC plus analog RGBHV out components and a D*-15 connector. This isn't the big deal it once was in 1998, but VGA (or DVI-D) are for display not capture. Those are for monitor connection. Other cameras offer digital frame capture via USB. For moving digital video capture, typical interfaces are USB, IEEE-1394 or SDI (SMPTE-259M).

Yes, I realize that VGA is mainly for display, and this is why it may be apealing to Mr Mallin. As I stated before, these cameras are designed for as close as you can get to real time viewing of the sky, without the need of a bunch of astro post processing. The people who buy them, mainly want to share the sky live with someone, The fact that the epiphan devices require a VGA input is just a plus for me.

The question is, which source would you prefer for resolution, VGA or S Video??? DVI is not a option as far as he is concerned.

Neil

[jagabo]

VGA can be anywhere from 320x200 to something like 2560x1920 for each of the three color components. NTSC s-video is roughly 640x480 for the luma channel, 320x480 for the chroma channels. So obviously VGA can be better or worse. The web site claims "TOTAL PIXELS 811(H) X 508(V)." Here's the data sheet: http://www.sony.co.jp/~semicon/english/img/sony01/a6805298.pdf. The usable portion of the CCD appears to be 768x494.

[smokinoakum]

So for the conversion you say to produce VGA he needs to add a VGA capable RAMDAC plus analog RGBHV out components and a D*-15 connector. Is this the information I need to pass on to him, and is there any source of how to do this that I can sight that you know of? I'm pretty sure he would know how, but you never know. Also, do you have any idea on the cost involved in doing this?

Neil

[edDV]

So for the conversion you say to produce VGA he needs to add a VGA capable RAMDAC plus analog RGBHV out components and a D*-15 connector. Is this the information I need to pass on to him, and is there any source of how to do this that I can sight that you know of? I'm pretty sure he would know how, but you never know. Also, do you have any idea on the cost involved in doing this?

Neil

Those are the components used in the output of a typical VGA display card. Sources Intel, NVidia, AMD-ATI.

If I understand your needs, you see this as a group viewing imager rather than a frame capture device. As such it still seems to me that digital video out via USB2 would be more useful for computer display or network streaming. VGA is useful for simple connection to a computer monitor or a LCD-TV with a PC port. VGA cable lengths become problematic over about 6 meters.

[smokinoakum]

Well as Mr Mallin stated earlier ("If we remove the video processor the image will never be as nice as what we are getting now. The internal video processor is a 14 bits type and is very high performance.") it would seam that he is not interested in converting it to a digital out, but has some interest in the VGA conversion since a lot of his customers do have a typical computer monitor with those connections. When you talk about a VGA connection as a simple connection to a computer monitor or a LCD-TV with a PC port, you hit the demographic of the people who buy these units. Plus if it was a USB out he would need software with WDM drivers for it to appeal to some.

As far as the sources you listed, should I google them for VGA display card to give him examples?

Thanks!
Neil