DVD to XviD - weird question

[45tripp]

Are you implying I did?

of course not
that was my impersonation of innocence...

A waste of time, if you ask me,
Me, I like them fast. RemoveGrain() twice, maybe, as well as a couple of Undots.

that depends.
fast is nice.

Slow filtering is all very well and good if you have the time, but, in my opinion, it's not worth the minor gain in quality.

well,
it's a pretty shitty source.

It's not JUST the XviD version, because I got a terrible quality AVI when encoding the entire VOB.

So what could it be? My encode of the sample m2v I uploaded was PERFECT. My encode of the entire VOB extracted from the DVD is TERRIBLE. The settings in both of the encodes were identical.

It has to be the video bitrate..? My sample encode bitrate is at 2366kb/s while my complete encode is at 760kb/s.

settings are not the same then,
or rather are close to exact, when they should be analogous.

first cropping vs no cropping is a significant dif.

second i can only guess you set file size encoding of the sample to: A MB
and also set the file size of the vob to: A MB
when it shoud be: 3xA MB (or whatever)



tripp

[m_ad]

second i can only guess you set file size encoding of the sample to: A MB
and also set the file size of the vob to: A MB
when it shoud be: 3xA MB (or whatever)




tripp

I figured this out, I might have to go back to Gordian Knot because again, I want 480x352 and AutoGK won't allow me to do this (I don't think). Take a look at my last post on page 2, I've edited it with a more significant question

[m_ad]

I'm still comparing my video to the same scene released video and mine is worse. Still pixelly but not as much as before. Same bitrate, everything.

I don't know..................

[poisondeathray]

It has to be the video bitrate..? My sample encode bitrate is at 2366kb/s while my complete encode is at 760kb/s.

But how do I fix this?

Ok, I have increased the filesize of the video to 75mb. This increased the video quality, but not as much as I want it to

I also go back to my old question: if I'm going to use different bitrates (and filesizes) for all 14 episodes depending on how long they are, how am I going to fit them on 700mb CD? Trial and error?

XviD bitrate control is poor IMO and it is worse on small filesizes. What did you enter for the desired bitrate for the sample encode, and how long was the duration? Same question for the longer complete version?

Your goal was ~800kb/s to fit 1CD, correct? So on the longer file (which is more indicative of results) you ended up with 760kb/s which is just a bit lower than your goal - so I don't see what the problem is. You are just undershooting the goal a bit (as I said earlier is common for most XviD builds).

Also, if you rip the DVD as 1 big file, instead of 14 shorter episodes, the time horizon for bitrate calculation is longer and more accurate. I'm not sure if this is an option for you.

I already asked this, but is there a reason why you chose XviD? If it's for a standalone DivX player, why not put it on 1DVD (4.3GB)? You would have much more bitrate headroom.

XviD quality is piss poor compared to h264 at lower bitrates, it has no inloop deblocking. I am willing to bet you could go lower than ~500kb/s for h264 and still have better quality than ~1000kb/s for xvid on anime/cartoon style genres.

As for why someone else got better results with XviD with the same bitrate there are many factors: the difference could be in their processing (filtering), or encoding settings. Many XviD encoders use custom quantization matrices (CQMs) - there are 100s made by many authors if you look around. Some are very specific for anime/cartoons. You might look for the "low bitrate matrix", or "CG-Animation Matrix". Some "scene" groups have their custom ones like "_scene.group.A's_uberL33T.cartoon.matrix"

Some XviD builds are better than others. Tripp already mentioned XviD builds with adaptive quantization or VAQ. This was ported to XviD from x264 and can make a big difference in dark scenes, but less so with anime IMO. But it might be worth giving a try.

[FulciLives]

Just do a single pass or 1-pass quantizer encode with a setting of 3 and filter it or do what I did and do no filtering and do a quantizer of 2 although at that rate it will fill up a DVD disc.

What about trying to do what I did with XVID4PSP since it is freeware

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[m_ad]

As for why someone else got better results with XviD with the same bitrate there are many factors: the difference could be in their processing (filtering), or encoding settings. Many XviD encoders use custom quantization matrices (CQMs) - there are 100s made by many authors if you look around. Some are very specific for anime/cartoons. You might look for the "low bitrate matrix", or "CG-Animation Matrix". Some "scene" groups have their custom ones like "_scene.group.A's_uberL33T.cartoon.matrix" .

I'm looking into this. How do I load a custom matrices? Not finding much information from google

hmm, I see something called ffdshow, but I have no clue how to incorporate this into my encode process

[poisondeathray]

If you are still using vdub, hit (1) "more" beside the profile @ level setting, (2) drop down menu select "mpeg custom" (3) Load Matrix

ffdshow is for post processing. If you want to use it for encoding (not decoding) you need to use DirectShow based encoding. Something like DirectShowSource(), with MPEG2 enabled in the ffdshow configuration. This bypasses whatever you did with DGIndex, so not recommended. Also anything you can do with the ffdshow filters, you can do with easily .avs scripts (and even more). Most of the ffdshow options were actually ported from avisynth

IMO the biggest difference between XviD encode quality with same bitrate is filtering choice (avisynth), especially with anime. The encoder settings are limited to only a few settings (unlike x264CLI encoder which has many), so it's less of a factor. CQM's can make a significant difference with specific genres.

[m_ad]

If you are still using vdub, hit (1) "more" beside the profile @ level setting, (2) drop down menu select "mpeg custom" (3) Load Matrix

Thanks a lot for the info. I'm having trouble finding custom matrices though

I'll keep looking...

EDIT: are you saying that you don't think trying a CQM is worth the trouble, because more of the difference lies within the filtering process?

EDIT2: I'm trying this one: http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=787311&postcount=19

Seems to be the only "low bitrate matrix" I can find

[manono]

I figured this out, I might have to go back to Gordian Knot because again, I want 480x352 and AutoGK won't allow me to do this (I don't think)

Have you tried, and set 480 as the Width (Advanced Settings)? And you're whining about it looking horrible at a bitrate of 760? And what resolution? 640x480? Did you really expect it to look any better at that resolution and that bitrate?

I'm looking into this. How do I load a custom matrices?

If the scene release you admire so much was a real scene release, then it didn't use Custom Matrices as they aren't allowed to. Quite a few standalone DVD/MPEG-4 players won't play them correctly or at all.

[poisondeathray]

By far the biggest difference will be from avisynth filter choice/settings.

For XviD CQM's can make a difference, even with VAQ builds (because the VAQ for XviD is not as effective as x264's version). If you go back and look at some of the older anime scene group releases, some of them have a certain "look" to them - that is largely from a specific set of filtering, but also partly from a specifc CQM. Some of them are not public (i.e closely guarded). I guess Manono says CQM's are not allowed by "scene rulez." He would know more than me about that.

It's up to you if you're willing to spend time to test & learn about CQM's. But you should definitely learn about avisynth. That's the more important one to learn about and I'm sure everyone will agree.

Tripp pointed this cool site out to me a while back, it has examples of different filters, and you can "mouse over" to see the effects
http://www.aquilinestudios.org/avsfilters/

It's great to learn about new stuff, but be careful to not develop "filteritis". KISS principle is always best IMO

[m_ad]

I figured this out, I might have to go back to Gordian Knot because again, I want 480x352 and AutoGK won't allow me to do this (I don't think)

Have you tried, and set 480 as the Width (Advanced Settings)? And you're whining about it looking horrible at a bitrate of 760? And what resolution? 640x480? Did you really expect it to look any better at that resolution and that bitrate?

I'm looking into this. How do I load a custom matrices?

If the scene release you admire so much was a real scene release, then it didn't use Custom Matrices as they aren't allowed to. Quite a few standalone DVD/MPEG-4 players won't play them correctly or at all.

A. I'm not whining. Simply somewhat of a newbie attempting to convert my movies to XviD. I appreciate everyones input a lot.

B. The only reason I "praise" the scene release is because the quality looks no worse than the source. My encodes are the SAME resolution and SAME bitrate. Why are mine worse quality?

[manono]

My encodes are the SAME resolution and SAME bitrate. Why are mine worse quality?

I won't answer that question as my Mother always told me that if I can't say something nice not to say anything at all.

If they're the SAME resolution and SAME bitrate as you claim, why are you also saying AutoGK won't let you make them for 480x352? What resolution were you getting out of AutoGK?

[poisondeathray]

EDIT2: I'm trying this one: http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=787311&postcount=19

Seems to be the only "low bitrate matrix" I can find

No, that is an AVC (h264) matrix

[poisondeathray]

I found some older matrices for you to play with. These are generic ones.

I still recommend spending more time with avisynth, and less time with CQM's.



xvidquantmatrices.zip

[45tripp]

my, this thread just keeps going on...

and as it has,
i'm interested in seeing sample of this mythical scene release.
preferably a better sample (better scene selection) than the one you provided,
with the corresponding raw source.

I also go back to my old question: if I'm going to use different bitrates (and filesizes) for all 14 episodes depending on how long they are, how am I going to fit them on 700mb CD? Trial and error?

i'm pretty sure manono answered this already.
read back.

i'm also sure i answered it myself.
i said using autogk is backward in method for what you want.
and proposed alternatives.

I figured this out, I might have to go back toGordian Knot

and said that gordian knot is deprecated.

What about trying to do what I did with XVID4PSP since it is freeware

another fair suggestion.

Tripp already mentioned XviD builds with adaptive quantization or VAQ.
but less so with anime IMO. But it might be worth giving a try.

it should work well

EDIT: are you saying that you don't think trying a CQM is worth the trouble?

probably not.
stick to the basics.

If the scene release you admire so much was a real scene release, then it didn't use Custom Matrices as they aren't allowed to. Quite a few standalone DVD/MPEG-4 players won't play them correctly or at all.

interesting.

(and avc is certainly not twice as effiecient as mpeg4-asp)


tripp

[poisondeathray]

(and avc is certainly not twice as effiecient as mpeg4-asp)

tripp

Tripp surely you're joking right?

On average x264 offers between 20-70% better compression, more so at lower bitrates. With anime at lower bitrates like this scenario it easily averages 50% better. Furthermore, this applies not only to anime but other genres

Same script for both, DGIndex using forced film

MPEG2Source("VTS_01_1.demuxed.forcedfilm.d2v")
ColorMatrix()
Crop(38,22,-38,-26)
LanczosResize(576,432) 
Deen()

XviD 1.2.0.dev47 VAQ build
I used all HQ settings: ie VHQ 4, Motion Search 6,..etc..
Video download
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=IID82PJH

x264 r998
I used Anime-EQ profile in MeGUI (not the highest quality profile)
Video download
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=I3RKUJ55


Original



XviD video bitrate 804kbps



x264 video bitrate 394kbps



x264 (non-anime settings) 405kbps
(e.g. if your intention was to keep white speck background noise & look closer to original)



#2 Orignal



#2 xvid 804kbps



#2 x264 397kbps



Look at the outlining/haloing in the XviD video, despite having 2x the bitrate/filesize. Look at his lower cape at the blue part, how the XviD video shows distortion, while on the x264 video it's uniform. Save these pictures to your destop and flip back & forth with Windows picture viewer. Also, this isn't just with 1 frame. All frames are better with x264. Please look at the videos closely.

I find with a 1 simple denoiser, encoding is much faster (you only see about 10-15% drop in speed vs. unfiltered compared to sometimes 400-500% drop using a multi-filtering scheme) - again, personal preference

I assure you that x264 is ALWAYS better than XviD for video quality at the same bitrate for ANY genre, and offers 20-70% (sometimes over 100% better) compression


[slightly offtopic]

What about real life? You bet x264 is better. Here are shots from an AVCHD camcorder. Same script used for both, XviD HQ settings VAQ build, x264 r994 using HQ settings

XviD video bitrate - 2258kbps


x264 video bitrate - 1008kbps


XviD video bitrate - 1030kbps


XviD starts to come close at about 2.5-3x size. x264cli FTW.

Don't take my word for it: please do some testing on your own, and reach your own conclusions.

[/sorry for the slight off topic]


EDIT: Added original screenshots

[m_ad]

okay, I've taken your guys advice and I'm going to encode all of these manually. I'm learning all the plugins, and I'm still experimenting/searching for the quickest, but efficient noise filter. I'm trying deen(), but it seems slow also. I'm going to try manono's RemoveGrain()

Also, all the tutorials I'm reading tell me (to mux my audio) to go to the Streams menu in VDub. There's no such menu (I want VBR audio - I'm using BeSweet to encode ac3 to mp3.)

[poisondeathray]

Also, all the tutorials I'm reading tell me (to mux my audio) to go to the Streams menu in VDub. There's no such menu.

You can do it separately (e.g. encode AC3=> to mp3) with a different application like LameXP or Belight, then mux it with the video with avimux-gui, entering the delay written in the demuxed file (e.g. AD T01 2_0ch 192Kbps DELAY 72ms.ac3, the delay would be 72ms)

or you can use AudioDub() in the .avs file to specify both audio and video to feed both into vdub. The DGMPGdec quickstart manual tells how to do this (it's only 1 page long)

[45tripp]

Tripp surely you're joking right?

no

XviD video bitrate 804kbps
x264 video bitrate 394kbps

that's unfair and wrong on several counts.

I assure you that x264 is ALWAYS better than XviD for video quality at the same bitrate for ANY genre

'always' and 'any' are strong words.
also wrong.

i'm not knocking avc or arguing it's efficiency.
but i don't like to overstate things either.

yes avc is more efficient,
yes the lower the bitrate the more the advantage.
yes x264 keeps getting better.
yes it's superior.
i'd not argue that

Don't take my word for it: please do some testing on your own, and reach your own conclusions.

i have.

Also, all the tutorials I'm reading tell me (to mux my audio) to go to the Streams menu in VDub. There's no such menu

that's vdubmod.
with vdub,
so to 'audio'->'audio from other file'


(besweet lol, never liked it)

[poisondeathray]

XviD video bitrate 804kbps
x264 video bitrate 394kbps

that's unfair and wrong on several counts.

'always' and 'any' are strong words.
also wrong.

My statement was on average you get 20-70% better compression depending on several factors, but in some cases you get >100% compression. This correlates with my testing. Just sharing observations.

I agree. I may have overstated the case, I apologize and shouldn't have used "always" - but I have yet to see 1 example where xvid can offer better quality than a recent build of x264 at the same bitrate using decent settings.

Can you explain why the comparison is unfair? or suggest how I could improve it?

(not trying to argue with you Tripp, just trying to learn here)

[m_ad]

After much failure with XviD encodings, I'm headed to h264 to see if I have better luck. Using FairUse Wizard.. any other suggestions?

Just did my first h264 encode and it looks GREAT! FairUse Wizard was easy, took a little longer than I would like but.. quality over time (for me.)

My only complaint: FairUse Wizard = $

Now looking at this tutorial..

Or another tutorial on how to do encode h264 with my Linux box

[45tripp]

Can you explain why the comparison is unfair? or suggest how I could improve it?

which one is truer to source?
one might look better (and i disagree here too btw), especially in absence of
it's relation to source, but i'd call that coincidental.

anyway, way off topic.
i was merely saying i think you overstated.

and as it has,
i'm interested in seeing sample of this mythical scene release.
preferably a better sample (better scene selection) than the one you provided,
with the corresponding raw source.

i'm waiting btw.

After much failure with XviD encodings, I'm headed to h264

i thought you had reason for xvid, like maybe playback on a divx player...


tripp

[m_ad]

i thought you had reason for xvid, like maybe playback on a divx player...


tripp

I did, but at this point I've given up on that. I only want to put them on my hard drive now


what's a standard resolution for x264 encodes?

[45tripp]

I did, but at this point I've given up on that. I only want to put them on my hard drive now

well that's defeatist...

cut me a sample of this 'scene' clip
and cut the same scene from the dvd,
upload.

they didn;t use magic you know...

what's a standard resolution for x264 encodes?

there isn't one

[m_ad]

cut me a sample of this 'scene' clip
and cut the same scene from the dvd,
upload.

they didn;t use magic you know...

Thanks for sticking with me tripp and putting up with my newbie-ness


You'll have to remind me how to cut a sample from an avi.. same way as the vob?

[45tripp]

no.

put it into vdub.
mark out a section with the arrows at the bottom, the ones furthest right.
set 'video' to 'direct stream copy'
'save as' a new avi.

[FulciLives]

For recording to H.264 MP4 (aka x264 or AVC or whatever you want to call it) then I suggest ... as I already mentioned ... to use XVID4PSP and yes this is freeware software.

My suggestion is to use DGMPGDec DGIndex to create a D2V project file (and demux the audio). Then load the D2V and audio file into XVID4PSP. Make sure you use the same version that it uses ... you can find it under PROGRAM FILES ---> WINNYDOWS ---> XVID4PSP5 ---> APPS ---> DGMPGDec (it appears the current version 5.035 of XVID4PSP is using version 1.5.0 RC2 of DGMPGDec/DGIndex).

There are many MP4 profiles or formats as the program calls them ... I would use the PS3/XBOX 360 profile as it will create a very high quality Level 4.1 H.264 video file that is also DXVA compatible. That may sound like "geek speak" but that is what you want 8)

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[FulciLives]

Well it has been just over two weeks now.

Curious how the project is coming along.

Any updates?

Wouldn't mind seeing some screen shots or uploaded footage samples.

Always nice to have a happy ending

- John "FulciLives" Coleman