Need some DVD Recorder suggestions, please!

[jeanpave]

Hi.

Could somebody, anybody answer (any of) these three questions, please?

1. What would be the most reliable DVD recorder, but not too expensive? I would like to buy a brand that can record on all of DVD-R, DVD+R, DVD-RW, DVD+RW, and which will last as long as possible if treated properly. (Is a decade too much to hope for?) I don't know which one might be better, between Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, Philips, Toshiba or LG.
2. What's a good recorder that can record in both PAL and NTSC, Regions 1 and 2?
3. What's a good recorder that can copy Macrovision-protected tapes? (They're my own tapes, but they aren't available on DVD, and I would like to convert them.)

Thanks in advance to everybody who is going to reply.

[Krispy Kritter]

1. There is no good answer here. Simply find a few models with the options that you want/need and find some reviews on the hardware from a site such as c/net. It's also a good idea to view the user comments on sites that allow feedback. As for longevity, it is measured in hours of use, not time as in years. Obviously a recorder that gets daily use likely won't last as long as a player which is only used once a week.

2. I don't know of any. They typically only support the region in which they were purchased.

3. None. The few that existed are no longer produced. You will need to look into getting an STB.

[samijubal]

A decade, no way, unless you only use it once a month. The good DVD recorders went a couple of years ago, what's left is disposable crap. Nothing will do copy protected tapes without something like a stabilizer or TBC between the VHS and DVD.

[orsetto]

DVD recorders are nothing like VCRs: I have Panasonic VCRs I bought in the early 1990s that still work perfectly and have never been repaired after thousands of hours use, but I would never expect similar longevity from a DVD recorder or player. They just aren't as durable. No one really knows the definitive answer why, but the burners in DVD recorders just do not hold up, under both hard and easy use. While it is more common to see heavily-used DVD recorders fail, I have seen a surprising number of failures (including my own) occur with seldom-used recorders. Apparently they behave somewhat like automobiles: heavy use wears them out, but leaving them "parked in the garage indefinitely" also leads to breakdowns.

There are machines that make both PAL and NTSC recordings, but they sell for upwards of $450 and are not easy to use. They also will not *play* their PAL recordings on an NTSC display: tricky. Dubbing of your personal VHS collection to DVD will require a stabilizer box with any DVD recorder available today. VHS uses a much simpler protection than DVDs, as long as you limit yourself to transferring VHS to DVD (and not DVD to DVD) you can get by with the older, cheaper stabilizers intended strictly for VHS. These can be had for as little as $10 online or eBay.

[jman98]

No DVD recorder records with region coding. I've never heard of the recorders that orsetto says can do PAL and NTSC. I am not all suggesting that this post is in error, I am simply pointing out that if I've never heard of this (and I keep up with video topics regularly) that such players are going to be hard to find. That is you're probably not going to find one at your local Best Buy.

Whether a cheap video stablizer will work for you or not is a good question. I have no experience, but some say that the cheap ones are useless. You may need to use a good Time Base Corrector and they aren't cheap. You're going to really be desperate to see those tapes again to justify the cost of that.

[orsetto]

In reply to jman98, I have no personal experience of the "multistandard" DVD recorders I mentioned, I was repeating comments from similar posts here and information relayed to me in PMs by members who've struggled with such units. The recorders with dual PAL and NTSC recording capability most typically promoted are the Panasonic EH67 and the assorted Pioneer 550 international models. These DVD/HDD machines run between $400-1000 depending on the model and how much actual PAL tuner functionality you require. Some of the larger local retailers, like J&R in New York, carry these models but most often they are sold via online sites.

Not having had reason to make "PAL-specific" dvds myself, I really have no idea how the formatting technically works vs VHS, which was pretty much "hard wired" for one format or the other. If I'm understanding the user reports of the PAL/NTSC DVD recorders correctly, the PAL/NTSC capability is primarily an advantage for making tape transfers. A PAL tape played on a PAL vcr into an NTSC (USA-spec) DVD recorder results in gibberish: an unusable, unplayable DVD. But a PAL tape played into a PAL/NTSC dvd recorder will result in a fully usable PAL-spec dvd-r, playable in any PAL player. What confuses many potential buyers is the fact that PAL/NTSC dvd recorders WILL NOT make format conversions: if you input a PAL vhs tape, the machine cannot create an NTSC dvd from it- only PAL. Whatever format goes in, comes out. Also, unlike many inexpensive "region-free" DVD players, these pricey PAL/NTSC recorders don't convert during playback, either: they will usually not convert a PAL dvd to NTSC output signal. Very strange.

There are a number of other factors that impact the functionality of PAL/NTSC DVD recorders, including what type/model of display you use and whether its a CRT or flat-panel. The Panasonic EH67 has only a PAL internal analog tuner, so it can only record NTSC from its line inputs. The international Pioneers all have dual analog PAL and NTSC tuners, although the NTSC tuner will be rendered useless by the US analog shutdown a few months from now. As you go higher in the Pioneer price scale, you get fancier digital PAL tuning such as DVB-T, which would be useful only if you frequently travelled to a PAL country with the unit. Pioneer confusingly markets some half-dozen "international" models using the same basic chassis, which most USA resellers further "tweak" for region-free features. Much depends on how the seller hacks the machine before you get it.

I'm just contributing here what I've been told by users of these oddball machines, and since they can be very difficult to set up properly there is every chance I've been misinformed . If so, of course I hope members with more accurate first-hand experience will chime in to correct me.

[jeanpave]

Hi.

Thank you, everybody, for replying.

Yeah, sorry about mentioning "Region 1" and "Region 2". PAL vs NTSC is the most important thing, I guess.
See, I had bought a LiteOn LVW-5005, which was hacked to record both formats (but not converting PAL to NTSC, or viceversa, of course), and was also able to record Macrovision-protected tapes.
But these were the only nice things about the recorder. The menu of the recording, as well as the technique of burning, were poor. And it gets worse: in time, the recorder cannot open or close the tray properly; after that, timer programming fails more and more often; then, you begin to hear some weird noises while reading discs; later on, the drive ruins some discs for no apparent reason; on top of that, sometimes, it fails to stop and the recording is lost, and/or it doesn't want to change the title of the recording; finally, it would just fail to finalize discs, or even sees discs as invalid, which it was able to use just a day before. Not even to mention the low compatibility rate from the start.
In another post, somebody suggested changing the drive, because the recorder itself is so great (because of those perks I mentioned). But which ones are compatible?

I can't believe that LiteOn LVW-5005 is the only one that can record tapes with Macrovision!...
Are there, at least, other LiteOn models that do that?
It doesn't matter whether the models are discontinued. If you know of any, please tell me. I'll hunt for them on eBay. (I know BestBuy is not really the best place to buy stuff like this.)

Thanks again, guys.

[orsetto]

The LiteOn 5005 was pretty much it for those features. The US market is much stricter when it comes to those little tricks: more of those machines were available in Europe and Asia than here so they are hard to find. Most of them were cheaply made and prone to breakdown, which is why they don't appear often on USA eBay. If you check threads here and elsewhere, you'll find tips for replacing the burner in a 5005. But seriously, the "ignores MV" feature is not that big a deal. Nine out of ten users who need to transfer protected tapes to DVD just use a little stabilizer box, they work fine in almost all cases. The day of the 5005 is past, newer machines offer better menu features and better reliability.

jman98 has a good point, in that *some* protected tapes are so overloaded with MV that you might need a very expensive TBC to get around it with some models of recorder. It depends on the recorder. There is something in the design of the encoders in most current DVD recorders that makes them much less sensitive to the tape-to-tape protection variations than VCRs used to be: all they need is a simple stabilizer to strip out the basic protection and then their encoder tidies up any remaining issues. I have many VHS tapes from the most excessive, horrible runs of MV protection in the late 1980s and they all transferred nicely to DVD using nothing more than the typical generic $18 stabilizer you find on the net, the one that looks like a black cigarette pack with two RCA jacks on the end.

The most important factor in this type of transfer is the age of the DVD recorder. Those made before 2005 will almost always need the expensive TBC solution, because their encoders were still a bit oversensitive. The machines sold 2005 and later have more stable encoders that work just fine with only a cheap stabilizer. To put a face on this, when I owned the older JVC DRM100, Pioneer 510 and Pioneer 520 recorders, the cheap stabilizer solution failed with about 50% of heavily protected tapes, forcing me to add the TBC, and even then many of them failed. When I replaced those recorders with newer Pioneer 531, 640, and 450 machines I got a 100% perfect transfer rate on all the same tapes using just the cheap stabilizer. If you can repair your 5005 easily and affordably, its certainly worth doing, but if not a modern recorder with a stabilizer will do equally well.

Making PAL dvds of PAL tapes is another issue entirely: you really would need to repair your hacked 5005 for that, unless you were willing to spend $$$ on an expensive current PAL/NTSC dual-format recorder. Or accept some quality loss, and use an external PAL-to-NTSC converter box to make NTSC dvds from your PAL tapes. Good converters cost more than the average recorder, though.

[CogoSWSDS]

The DVD Recorder I have is a fairly new one. It's a Maganvox (made by Funai) model ZV420MW8. Picked it up for $147 at the local Wal-Mart. It is tunerless, which is not a problem for me as I have cable boxes. It has 1hr, 2hr, 2.5hr, 3hr, 4hr, and 6hr modes. I tend to do everything in 2hr mode or higher. The 1hr-2.5hr modes record in full D1 (720x480). The 3hr modes on down record in half D1 (352x480). Overall the quality doesn't look any worse than what I get off the cable. Menus are decent, if I want a fancier menu I rip on the PC then re-author with a better menu. Records in +VR mode. Recordings on DVD+RW don't need to be finalized, all other formats do. It will do DVD+R, DVD-R, DVD+RW, and DVD-RW.

I really should write a review about this machine, I just haven't had the time. BTW, it's a combo DVDR and VCR. We needed a VCR for the 2nd TV, and this solves both things in one box. It unfortunately only handles NTSC, not PAL. Sorry.

CogoSWSDS

[jeanpave]

Thank you very much for explaining, Orsetto.
I do wish to keep the PAL capabilities, you were so right to address that issue.
(But it's not like the LiteOn I have now is completely broken. I can still record, for now, although very often I hear horrible noise. Some discs it can finalize, some it can't. But I can use Nero to rip the unfinalized ones. And, besides, I'm searching for a drive replacement on eBay.)
Nevertheless, how much is one of those expensive PAL/NTSC Macrovision stabilizers, can you tell me?

Thank you very much, too, CogoSWSDS.
Would you say Magnavox is a solid machine, that desn't break easily?
I might consider buying one, that's why I'm asking for advice from everybody. I'm pretty sure I'll get a solid recorder (which doesn't really have to record in PAL, or Macrovision-protected tapes, or anything like that), just for everyday TV recordings. So, if the Magnavox doesn't break quickly, then that's kind of what I'm looking for.

[jjeff]

AFA your grinding LiteOn, have you ever tried taking your machine apart and cleaning the spindle? It does wonders for Pannys that exhibit the same noises/problems you're describing. When the spindle gets covered in dust it cannot hold the spinning disc firmly enough and it can slip causing the grinding and if it slips during writing it can cause dire consequences such as a failed finalization. It sure would be worth a try.
AFA Magnavox they are made by Funia which is generally more concerned with price savings than quality although I have read good things about it's HDD model available at Walmart although it does run ~$300 I believe. Stabilizers run between $120 and $160. I think the brand Video Filter is the best regarded but is the $160 one. I believe Grex is the cheaper one and some people report it "softens" the image a little.

[orsetto]

jeanpave, the inexpensive Funai/Phillips units available at WalMart are generally considered OK if not fantastic machines for the money. I would advise looking for an "open box" returned unit, this can save you big bucks with little risk. Many DVD recorders are returned to the store a few days after people buy them, because they think they're too hard to use. This can create a real bargain possibility for the careful shopper. If you see the more upscale Phillips 3576 or Magnavox H2160 models with built-in hard drive on sale or "open box", they are more flexible and definitely worth the extra money (usual price for a new unopened unit is about $250). Note that the "combo" DVD/VHS machines often do not allow you to loop in a stabilizer box between their VCR and DVD sections, so you would still have to use your existing VCR to play protected tapes into the DVD section.

There is a lot of confusion out there regarding the different levels or types of "video stabilizers". Those who are new to the concept can make expensive mistakes if they buy too little or too much stabilizer for their needs. What *you* need is the bottom-rung stabilizer which typically sells for $29.95 or less (often much less). This type of stabilizer design was made by dozens of generic companies all using the same basic design of "black cigarette box, two RCA jacks on one end, powered by 9 volt battery". These are strictly limited to stripping VHS protection when making DVD backups, they do not do anything else. They will work well for 9 out of 10 protected tapes. The next step up is the so-called "DVD-compatible" stabilizer, sold under brand names like Grex and Sima, and as generic "DVD clarifiers". These cost between $100-250, and are primarily used by those who need to make DVD to DVD backups of commercial discs or record protected satellite programs. They will work fine with VHS sources, but the higher price primarily pays for their ability to filter the much more complicated "invisible" protection signals on DVDs and protected cable/satellite/off the air broadcasts. If you don't need that, don't pay extra for it. The final step up would be an external TBC (time base corrector). These are wicked expensive at $350-500 new, and are really only necessary for those capturing analog video to a computer, or those using older recorders as I discussed in an earlier post. TBCs are total overkill when all you want to do is back up some movie tapes to a new DVD recorder. They can also be very disappointing, because they don't specifically search out and filter protection signals the way "Level 2" stabilizers do. Instead they rely on a traditional reconstruction of the video "guiding" signal: this is essential for some types of specialized needs but very often lets protection signals "slip through the cracks" at random moments, spoiling your recording session.

For your purposes, try the cheapest stabilizer first. If you encounter more than a handful of tapes that aren't "cured" with the cheap stabilizer, trade up to a "digital/DVD" stabilizer in the $100 range. That will solve your problems for sure. It is unlikely you would ever need the ultra-pricey TBC, and if you did, you'd probably still need a stabilizer as well. Start at the bottom, and work your way up if necessary.

[samijubal]

Nothing Funai makes is "solid". They are a bottom-of-the-line company. The good recorders are gone, unless you can find one on ebay, where they are getting more and more rare all the time.

You can get some pretty good deals on open box recorders on ebay. I got a Funai made Toshiba for $20 from Cowboom, a division of Dealtree, that does their own auctions. If you've never used a good recorder it would probably be OK. Despite people's ravings here about PQ on the Funai recorders, it's nowhere near the quality of the recorders that were actually made by Toshiba.

[orsetto]

Despite people's ravings here about PQ on the Funai recorders, it's nowhere near the quality of the recorders that were actually made by Toshiba.

Agreed. The late lamented premium Toshiba models were unsurpassed for PQ. The Funai-sourced units are OK for what they are, but don't expect miracles. They can be highly effective for those on severely restricted budgets. As for the Phillips 3575/Magnavox H2160, their main selling point is they are the last DVD/HDD recorders available easily in the USA. The HDD feature is incredibly useful, and these machines offer it along with an up-to-date ATSC tuner. Considering what earlier DVD/HDD units once cost, the normal retail of $250 is quite a bargain and "refurbs" at $199 are a steal. But they don't really compare to the 2006 and earlier "big name" units.

Nicer "vintage" machines can be had by careful shopping on eBay, but they often cost as much or more than a new recorder, and they are much more picky about which blank media they will burn. If you have the stomach for eBay roulette, and know what you're buying, you can get practically anything. Otherwise, opt for an open-box "new" machine. You can get a Panasonic EZ-18 or EZ-28 for about $110 if you're patient and shop several stores- these would be somewhat better than a Funai recorder at the same price, offering more useful recording speeds etc. If you want the hard drive feature, look for the Phillips/Magnavox on sale.

[pepegot1]

I got a stabilizer here: http://www.checkhere22.com/stabilizer/
Inexpensive and works fine with regard to macrovision.

[usually_quiet]

Macrovision isn't the problem. It's CGMS-A or some other copy protection flag. The video stabilizers and TBCs that work to remove this kind of copy protection only strip CGMS-A as a side-effect because it is adjacent to the same part of the VBI used by Macrovision (and closed captions as well).

[orsetto]

Macrovision isn't the problem. It's CGMS-A or some other copy protection flag. The video stabilizers and TBCs that work to remove this kind of copy protection only strip CGMS-A as a side-effect because it is adjacent to the same part of the VBI used by Macrovision (and closed captions as well).

You are talking about the "Type 2" or "digital/DVD" stabilizers I mentioned. These are required to remove the CGMS signal when backing up DVDs or recording protected satellite broadcasts. But they should not be necessary for the original poster, who only needs to back up some old VHS to DVD. His VHS collection uses simple Macrovision protection, which is easily stripped by dirt-cheap VHS stabilizers like the one suggested by pepegot1.

[usually_quiet]

Macrovision isn't the problem. It's CGMS-A or some other copy protection flag. The video stabilizers and TBCs that work to remove this kind of copy protection only strip CGMS-A as a side-effect because it is adjacent to the same part of the VBI used by Macrovision (and closed captions as well).

You are talking about the "Type 2" or "digital/DVD" stabilizers I mentioned. These are required to remove the CGMS signal when backing up DVDs or recording protected satellite broadcasts. But they should not be necessary for the original poster, who only needs to back up some old VHS to DVD. His VHS collection uses simple Macrovision protection, which is easily stripped by dirt-cheap VHS stabilizers like the one suggested by pepegot1.

I confused this thread with a diferent one from the same OP where the subject of copy protection in broadcasts did come up. Sorry about that.

It does seem to be an issue of late because CPRM is shutting down recordings being made by newer DVD recorders from local broadcast stations, such as CBS.

[theslydog]

Has anyone tried one of these with regards to CPRM?

Grex - The Best Digital Video Stabilizer will let you copy, capture and view any protected video content

* Copy protected DVD to DVD and VHS
* Copy protected VHS to DVD and VHS
* Record Protected TV channels from Satellite or Cable Receiver, SetTopBox, PVR, DVR, TiVo
* Capture protected VHS and DVD with PC Video Capture Card
* Interconnect any Macrovision sensitive devices like Video Projectors, HDTV and LCD monitors
http://www.xdimax.com/grex/grex.html

[jjeff]

Don't know that I've ever seen a picture of the Grex. Very odd IMO looks like some kind of hand warmer . From what I've read it works as advertised but will not correct the widescreen flag like the "Video Filter" product. But then again it's quite a bit cheaper.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1008164&highlight=grex

[LCSHG]

jeanpave

Do you still have the liteon 5005
If so, put a reasonable price 0n it and I will buy it As Is


PS
The quote hack had nothing to do with PAL or MTSC

[handyguy]

You can use your computer as a PVR:

byopvr.com

[tluxon]

AFA your grinding LiteOn, have you ever tried taking your machine apart and cleaning the spindle? It does wonders for Pannys that exhibit the same noises/problems you're describing. When the spindle gets covered in dust it cannot hold the spinning disc firmly enough and it can slip causing the grinding and if it slips during writing it can cause dire consequences such as a failed finalization. It sure would be worth a try....

This sounds like it could be the issue on my LiteOn LVW-5005. It seems to read discs fine - even erases them completely when needed. Only problem seems to be recording anything more than a few minutes in duration. Then it seems to get locked up in an unending "Stopping" mode.

I took the unit apart yesterday and carefully cleaned the laser (no contact, just bloiwng Dust-off on it carefully) and the tracking mechanism, re-lubricating the rails with silicone spray.

I looked at what appears to be a spinning gasketed plastic disk. Is this what you're referring to as the "spindle"? The material seems to be a very thin coat of silicone rubber or something, but without knowing what it was I was hesitant to "clean" it with any means other than blowing it off.

Can anyone expand on this "cleanng the spindle"?

Thanks!

[usually_quiet]

I looked at what appears to be a spinning gasketed plastic disk. Is this what you're referring to as the "spindle"? The material seems to be a very thin coat of silicone rubber or something, but without knowing what it was I was hesitant to "clean" it with any means other than blowing it off.

Can anyone expand on this "cleanng the spindle"?

Thanks!

See this thread for more information and some good links on the subject: https://forum.videohelp.com/topic346729.html?highlight=clean%20spindle

[jjeff]

I'm not sure what a spindle looks like on a Liteon but on a Panny it looks like this, it's the black part that the center of the DVD reset on when inserted. It's best seen in photo #2 in the link.
http://club.cdfreaks.com/2181779-post58.html

[LCSHG]

Tluxon

The drives in the liteon ‘are usually a DDW 451s or DDW 813s The DDw drives had problems
When starting to go bad they might be made to work fo awhile BUT were Unreliable.
They were replaced with PC drives

Drives fron the SHOW 1635s and below work fine. Those above were said to loose Fast Forward

However there is a drive family above the 1693s and below the 160 series

The SHW 1635 and SHW 16H5S
I know that the 1635 works on all functions.
The SHW 16H5S is litescribe and I believe is a UK unit.
A person from the UK on another site reported the 16H5S worked fine on all functions.

The speed of a drive [4x or above ] makes no difference in operation when used in a stand alone.

Ther were some clones of the liteon drive [like the Sony] that would work buut are older units