Backup of a dvd movie using Ripit4me, Dvd Decrypter, and Dvd Shrink 3.2

[Gerald Sr.]

I had tried to make a backup of Men In Black movie using Ripit4me, Dvd Decrypter, and Dvd Shrink 3.2. First, I started with Ripit4me and it ripped through all of the Men In Black movie files. It switch to Dvd Shrink, and I clicked on the backup button. Shrink encoded the movie and it automatically switched to the burner. Finally, the movie was burned to a dvd.
I tried the dvd in a player and nothing came up on the screen, as a matter of fact, it did play period. I checked the dvd to see if anything was on there, however, it showed a file. What am I doing wrong in backing up this dvd?

[guns1inger]

What did Shrink burn with ? I am assuming DVD Decrypter, but it could also be Nero depending on how you set it up.

What is on the DVD ?

Does the DVD play in your PC ?

If you backup to a folder on your HDD (an option in Shrink when you hit Backup), what do you get ? Can you play this ?

[Gerald Sr.]

The dvd was burned by Nero. This was what on the dvd: Session 01 (4,466MB), Track 01: 0 4,572,224MB, UDF/ISO 9660(Mode 1). The dvd played in my pc, but a lot of green horizontal lines came across the screen. It was saved in DVD VIDEO folder, I clicked on one of the file and the movie played in the computer. I placed it in the dvd player and a message came up on the screen: Unknown disc, please check disc again.

[hech54]

Friends don't let friends use Nero......especially to burn a video DVD.
Use ImgBurn.

[Gerald Sr.]

Hi1 Hech54, I downloaded Imgburn. First, I opened Imgburn and clicked on "Create file from disc".. Second, I clicked on "Browse for a file" button and noticed it says: Destination:\DVD_VIDEO.ISO. Finally, I clicked on the green READ button and I get a an error. It says: Retry failed - Reason -Read of scrambled sector without authentication. The instruction stated: Click the 'Browse for a file' button and select a name and location for the destination image file Or just accept the one generated by the program. I gave the file a name and saved it it my D: drive, however, I still received that same error. Please tell me what am I doing wrong?

[hech54]

"Write Image File To Disc" if you already have an .ISO image on your hard drive.

[guns1inger]

You cannot use Imgburn to make an ISO of a protected disc. Use DVDFab HD Decrypter to rip the disc to your HDD. Use DVD Rebuilder to compress it if necessary. Burn the results to a blank DVD with Imgburn. In Build Mode you do not have to have an ISO file - you can select the Video_TS folder instead.

[CobraPilot]

My experience with Nero, vs. the "friends don't let friends use Nero" perspective:

I've used it version 5.x through 7.x, NEVER had a problem except when using VERY sub-standard media. It has worked using media that others claim isn't worth considering. This includes use on FIVE different burners.

(Never had a need or reason to use Imgburn, so I can't comment on it, but others find it excellent.)

Your mileage may vary, of course.

[jman98]

My experience with Nero, vs. the "friends don't let friends use Nero" perspective:

I've used it version 5.x through 7.x, NEVER had a problem except when using VERY sub-standard media. It has worked using media that others claim isn't worth considering. This includes use on FIVE different burners.

I'm sure that's true, but while you are crowing about how wonderful Nero is, did you know that Nero compresses your video so that your BUP and IFO files are in the same block? Do you know what this means? Ideally they will be placed in different blocks so that if one of those blocks goes bad, the other one will still be OK and you can play the disc. By placing them in the same block, it ensures that if that block goes bad that it takes out both of them and the disc can't be played. The whole reason that BUPs exist is to provide a backup and Nero has needlessly figured out a way to kill the entire reason for them existing. Nice. When I learned that Nero did that, I stopped using it. I still have some old Nero burned discs and because they were on quality media, they still play, but it's just so unnecessary for Nero to do this. Yes, the odds of this happening are low, but I can't think of any logical reason to set up myself up to maybe have a problem with this, so I started using ImgBurn. Also, in the early days of DL media, we had many reports of Nero not burning them correctly. As best I could determine Nero was OK for DVD+R DL but it had a lot of problems burning DVD-R DL discs and I have no idea if those were ever fixed or not.

[eon_designs]

Is the Nero and BUP/IFO file in the same block issue related to just burning a DVD Video after it has been ripped to the HardDrive (By say DVDFab) or is it only related to using Nero Recode to compress the Video down to a smaller size?

Many thanks.

[jman98]

The Nero issue has nothing to do with Nero Recode. If you drag and drop your VIDEO_TS files into Nero to burn a DVD, it will always put the BUP/IFOs in the same block. If you rip the only way I know of to be sure that your BUPs and IFOs are in different blocks is to use PgcEdit to create an ISO as it has an option when creating an ISO to always put 32k gaps between them (this ensures that the IFO and its BPU aren't in the same block). Theoretically if the DVD was mastered to have 32k gap blocks and you rip it in ISO mode to make an image, it should preserve this in the ripped copy. But I prefer to rip in file mode as I can make changes if necessary like go straight to the main menu and skip intro crap like FBI warnings and then I use PgcEdit to create my ISOs and burn with ImgBurn.

[Seeker47]

The Nero issue has nothing to do with Nero Recode. If you drag and drop your VIDEO_TS files into Nero to burn a DVD, it will always put the BUP/IFOs in the same block. If you rip the only way I know of to be sure that your BUPs and IFOs are in different blocks is to use PgcEdit to create an ISO as it has an option when creating an ISO to always put 32k gaps between them (this ensures that the IFO and its BPU aren't in the same block). Theoretically if the DVD was mastered to have 32k gap blocks and you rip it in ISO mode to make an image, it should preserve this in the ripped copy. But I prefer to rip in file mode as I can make changes if necessary like go straight to the main menu and skip intro crap like FBI warnings and then I use PgcEdit to create my ISOs and burn with ImgBurn.

Since Nero burning is the default for Shrink -- which has long been my standard tool, in part due to sheer convenience, even if no shrinking is taking place -- that is not good news. (I switched to using ImageBurn for DL jobs some time ago.) So, there is no good and quick way to redo some of those discs with separate BUP/IFO blocks ? I mean, something like making a remedial copy: if they all had to be done over completely from scratch, forget it -- I'll just take my chances.

The changes you refer to making amount to too much time and effort per disc (in my opinion), for most routine jobs. It would be great if the settings in Fab Decrypter for things like the warnings removal actually worked, but in my experience it hasn't. There is just the full rip, and I suppose we should be glad to have that.

[CobraPilot]

"I'm sure that's true [yes, it IS], but while you are crowing about how wonderful Nero is . . . ."

Hmmmm..... I look in vain for any sense that I was crowing about the virtues (if any) of Nero; I just stated my experience and a disclaimer; i.e., "Your mileage my vary."

"Yes, the odds of this happening are low . . . "

Yep. In my case ZERO instances to date. Of course, within the laws of probability, every one from now on might be a problem . . . . (I know about this catastrophic "problem"; been a member here a wee bit longer than you have, jman98.)

"Also, in the early days of DL media, we had many reports of Nero not burning them correctly."

While this is no longer the "early days of DL media," even today, with the various ways to compress video to more-than-acceptable viewing quality as far as my semi-calibrated eyeballs can discern, gambling on not making a coaster out of a $1-$2 DL DVDR vs. a $0.15-$0.30 SL DVDR has just never seemed like a good bet . . . .

And, since you admit to not knowing if the alleged DL burning problem was ever fixed, I'm wondering if you're 100% sure the IFO/BUP-in-the-same-sector problem hasn't been fixed.

Just wondering . . . .

[VegasBud]

CobraPilot,

Concerning:

And, since you admit to not knowing if the alleged DL burning problem was ever fixed, I'm wondering if you're 100% sure the IFO/BUP-in-the-same-sector problem hasn't been fixed.

Actually, you'll never find an IFO/BUP pair in the same sector. The problem is when the IFO/BUP pair is in the 16 sectors covered by a given ECC block. It isn't unique to DL, and applies equally to SL.

Like many people, I no longer use nero for burning (anything), so I don't have a recent version for testing. If you have the latest version, you can test it, and let us know if they ever fixed the problem.

Since the worst case scenario would be both the VIDEO_TS.IFO and VIDEO_TS.BUP in the same ECC block, that would provide the most telling result. The steps you would follow for testing would be:

1) The easiest way to obtain a set of test files is by using "Re-author" in DvdShrink to get the movie only. Make sure "Create VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS subfolders" is checked in the "Backup DVD" dialog box.

2) Burn the VIDEO_TS - AUDIO_TS structure to a dvd with nero.

3) Start DvdDecrypter, press F6 to enable debug mode, and insert the disk you just burned. In the log window, it will show the LBA range used for each file.

4) Subtract the start LBA of VIDEO_TS.IFO from the start LBA of VIDEO_TS.BUP.
If the number you get is less than 16, nero hasn't fixed the problem.
If it's 16 or greater, nero has fixed the problem, in which case you should probably note the version of nero you used (for future reference).

[CobraPilot]

Thanks for the "formula" for checking out this alleged problem, VegasBud.

If I'm following your methodology correctly, here's what DvdDecrypter's debug mode shows on a disc I burned with Nero 6.6.0.18:

File System - File: VIDEO_TS.BUP - LBA: 1323 - 1334
File System - File: VIDEO_TS.IFO - LBA: 296 - 307

(Between these two files: File System - File: VIDEO_TS.VOB - LBA: 308 - 1322)

I reversed the order from what debug shows, to make it easier to do the subtraction onscreen. Since 1323-296 is a whole lot more than 16, does this mean the problem has been fixed?

Would this also mean that Nero's been getting something of a bum rap awhile, since we're now into Nero 9x?

[guns1inger]

Imgburn's installed space requirement is less than 2 MB and does all the useful things that Nero does.

The official spec for Nero 9, if all components are installed, is 1.5GB. Even if you only install the minimum components required for burning you are wasting a lot of disc space. (If you do install and use the all the components of Nero 9, the actual "optimal" space requirement starts to get up to around 60GB).

It just isn't worth the space, let alone the money.

[VegasBud]

CobraPilot,

The most likely explanation for what you describe is the test fileset you used contained a VIDEO_TS.VOB file that occupied LBA range 308-1322 (1,015 blocks or a little more that 2 MB). Since the files on the disk are arranged as IFO, then VOB, then BUP, there can't be a VIDEO_TS.VOB or it screws up the test.

In DvdShrink did you reauthor to movie only? That should have given you a test fileset that contained no VIDEO_TS.VOB, with VIDEO_TS.IFO and VIDEO_TS.BUP files sized about 6 KB (3 sectors) each.

By the way, on reading my earlier post, I see that I made a mistake...in step 4, after subtracting, you should get a minimum of 17 sectors, not 16 (as I said). I apologize for the error...it appears my fingers got ahead of my brain while I was typing.

Edit:
Crap...I just noticed that you did say there was a VIDEO_TS.VOB file between the IFO and BUP files. It appears my brain is slower than my fingers and my eyes.

[CobraPilot]

Well, DUH on me! *I* overlooked your guidance about a "movie only" reauthor!

I had a full-dvd rip handy and grabbed that in haste. Here are the results of three different "movie only" rips:

File System - File: VIDEO_TS.IFO - LBA: 278 - 280
File System - File: VIDEO_TS.BUP - LBA: 281 - 283
File System - File: VTS_01_0.IFO - LBA: 284 - 313
File System - File: VTS_01_1.VOB - LBA: 314 - 524600
_________________________

File System - File: VIDEO_TS.IFO - LBA: 278 - 280
File System - File: VIDEO_TS.BUP - LBA: 281 - 283
File System - File: VTS_01_0.IFO - LBA: 284 - 315
File System - File: VTS_01_1.VOB - LBA: 316 - 524602
_________________________

File System - File: VIDEO_TS.IFO - LBA: 278 - 280
File System - File: VIDEO_TS.BUP - LBA: 281 - 283
File System - File: VTS_01_0.IFO - LBA: 284 - 313
File System - File: VTS_01_1.VOB - LBA: 314 - 524600

So, it would appear all three violate the "17-sector" rule. However, do I understand the problem to be that such a close proximity to each other means that if one becomes damaged/corrupted, the other is likely to be the same, rendering the DVD unusable?

If so, is this only (primarily?) a problem with a "movie only" rip? As in my first analysis post, a "full dvd" rip puts the IFO and associated BUP far apart.

[Guns1inger, your comments duly noted.]

[VegasBud]

CobraPilot,

First things first...the subtraction value in my first post was correct (a value of 16), and the correction (in my second post) to a value of 17 was incorrect. Sorry about that. I really need to stop posting late at night.

...I understand the problem to be that such a close proximity to each other means that if one becomes damaged/corrupted, the other is likely to be the same, rendering the DVD unusable?

That's correct. If the damage to the data in sectors covered by a given ECC block exceed it's ability to repair the damage, both files are likely to be unusable, which is unfortunate because the purpose of the BUP file is to still let the disk function even if the IFO file is damaged. When both files can be taken out by the same damage, it defeats the purpose of having the BUP file, and reduces the robustness of a dvd-video disk.

...is this only (primarily?) a problem with a "movie only" rip?

It's not the only way, just the easiest way to get a test fileset. Primarily? I'm not sure I have an answer for that. It depends on how the dvd was authored. In any case where the size of VIDEO_TS.IFO plus the size of VIDEO_TS.VOB (if it exists) is less than 32k, this "liability" occurs when using nero to burn the disk, but doesn't occur when using ImgBurn to burn the same disk, which is why many people recommend using ImgBurn for burning dvd-video disks.