Understanding Vegas Audio

[solarblast]

In the small projects I've attempted, I haven't really given audio a fair shake. Fades and dissolves are about my style. I'd like to move ahead a bit.

As I understand it, omitting busses, there is track, envelope, and event control. If I work within an event, I see the volume control and it's easily adjustable, but always to negative Dbs. Apparently, the idea is to use this relative to the track volume control, which may go positive. Correct? I experimented with audio envelopes, and see how to add points. It appears that envelopes are timeline bound. If one moves an event, then the segment of the envelope at the new position rules. From that I would infer that using envlopes is the last phase of editing, once one is satisified with all other aspects of a project. Comments?

[solarblast]

Let me highlight the important question here. I'll forgo comments on the relative questions directed at the volume levels of events vs tracks.

Is it true that the audio envelope is attached only to the timeline? That is, if one moves an event, then added points don't move with the event. I see that they don't but maybe there's away to keep them attached. If it can't be done, then the notion of an envelope seems a bit daffy.

[guns1inger]

I don't know what version of Vegas you are looking at, but for Vegas 7 (Pro)

1. The default position for the volume envelope is 0.0dB. Add a point and move it up, it increases the volume (+dB). Add a point and drag it down, it decreases the volume (-dB). O.0dB runs down the centre of the track.

2. Points applied to an envelope within a clip move with that clip when it is dragged along the timeline. If I drag that clip do another timeline, the points go with it. But (and here is the bit you learn by reading the manual) you have to turn on Lock Envelopes to Events by clicking the icon on the toolbar.

[solarblast]

Manual, help? What manual and Help? Never noticed it there or in Help. A lock. How about that. The silly little plot symbol on the tool bar.

Finally, I'm off to the last step in my little creation, adjusting the audio. Good. Thanks. 6.0.

[solarblast]

Actually, there's one place I didn't look. The pdf. I have now pulled it off the CD, and installed it, and am about to put it in the start menu for Vegas.

VEGASBUSTERS*

If there's something strange
in your neighborhood
Who ya gonna call?
VEGASBUSTERS

If there's something weird
and it don't look good
Who ya gonna call?
VEGASBUSTERS

I ain't afraid of no software
I ain't afraid of no software

If you're seeing things
running through your head
Who can ya call?
VEGASBUSTERS

* from the song and movie Ghost Busters.

[solarblast]

An important question not yet answered is when does one start to use the audio envelope. It would seem very near the end of the project. However, this locking concept may invalidate that thought. Maybe i'll be answered as I get acquainted with the mechanics of this.

[zoobie]

maybe your song scared everyone off...

[guns1inger]

Vegas has a very comprehensive set of help files. They can be found under the Help menu, or by pressing F1. Most questions about the interface and usage can be answered by browsing there.

As for when to use envelopes - that is entirely up to your work flow. Generally I like to get all the basic editing down before worrying about envelopes unless this is a specific reason to use them - the velocity envelope, for example, might get used earlier. This like the volume envelope are usually used during the fine tuning and audio editing stage, which happens latter in the piece.

[solarblast]

Boo! [Colorado]

One handy item I discovered in the process of looking for help is a four page document on command tips, Ctrl, Alt, F-keys, ... Very handy. Now I know what keys to press to go from start to end of an event*.

Yes, the files are pretty comprehensive, and better than most software, but finding the right material in them isn't so easy sometimes. I would be willing to bet you couldn't easily find the lock concept for envelopes using Help? OK, maybe not you, but someone far less experienced. Once I keyed (Ahem) on lock, it was simple. What is often apparent to one individual, may not be so to another. Finding the right information can be tough sometimes. There are people out there who think Google is about the only answer. Not so. Nor are the manual and the Help in Vegas always the right places to look.

Well, this could turn into a major opus. This sort of discussion belongs in a forum outside of this one. Fini.

* Try finding that in Help or the manual--quickly or even slowly. If I'm not mistaken, there is a section on these commands, but doesn't mention the start/end keys.

[solarblast]

I don't know what version of Vegas you are looking at, but for Vegas 7 (Pro)

1. The default position for the volume envelope is 0.0dB. Add a point and move it up, it increases the volume (+dB). Add a point and drag it down, it decreases the volume (-dB). O.0dB runs down the centre of the track.

Vegas 6.0. When I'm looking at an audio clip and move the cursor to to the top of the event, it shows Gain 0.0 dB. There's only one way to go. If I select the envelope, then I can go up or down +/-.

[guns1inger]

That is the master volume level. It isn't a true envelope, as you cannot add points and vary it over time. It affects the entire track.

If you right-click on the head of the track you can select Add/Remove Envelopes, and add a Volume envelope (or Pan etc). This is a true envelope that allows for points to be added, and volume to raised or lowere around the 0dB point.

[solarblast]

Yes, I'm into envelopes, points and adjustments, but more importantly for the moment is how to use Audacity as my audio editor. I can use it on a single audio event, but seemingly not more.

[guns1inger]

Vegas will only allow you to edit one event at a time in an external editor, not an entire timeline. If you need to do a timeline, export the timeline first.

[solarblast]

OK, but what do I export it as? Do I render it? Help tells me there are several "exports". Is there a track export?

[guns1inger]

File -> Render as. I would render to an uncompressed WAV file to preserve the quality.

[solarblast]

As it turns out, I happen to have Sound Forge Audio Studio 8.0 that a friend sold me for $20 USD. I've used it sparingly on audio I've pulled off the radio to basically remove commercials. I think he uses the full version now, and tells me that he can grab a full track in the editor. Maybe my "minimalist" version will do the same if I use it as my audio editor. Worth a try anyway. I see dynamics, reverb, chorus and other effects. I don't see compression, which might come in handy to isolate voices in a room from background noise. Something to try.

It may be more effective to use your wav suggestion. I would imagine that whatever wav parameters I use (sampling, whatever) to export, could be maintained in Audacity, and I could import the wav with identical parameters as I exported?

[guns1inger]

If you install sound forge then all those filters will become available to your in Vegas. There are also plenty of VST filters around that are excellent and will work in Vegas as well.

However you cannot open an entire track in an external editor from the Vegas timeline unless it only has the one clip. The option to open the audio in Sound Forge (or another external editor) is only available at the clip level, not the timeline level. Even if you select multiple clips at the same time, only one of them will open in Sound Forge.

[solarblast]

So to simplify my audio editing of my one hour video, then I should go the wav/Audacity route?

[guns1inger]

I rarely, if ever, have to use Sound Forge when working in Vegas. I use it for audio projects, but then sometimes I use Vegas for audio only projects, because Vegas has very well developed audio editing capabilities. There is very little that I can do in Sound Forge (or Audacity, for that matter) that I cannot do as well or better in Vegas directly. That includes editing and processing.

[solarblast]

As I think about this more, it may be that Audacity may not fit the bill anyway. On this little project I have my usual voice from the presenters on one audio track, and filler music that I have on another track. If it only handles one track, then applying a dynamic effect will miss a track. Well, some experimenting should discover that.

[guns1inger]

Audicty eotks quite happily with multiple tracks, as does Vegas. Audacity even has a plugin that will automagically vary the volume of one track to fit it under another - basically for putting commentaries over sound tracks or music under voice tracks. I haven't used it, and it is apparently pretty slow. Search this forum for details. It might have been called Track Duck or similar.

Again, Vegas is perfect for this. Lay the two audio tracks down side by side, and use a volume envelope on the tracks to get the mix. No need to leave Vegas at all.

Personally I think you are making this project much more difficult than it need to be.

[solarblast]

Perhaps, but I'd like to know what is going on before jumping into something and then finding out there was a really simple way, or that I have to back out of what I've done. I'm not on a time schedule for the project*, so I can afford to do some thinking and experimenting with it.

I've gotten myself into an audio bind in the past by just accepting what I hear from my very simple speaker set up, then to find out people can't hear it well or it is very uneven. Two reviewer friends pointed of my first draft with unedited sound that they had difficulty sometimes understanding the (human) speakers. I knew that, and it's definitely repairable now that other matters were addressed. Visually, this project is looking very good. I hope to finish it this weekend.

* It was sort of on an enforced timeline earlier when I had no idea how to make this innocent attempt to make a 90 - 120 minute physics presentation to some school kids into something understandable. It was happenstance that I took my camera to video it. I had no prior knowledge as to how they would proceed. It now has a better feel and look than even the presenters thought was there--including myself. Neither they nor I had any intention to make this into something they could use to promote their effort. It's been lots of fun.

Cheers.

[guns1inger]

Get yourself a good set of headphones for audio work. They are cheaper than a good set of monitor speakers, and will improve your work a lot. You don't have to spend a fortune on them, but get as good as you can afford. Don't get bud type or cheap foam head phones, get full ear covering ones.

Also, have a look at this plugin : http://www.kvraudio.com/developer_challenge/2006/PushTec1.2.zip which can do wonders when trying to isolate parts of an audio clip.

[solarblast]

I have a cheap set. They work fine for this effort. Somewhere in the garage I have a very good set from 20 years ago.

In the simplest form of finishing up the audio for this project and getting the volume right, it's really just a matter of looking at each audio event, playing it, and watching the mixer. If it goes red, then the volume needs to go lower. I just need to make sure the audio is up around 6 dB. I don't think I have any clarity issues, but do have abrupt increases in volume from explosions, and deliberate pops, kids reacting to static discharges, etc.

At this stage, I really don't mind experimenting with compression, dynamics, or whatever. My save "out" is the mixer. However, there's a limit to how much I'm willing to do. I'm not getting paid for this, and I'm doing it as a favor to the organization that made the presentation. They didn't expect this, but do appreciate it. I by no means do video projects on a regular basis. Just stuff that looks like fun and helpful to someone. I have other interests that take up my time. This effort is particularly fun. I sent them a 75 sec trailer.

I'll take a look at your url. Sounds interesting. I may need it some day. Audio looks like fun, and I'll explore it more fully another day--after this project.