Questions about reception with new converter box

[johnsees]

Hi folks.
I just got this box (Zenith) hooked up last night, and all the channels are really clear regardless of what I do with the rabbit-ears. But I have 2 questions:
1) We're on the fringes of Hurricane Fay, and the analog reception is pretty wavy. The digital reception is clear as a bell (video) and the audio sounds great, but with occasional breaks where there is no sound for maybe a half-second or so. Is this the digital version of analog snow? (That only happens with ABC, not PBS.)
2) Because we're semi-rural and only have rabbit ears on the tv, with analog we receive only ABC and PBS clearly. Those are the only stations that we're getting with the converter. (Of course, we get the sub-channels now that we didn't get before.) But with analog, we can also (if we really want to mess with the antenna) watch Fox and CBS (or is it NBC?). So the signal is getting here. Why doesn't the converter pick them up? Can it be that those networks don't have any digital transmission yet?

Thanks for any info.

[SLK001]

Yep, you got it... "Digital Snow" is a complete loss of discernible video signal. It's like watching a scratchy DVD - sometimes you see and hear it, sometimes you don't.

I can receive signals digitally that I cannot via the analog path. Generally, if you can receive the analog signal, then the digital signal should be clear. Some broadcasters aren't yet completely ready for full digital (I have one in my area where they are still in the construction phase - re: putting up their digital antenna on their tower).

Your converter box should have an "INFO" button on the remote that should give you the signal strength of your particular channel. This is what I use to steer my antenna.

Hurricane Fay? Sorry, but she didn't qualify for that rating.

[edDV]

Put your address into http://www.antennaweb.org/ for a list of likely channels and the types of antennas needed.

Their database takes into account terrain, direction/distance to transmitter and transmitter power. You may need a different antenna to reach the other channels.

I just ran a downtown Ashville Zip code and here is the list their. Your stations are in all directions and a mix of UHF and VHF making antenna selection difficult. NBC and Fox are in Greenville, SC 29 miles away. That may take a roof top directional antenna.

You also see in the list that channel numbers change on Feb 17, 2009. These will be new permanent transmitters and towers that will likely have greater power.

Channel 36 for NBC will carry better than their current temporary channel 59.

[Kibble]

Put your address into http://www.antennaweb.org/ for a list of likely channels and the types of antennas needed.

Their database takes into account terrain, direction/distance to transmitter and transmitter power. You may need a different antenna to reach the other channels.

Is there any Canadian equivalent to this?

Thanks

Kibble

[Nelson37]

You might try a Terk indoor antenna, made a world of difference for me, am using that one on my Hauppage card.

On the TV I'm using a cheaper RCA HDTV antenna, which has a connection for an additional antenna. I have a second set of older rabbit ears connected to this. Both have an adjustment knob, actually the RCA has two. Antenna placement extremely sensitive, plus the adjustment knob, oddly on the older antenna.

Except for one extremely weak and totally unwatchable analog station, everything that comes in clear analog is receivable digital. My area is quite flat, though. It did take quite a bit of fine tuning on the antenna placement, in combination with knob placement.

The Terk is a lot better looking and doesn't need much positioning, $79.95 but well worth it.

[creakndale]

Those stations you are unable to receive, might be transmitting but at a much lower power, thus more difficult to receive. The small portable (though directional) Zenith Silver Sensor antenna is a good one.

Also, the 1/2 second drop out might be the station's fault. In Albuquerque, with 90+ signal strength, one or more stations are still trying to get the kinks worked out of their digital transmission. It's not a signal strength problem.

[edDV]

The yellow code stations should come in with an indoor antenna. The blue and violet codes need a large UHF-VHF (high band VHF for Ch 7,9) directional antenna on the roof pointed ~175 degrees to span 156-193 degrees. An amplifier may be needed.

Such as the Winegard HD 7084P
http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewitem.asp?p=SHD7084


You can use an antenna coupler to connect both antennas.
http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewitem.asp?p=CC7870

[johnsees]

I appreciate all the info. And, if I'm understanding correctly, just because I can receive an analog signal from a particular station, that doesn't necessarily mean that I can receive their digital signal; is that right?

[gadgetguy]

That's correct for now. If they're currently not broadcasting digital at full strength, after the switchover you may be able to receive the signal with no trouble.

[edDV]

I appreciate all the info. And, if I'm understanding correctly, just because I can receive an analog signal from a particular station, that doesn't necessarily mean that I can receive their digital signal; is that right?

The Blue and Purple ratings for some of the South Carolina stations may be due to current low power temporary DT transmitters, small temporary antenna towers or terrain blockage (trees or hills).

Did you run your address? Your predicted reception may be very different from downtown Asheville.

[usually_quiet]

I appreciate all the info. And, if I'm understanding correctly, just because I can receive an analog signal from a particular station, that doesn't necessarily mean that I can receive their digital signal; is that right?

That is right. If the analog version is snowy, the digital version is likey to break up or freeze to some degree, assuming they are both being transmitted from the same place. In addition to what others said, changes in the weather can affect the signal. I tend to get somewhat worse reception on marginal channels when it rains or the wind kicks up, and I only have indoor antennas.

I can't use an outdoor antenna, and did a lot of research last month for a new indoor antennas to go with my converter box. Based on all the many reviews I read, I'm not sure one can know how well an antenna will work without trying it. I saw numerous instances where an antenna was rated as very good in one review, but as very poor in the next. This was especially true for amplified antennas.

The Silver Sensor type (rooster tail) antennas have a good reputation, but I as I recall, they are only for UHF. As I understand it, all TV broacasts will eventually move to UHF, but for now, and for some time after the switch, there will be digital stations transmitting in the VHF range. For that, regular dipole antennas (rabit ears) are better. A combination of UHF loop antenna plus dipole may be a better choice for indoor antennas, for now.

I used http://www.tvfool.com/ as well as http://www.antennaweb.org/ Try both for fun.

[edDV]

I'll teach you to fish here. Then you can fish for the rest.

Using WYFF (NBC Greenville, SC as an example)
http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=WYFF then look at tech data for FCC link.
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?facid=53905

Analog channel 4. Lower VHF channels propagate further with lower power.
This station goes off air on Feb 17, 2009.


Temporary DT UHF channel 59. Power = 392 Kilowatts from a 577 meter tower.
This station is operating with lower power. Also channel 59 has less range vs. future channel 36.
This station goes off air on Feb 17, 2009.


Temporary DT UHF channel 36. Power = 1000 Kilowatts from a 522 meter tower position.
This new transmitter goes on the air Feb 17, 2009 and has 2.55x more power.


Permanent DT UHF channel 36. Power = 1000 Kilowatts from a 577 meter tower.
Looks like they are raising the antenna 25 meters to replace the channel 59 antenna.


So you may need a Purple rated antenna to receive Ch59 but you might get by with less with Ch36. Repeat this research for every station you wish to receive.

[gadgetguy]

@usually_quiet - I'm curious as to why you say you can't use an outdoor antenna. It's my understanding that the same legislation that brought about this conversion to digital, also made it so neighborhood associations and the like cannot restrict anyone from having an outside antenna.

[usually_quiet]

@usually_quiet - I'm curious as to why you say you can't use an outdoor antenna. It's my understanding that the same legislation that brought about this conversion to digital, also made it so neighborhood associations and the like cannot restrict anyone from having an outside antenna.

I don't own my own home. Besides, it isn't absolutely necessary. There is only one low-powered analog local station that I can't tune in reasonably well by fiddling with the rabbit ears. If I really want to watch that one, I have one TV connected to cable.

[vhelp]

Well, if you're not all that crazy about HD, then cable ( analog ? ) is still good enough. That's what I have. But, during the tv series of Lost, I gotta have the HD. Course, that's ABC, and they air 15Mbits, 1280x720p. But, now that the series, Hereos is back on, I am reconsidering watching them again. I stopped watching them after seasno 1 because I didn't like the way some of the villans played out., and I gave it up. But during the olympics they were really pumping the hype up a bit and it did look entising. But I don't know. And they are on NBC, also at 15Mbits though at 1920x1080. Now I've never seen Hereos at that res, so it might be interesting to see how they look. But more importantly, i'm more interested in learning whether or not they changed the normal 3:2 telecine application in favor of the new-er time expanded/compressed because these are a lot harder/trickyer to restore back to their original framerate, etc. With Lost, they are time compressed because the telecine consist of "blends", and anytime you see these, it is because they took out frames.

EDIT:
I got an (Radioshack) outdoor antenna and put it in my bedroom. They carry several in stores, so it should an easy trip to them and you pick up a 5' long flat box. No one's gonna harras you about it. I mean, its not an full antenna that looks like its from Mars or something and, what-nots. Anyways. It comes in a thin flat box and once you slide it out of the box, the depoles fold outward for installation. Actually, there's really nothing to install, almost. I have it situated on a bunch of empty boxes -- I couldn't find anything more professional looking to stand it on. Until they rebuild the new tower or find a new location for the anntennas in NYC, I have aimed my antenna in the direction of Conneticut in order to get their ABC station.

EDIT:
Only recently, did I discover how to get NBC30 (another HD channel) in Conneticut through the use of an antenna amplifier, w/variable 10db gain control. (I might get a 20db or more because I think it will help pull in NBC (and other stations) stronger, because when I used the 6' cable and connected it to the amplifier and then to my reciever -- both in my bedroom, the strength went from 9 straight up to 65, and i need at least a strength of 12 to get NBC in. And with the amplifier and my 25' cable, the strength is at 20 now -- bad weather or heavy traffic or unusual plans flying over does cause hickups) You connect it close enough to the antenna (but not too close) and the rest is obvious. That got me the NBC station I was not able to get w/out the amplifer.

To this day, other than you-all, noone else knows about that outdoor antenna in my bedroom. For two major network stations, its worth the effort. I can always revert back to analog cable. Heck, thats what I normally watch anyway. I mean, I only watch the HD (via my pinnacle pctv pro stick) when I want to capture it to my HDD. Otherwise, its not all that fun to watch on my 13" pc screen. I much rather sit down on a comfortable couch and veg out on a program with some old fashion milk-n cookies

-vhelp 4856

[johnsees]

I appreciate all the info. And, if I'm understanding correctly, just because I can receive an analog signal from a particular station, that doesn't necessarily mean that I can receive their digital signal; is that right?

The Blue and Purple ratings for some of the South Carolina stations may be due to current low power temporary DT transmitters, small temporary antenna towers or terrain blockage (trees or hills).

Did you run your address? Your predicted reception may be very different from downtown Asheville.

Yeah, I ran it out of curiosity, but the site was having some problems apparently. (server error). It's not really something I need anyway, because we're not really going to get a different antenna, we'll just settle for the stations we get now. I was just curious about how these things work, and why we could get analog signals of 2 stations that we couldn't get digital signals for. (And, predictably, the ones we get are in the yellow section of the chart.)

[Nelson37]

Is anyone here using a converter box for capturing, and if so how is the quality? And/or just for S-video output, compared to good or HD cable or sat output?

I used to have my antenna connected to my HD sat box, which IMO did an excellent job of down-sampling for the S-video output.

I'm just wondering how the less-expensive converter box will do, it should generally be starting with a better quality signal, and usually less bitrate-starved.

Ultimately I'm going to compare captured HDTV thru my Hauppage 1600 and then re-encoded to H264 with same progs down-sampled thru converter box and real-time capped in MPG2 thru my ATI. Storage requirements, playback limitations, and CPU time for re-encoding are all something I'm trying to balance.

[usually_quiet]

Not many people will be able to comment directly on S-Video out on converter boxes because there are only a few that have it. The Channel Master CM-7000 and a couple of Apex models are the only ones I know of that do. All the others I found are limited to composite and coaxial out.

Consumer Reports rate converterboxes at http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/electronics-computers/televisions/digital-tv-conver...d-notes.htm#14 They rated the CM-7000 as best WRT downconverted HD and S-Video out. Given the $80 price tag, it ought to be the best for something.

[Nelson37]

HAve only seen a few models locally and the Apex is one of them. There are also digital tuners for about $170.00, looks like the advantage to these units is Component and HDMI out. My older HDTV has no tuner, so I gave this some thought but just couldn't justify the extra dollars just for OTA. Plus, the $40 coupon does not apply to the more expensive units, the Apex will only cost me $19.95, so I figured it'w worth a shot.

Thanks for the link, more reading.

[vhelp]

@ Nelson37

Yesterday, I was in the area of k-mart and stoped in for a quick browse. I saw two tiny little OTA tv tuners (witht he $40 couple offer) and of course I had a look at the specs, but the two only ouput to Composite.

Curcuit City and Best Buy is another place to shop around for these equipments since they have 3 times the samples to choose from. Worth a browse over IMO.

I was hoping to test the S-Video out for you and give you a comparion to guage, but it was a no-go there.

I do have two other OTA tv tuners however. Did you say you were testing them for their downsample quality aspects, for standard DVD purposes ??

Since these models have Composite, S-Video outputs, and Component outputs, I could try with a small demo with any of my:

* Pro Brand: Digital Stream HD3150Plus DTV receiver
* Hisense: USDigital USDTV DB-2010
* Polaroid: DRM-2001G -- dvd recorder, is limited to 480i over component output

-vhelp 4859

[Nelson37]

Yes, the S-video downsample of the HD OTA broadcast is what I'm looking for. Was doing this with my DirecTV HD reciever, mostly from HD satellite channels but I did do some from the OTA antenna.

Now using same or similar antenna, but the Satellite box is non-functional without a satellite connected. Not going to get into the discussion with the DirecTV folks about whether I actually own the box or not, am having a major difference of opinion here.

Have used a Hauppage 1600 for HD capture, but the file sizes are just too large. Have done some MP4 re-encoding for the Xbox360, and am investigating same process for my Toshiba A-30. Additional playback option and the possibility of maintaining 5.1 audio on DVD.

Previous encoding was real-time using my ATI card, good quality with no extra steps.

Standard resolution, though downsampled HD, real-time MPG versus HD-resolution requiring a re-encode for reasonable storage requirements. Options, options, options.

Appreciate any input you may have, Will most likely get the Apex box in the next week or so. Low cost and even lower ongoing expense has become a more significant factor lately.

[edDV]

...and the possibility of maintaining 5.1 audio on DVD.

I have yet to see a "government rebate" ATSC tuner that supports AC3 5.1 audio. That requirement pushes your options up into the $125-$250 class HD ATSC tuners.

[usually_quiet]

I have yet to see a "government rebate" ATSC tuner that supports AC3 5.1 audio. That requirement pushes your options up into the $125-$250 class HD ATSC tuners.

That's right, and I don't think one would ever be made to support AC3 5.1 audio.

I couldn't find where digital audio output was specifically prohibited, but I did see that that RCA stereo sound jacks are most definitly required for coupon elegibility. However, since we are talking about something that is intended to be used for converting a digital signal to analog, and which is only supposed to be used with an analog TV, it would not make sense for a coupon-elegible converter box to output digital anything.

[Nelson37]

I figured 5.1 on the converter box was kinda unlikely, my comment was referring to the use of the Hauppage 1600 capture, converted to x264 for the Toshiba. Need some more software for this, the xbox conversions work but that unit does not support 5.1.

The tuner box may be a future possibility, what really, really frosts me is that I already have one, a DirecTV HD-10, that I purchased some time ago, and which can do what I want. However, there is a large, heavy, enormous, and massively clefted right down the middle BUT, the bleeping thing is apparently TOTALLY NON-FUNCTIONAL when the dish is disconnected. (Insert numerous BLEEPS here).

The OTA antenna did work for about two weeks before I moved, with the service turned off but the rooftop dish still connected. Good downsample, 5.1 audio, and all. I should say the service was "temporarily discontinued" as oppossed to actually shut off. I've been wondering what would happen if I just connected a discarded dish to the unit. To have paid $100.00 for a box that does the job but is disabled in this way ......

A previous call to DirecTV did not address this issue, lengthy and heated conversation ensued when they wanted me to pay them an additional $200.00 for the box. Long story, much confusion, according to the retailer it belongs to me, though obviously it won't work AS A DISH RECEIVER without paying for satellitle service. Duh. No reason that it can't work for an OTA tuner, though. Except they won't let me. It gives a message that "no Satellite (either DEVICE or SERVICE) is currently connected. I should test this again, it sits now on the Shelf of Shame, mocking me.

Probably should call DirecTV again, I did ultimately pay the Sat bill, though they might remember my offer to return the box in question by delivering it directly through their front window.

[usually_quiet]

Sorry about the situation with DirecTV, but maybe you should start a thread about External HDTV Tuners? You might get more useful responses that way.

Obviously a CECB is not the best choice in your situation, but if you do decide to go that route for an HDTV, I would go with the best for picture quality, not the Apex. I bought two converter boxes from Dish/Echostar, and the picture on those is often noticeably soft on HD channels. Fortunately, I am using them with two small, older TV's and the picture they provide is still a vast improvement over current analog broadcasts with most programming I receive. However. some of the HD broadcasts would probably look wretched on an HDTV or a large SD TV.