List of "really true native" 24P 1920x1080 AVCHD camcorders

[steven_alexander]

" $2K iMac " with what software?

Why do you want 24p? Please explain in as much detail as you can. We may be able to steer you.

What is your camcorder budget? Include tripod, lighting, audio, lenses, and additional software.

I want 24P for the same reasons most people dealing with video want it. It's an option. I want something I can grow with so that means frame rate choices. I want to work with different frame rates to get the most out the different videos I will make. Some will be sports, some at church functions, some with low lighting, etc. As I alluded to before I am not a pro. I like to keep my camcorder price under $1500. I purchase one piece at a time so will look at lighting, lenses, etc as needed. I already have a tripod. I want a camcorder that is easy to get on my new iMac without having to go through a lot of converting this and adjusting that. I just got the computer (which means it has the standard issue for this model)so I do not know what software I will need to produce a quality DVD. It seems that the Canon lines have the options I am looking for but I would like to find out what the other manufacturers are putting out.

[steven_alexander]

I think the common definition is < $2K for "consumer" ; but more importantly what distinguishes "consumer" models is the limited manual controls and audio inputs

There are none that I know of that offer 24pN <$1K , except the HV40 mentioned above , which is HDV & tape based

Really? <$2K?
I thought the $1K-$2K was the semi-pro level or those moving to pro level. Well, I guess you are either a pro or you are not. There is no in-between.

I am a novice at this so I would like to get educated. How much control do you want in making a video? Or what do you want to manually control when you make a video? Also, the audio inputs. What kind of inputs would you want? Are you speaking of different input jacks such as 1/8", xlr, surround, etc?

[poisondeathray]

Yes , things like XLR audio , manual controls over focus, zooom , shutter speed, focus , zebras , etc...

Consumer models are usually geared for "point and shoot" market , many functions are automated sometimes the settings aren't perfectly ideal for various shooting situations

Well the distinctions are quite arbitrary, but definitely you can draw a solid distinction where pro camcorders have more controls, and low end ones start around $2-3K. These days, the "consumer" models tend to be CMOS and single sensor , where most pro models use 3 - this is just a trend, not a solid distinction

I guess the "semi-pro" market you refer to could be called "prosumer" , e.g. the HMC40 would fill this gap . For example, it doesn't have XLR audio, but that's a separate addon, but it still has more manual controls than the standard consumer models

You mentioned your new computer: Folks using MacOS have to log & transfer AVCHD and it usually gets converted to prores before editing. Native editing isn't possible on a Mac. And folks on the PC side have difficulty editing native AVCHD. Only the fastest workstations or overclocked computers can handle it realtime currently (otherwise very sluggish). Most people convert to a digital intermediate anyway or use proxy editing

[edDV]

Be back later - but add more to the why 24p?

[steven_alexander]

Be back later - but add more to the why 24p?

Is there an answer in your head that you are waiting for me to ask the right question for? Or are there questions about 24P in your head that you're waiting for me to pose? Since I am a newcomer and a novice I would greatly appreciate your experience on 24P and camcorders that has it, for or against. I mean, this is a thread to list "really truly native"...

[aedipuss]

if i were you i'd be looking for a good moderately priced 1080 60p cam, as you'd have better luck creating blur free motion. not that a decent one is in your budget, but it would be nice to have.

24p is fine if you only shoot set shots from a tripod, use a dolly or steadycam for moving shots and never shoot fast action.

i like 30p for a decent in between. i use it as a decent compromise for creating dvd and online video.

[Soopafresh]

24p doesn't give you much. It's like the Vermouth in a Martini. 8:1 is the industry standard.

[steven_alexander]

if i were you i'd be looking for a good moderately priced 1080 60p cam, as you'd have better luck creating blur free motion. not that a decent one is in your budget, but it would be nice to have.

24p is fine if you only shoot set shots from a tripod, use a dolly or steadycam for moving shots and never shoot fast action.

i like 30p for a decent in between. i use it as a decent compromise for creating dvd and online video.

Thanks aedipuss. That makes sense to me. Especially concerning the blurr. I noticed in looking at a sample a previous poster put up that the motion blurred but the still was good. I wondered why is that. So a 30p is a decent in-between? What would the 60p do for me? What models do you suggest I research?

[edDV]

Be back later - but add more to the why 24p?

Is there an answer in your head that you are waiting for me to ask the right question for? Or are there questions about 24P in your head that you're waiting for me to pose? Since I am a newcomer and a novice I would greatly appreciate your experience on 24P and camcorders that has it, for or against. I mean, this is a thread to list "really truly native"...

Thanks aedipuss. That makes sense to me. Especially concerning the blurry. I noticed in looking at a sample a previous poster put up that the motion blurred but the still was good. I wondered why is that. So a 30p is a decent in-between? What would the 60p do for me? What models do you suggest I research?

24p is a frame rate historically used for film and for various technical and economic reasons this rate won't be changed for some time.

Television runs at different frame rates for other technical and economic reasons. In "NTSC" regions frame/field rates of 29.97/59.94 are used. In "PAL" regions 25/50 rates are used. I'll use NTSC rates below.

Normal camcorder mode is 480i/1080i which produces motion samples at a 59.94 rate.

Some camcorders can run 480p/720p/1080p at 59.94 full frames per second.

Both of the above are good for hand held motion. Half rate modes produce 29.97 motion samples per second. These are often used for webcasting where progressive scan and extreme compression is required. 29.97p mode is also used for certain types of effects work. Handheld 29.97p will appear motion jerky especially when viewed on a large display.
Film 24p rate is even more motion jerky than 29.97p or 25p.

There are a set of rules used to shoot 24p film that are taught in film school. These include:

1. Camera stabilization (tripods or steadycam devices and fluid damped heads)

2. Narrow depth of field focus to separate background from object of interest. This blurs out annoying jerky background motion. To keep actors in focus, their movement is carefully choreographed. Often a second opreator or computer is assigned to "focus follow". Normal camcorder lenses have long depth of field which produces a sharp jerky background at 24p. Special adapters (shown above) allow fitting narrow depth of focus lenses to a camcorder. Optical physics dictates very long lenses to match small camcorder sensors. The larger the sensor (or film size), the shorter these lenses can be.

3. Controlled pans and zooms. Film school teaches students to avoid pans or zooms unless absolutely necessary. At 24p only certain pan speeds work without producing serious jerkiness. Added to that, "telecine" for NTSC adds un-natural "judder" to any pan or zoom.

4. Careful lighting and and exposure to help separate the object of interest from surroundings.

5. Camera techniques to assist digital encoding (e.g. for digital television, digital cinema or DVD). Cameras are stabilized or digitally motion controlled to produce MPeg efficient motion. Actor and object motion are carefully controlled by the director. Actors are taught special ways to move.

In summary, 24p requires a rules discipline for everyone involved. 24p is not useful for random camcorder shooting.

All of the above apply equally to film or video. There is a second set of issues that separate a "film look" from a "video look".

1. Film has a wide exposure latitude (dark to light) and tends to naturally saturate in bright light. Typical video cameras and video distribution uses 8bit digital luminance with black at level 16 and nominal white at level 235. This gives only 219 luminance levels. Also, video tends to clip rather than saturate with bright light. As a result, lighting and exposure are much more difficult for video vs. film.

2. Film and video have different gamma characteristics.

3. Film and video have different color characteristics. Some video "cinema" modes attempt to produce a "film look".

4. Film has grain, video has noise especially in dark areas. Lighting and exposure is used to manage video noise.

5. Film has a tendency to blur with motion. Video tends to sample motion with sharp frames.

Special "cinema" HD cameras are used by "Hollywood" to achieve a similar or superior film look. These have 12 to 16 bit depth, very large sensors matched to 35mm film lenses and shoot uncompressed or with minimal compression.

[edDV]

" $2K iMac " with what software?

Why do you want 24p? Please explain in as much detail as you can. We may be able to steer you.

What is your camcorder budget? Include tripod, lighting, audio, lenses, and additional software.

I want 24P for the same reasons most people dealing with video want it. It's an option. I want something I can grow with so that means frame rate choices. I want to work with different frame rates to get the most out the different videos I will make. Some will be sports, some at church functions, some with low lighting, etc. As I alluded to before I am not a pro. I like to keep my camcorder price under $1500. I purchase one piece at a time so will look at lighting, lenses, etc as needed. I already have a tripod. I want a camcorder that is easy to get on my new iMac without having to go through a lot of converting this and adjusting that. I just got the computer (which means it has the standard issue for this model)so I do not know what software I will need to produce a quality DVD. It seems that the Canon lines have the options I am looking for but I would like to find out what the other manufacturers are putting out.

iMovie/iDVD won't handle 24p. Those programs convert 1080i HDV or AVCHD to Apple Digital Intermediate format for editing and then encode to 720x480 MPeg2 for DVD. They do not do Blu-Ray.

For true 24p editing you will need the $999 Studio package.

I'll add to the Canon HV40 chorus if you want a semi-pro camcorder. The reasons are numerous. Read my other threads on HDV vs. AVCHD.

For 1280x720p/59.94 look to the JVC prosumer HDV models. They make the ideal hand held or sports camcorder.

[Abas-Avara]

Canon HF S10 looks good
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q358vasm3ZE&feature=related

[poisondeathray]

Canon HF S10 looks good
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q358vasm3ZE&feature=related

It doesn't shoot native 24p, the subject of this thread.

Only the new canons (hfs200, hfs21 etc...), "prosumer" models, "DSLR types", and hv40 shoot native 24p. The others are telecined (wrapped in 30i package)

[steven_alexander]

Canon HF S10 looks good
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q358vasm3ZE&feature=related

Dude, that does not look good to me. I mean I'm concentrating on the people as they pass by not necessarily at Starbucks which looks great. The people are not as defined as I would like. Maybe it looked good before the Uploader uploaded it. Still, poisondeathray is right, it does not do "native" 24P, the subject of this thread.

Anybody have any low light or night film/video they can share using different frame rates including Native 24P for comparison? To me the low light or night tests separates the "men" from the "boys".

[poisondeathray]

Have a look at camcorderinfo.com . They have lowlight tests for many consumer models, and comparison charts

e.g.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Canon-Vixia-HF-S21-Camcorder-Review-37609/Low-Lig...erformance.htm

[Soopafresh]

Anybody have any low light or night film/video they can share using different frame rates including Native 24P for comparison? To me the low light or night tests separates the "men" from the "boys".

Canon 7D


Canon 5D


5D 30p


The "Barry Lyndon" Shot

[edDV]

Low light separates by size of camera sensor(s) and lens size not to mention budget.

I still consider the DSLR's B-Roll ready. They are relatively cheap and they use EOS lenses but they suck at audio and record only to highly compressed AVCHD in short lengths.

They are a specialty camcorder but very nice for stills.

It really depends on your script and storyboard.

Also budget because a 5D/7D with lens acessories get you upwards of $3K. There is a different class of camcorders at that budget level, most with large lens and larger sensor(s).

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&source=hp&q=EF+135mm+f/2L+USM&rlz=1R2ADRA...wAg#ps-sellers
http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/controller?act=GetArticleAct&articleID=2326

[steven_alexander]

Anybody have any low light or night film/video they can share using different frame rates including Native 24P for comparison? To me the low light or night tests separates the "men" from the "boys".

Canon 7D


Canon 5D


5D 30p


The "Barry Lyndon" Shot

I have to admit that is pretty damn good. Man you really love that 7D don't you? Did you record that with just the 7D or did you use the monstrosity EDTV posted earlier in the thread? What equipment did you use in addition to the 5D or 7D? Did you do any kind of post-conversions or something? Sorry, I do not know the proper language used in the film industry.

[steven_alexander]

Low light separates by size of camera sensor(s) and lens size not to mention budget.

I still consider the DSLR's B-Roll ready. They are relatively cheap and they use EOS lenses but they suck at audio and record only to highly compressed AVCHD in short lengths.

They are a specialty camcorder but very nice for stills.

What's do you mean by "B-Roll ready"? Yeah, that sucks that the cam produces such quality and is so limited.

[edDV]

Low light separates by size of camera sensor(s) and lens size not to mention budget.

I still consider the DSLR's B-Roll ready. They are relatively cheap and they use EOS lenses but they suck at audio and record only to highly compressed AVCHD in short lengths.

They are a specialty camcorder but very nice for stills.

What's do you mean by "B-Roll ready"? Yeah, that sucks that the cam produces such quality and is so limited.

B-Roll is second cam for specialty shots. A true camcorder anchors the A-Roll.

I suggest you start with a semi-pro cam to learn the craft. You will find the limitations and then select the next cam for what you need.

The example shots shown above had a good ambient light level from street lights (black level) and very bright window lighting for contrast. If a Sony V1 was used for same shots, the only difference would be depth of field effects. Also you aren't watching on a large HDTV. This is SD quality.

Check the LaForet "Reverie" demo in the Canon link above on an HDTV or your best monitor. These cameras are getting better but you will see the noise and compression artifacts.

Again it depends on what you are after. If you don't know, start cheap. You still need to spend a ton on software and learn it. Cameras will advance and get cheaper during that time.

[Soopafresh]

I have to admit that is pretty damn good. Man you really love that 7D don't you? Did you record that with just the 7D or did you use the monstrosity EDTV posted earlier in the thread? What equipment did you use in addition to the 5D or 7D? Did you do any kind of post-conversions or something? Sorry, I do not know the proper language used in the film industry.

Those clips I posted are just results of Vimeo searches on their website. I like the 7D mostly for the price. $1500 for the body and with an EOS adapter, you can attach Nikon (Nikkor) lenses which sell for nothing on eBay. The best of that line is the $4500 1D which is even better in low light situations. As ed mentioned, there are limitations with DSLR camcorders, but it all depends on what your requirements are and what you're willing to put up with. I personally love short depth of field shots, of which these camcorders are particularly well suited so I'd make due with the bad sound and rolling shutter problems, especially for the price. I certainly wouldn't tolerate these shortcomings if the camera was $3500.