JVC DRM100 / Maxell DVD-RW Formatting Issue

[robjv1]

So for many years now I have been using the same batch of Maxell 2x DVD-RWs in my JVC DVD recorder. They have worked pretty much without fault. I've used them exclusively with this recorder since using them with a lite-on 5005 I had before.

Anyhow -- so I purchased a Phillips 3575H DVD recorder to record some of the Olympics on and used some of these DVD-RWs to do so. After I finished recording off of them and ripped them to my HD, I tried using them again in my JVC DRM100. No dice. I go to format them and it gets almost all the way to the end and can't format it and returns with a "A Problem Has Occured with the Disc. Check the disk." message. At first I thought maybe the disc failed, but then I tried two more that worked fine in my DRM100 and put them in the Phillips. Same problem.

I tried formatting them in my JVC in VR mode and Video mode. I tried erasing them in my Phillips first and then trying them on my JVC -- still nothing. No matter what I seem to do, it can't seem to record on these discs that have touched another DVD recorder. Any other disc that I have used pretty much exclusively in my JVC are just fine.

So I went out and bought a new back of Maxell discs today, which look exactly like my old ones on the outside, though who knows how much has changed with them in the four years since I last bought -RW discs, and they all give me the same error message I'm getting on my discs that I have been using in the Phillips. Then I tried burning something off of my computer onto the discs and playing it back in my JVC and it said they were unreadable discs.

So is it possible that when I formatted all of these discs years ago on my old Liteon 5005, that something about the way the Liteon Formatted them made them compatible with my JVC and thus, able to be formatted on it/recorded with them since, with no problems? This makes NO sense to me. Is there maybe something I could do to format them on my system with IMGBURN or something to make JVC like them more? Is there something specifically unique about the way the DRM100 formats a disc? I also use TY discs for regular -R recording and have no problems with any of them.

Does anyone know of any 4.7GB DVD-RW discs that are compatible with the JVC DRM100? I don't believe the unit can use DVD+RW.

[wabjxo]

One thing you can do is use the 3575's unique media ID (MID) utility to check the media code, as described at the bottom of this help file.

Once you get the MID, you can go to the linked media-quality sites (digitalfaq.com and videohelp.com here) to see how the MID stacks up today. At least you'll have a clue as to the new AND old discs media quality and see just what might be changed... or not?

Also, in case you didn't know. the 3575 will format a -RW disc to Philips' +VR Standard, which is compatible will all other DVD-Video players and computers when finalized, but they don't like each other before that. So, you can't do multisession recording on the 3575 and a DVD-Video machine like Panny, Pio, etc. Some notes on Multisession recording are in this help file.

[robjv1]

Well I just don't understand why a disc that worked 100 times before in my JVC-DRM100 all of the sudden won't work/can't be formatted in my DRM-100 after having been used in the 3575. It's the same physical disc I used even yesterday in my JVC. I have a small number of other discs I've used only in my JVCDRM100 and I wouldn't dare put them in another system now, knowing that they might not work anymore once they get back to my JVC. This seems so odd to me!

Thanks for the links.

[samijubal]

Do a full erase on the PC. That should take care of the problem. I use DVD Decrypter to erase them.

If you have Decrypter, click tools, drive, erase disc and do the full erase. It will take half an hour but the disc will be like new.

[robjv1]

Excellent idea and I was SURE it was going to work, but it sure didn't. Does that make any sense at all? I get the same error message when I attempted to format it on the JVC. Pop in a disc used exclusively in the unit and it formats just fine/plays just fine/records just fine. I will try it on a few more discs and see what I can come up with. There must be something I'm missing...

[samijubal]

You did a full erase and not a quick erase? If that didn't work I don't think anything will. Sounds like the JVC burner may be dying or need cleaned.

I've always used Verbatim RWs and never had any problems with them.

[lordsmurf]

Questions for you:
- What happens when you use a Verbatim DVD-R in the JVC recorder?
- Are the new discs 2x DVD-RW too? Not 4x?
- Do you have any discs that were not used in the Philips, but still fail to work in the JVC?

My experience / practice:
- I personally don't mix discs much, because I ran into this same headache with DVD+RW machines.
- On my JVC, I have my TDK, Fuji and Pioneer discs. All 2x media, had them for years now.
- On my Philips, I only use TDK 4x discs, bought them all last year.

[robjv1]

Samijubal: Yes, I did a full erase. This reminds me of something as well --- I have two DVD drives on my computer, one DVD and one recordable. Discs that have been recorded in my JVC (well at least these Maxell discs) have never been readable by my DVD/RW drive, it recognizes them as CDROMs, but they are recognized fine by my DVD drive, so I've just always ripped them to my HDD with that drive. Oddly enough, if I put one of these blank new Maxell discs I picked up yesterday in my DVD/RW drive, it recognizes it. Same goes for a Maxell disc (new or old) recorded on the Phillips. However, DVD-R's that I record on the JVC work just fine in both drives on my computer. Strange huh?


Lordsmurf:

1. I haven't tried those. I have put in Verbatim DVD DL disc for playback and they have always worked fine, but I've never tried any Verbatim stuff that weren't finalized. I have only ever used Maxell DVD-RWs or Taiyo Uden DVD-R's in the machine, save for a couple of generic discs when I first got the machine in 2005. They all play back fine.

2. Yes, the Maxell new discs are still 2X RW. In fact, they look exactly the same, save for the printing on the inside hub, which is larger then the printing on my older ones. I'm not sure why I picked Maxell in the first place when I got the recorder, but they seemed to work, so I stuck with them. As I said though, I have been using the same batch of discs for at least the past two years and I believe I used them with my old Lite-On 5005 in 2005

3. No, I tried 10 other discs and they all worked just fine.

Well it looks like I need to go to the store or online and buy a selection of media and hope for the best! I think I will stick to one media per DVD recorder though from this point on.

[robjv1]

Just thought I would give ya'll an update if interested.

Went to the store last night to get some groceries and figured I would pick up a few more types of -RW discs in the home electronics department. I got a batch of Sony 1x/2x DVD-RWs and some TDK "1-4X" discs.

I got the same error with the Sony's as previous ("A Problem Has Occured with the Disc. Check the disk.") but the first TDK disc I tried worked great! I only had time to test one before bed, so I will have to try a few more of them tonight to make sure I didn't just get lucky. Then I'll go buy their whole stock out if they work LOL.

I am a little worried about my DVD recorder being more flakey then I imagined though. I think maybe that it was just covered up by me always using the same media, but I wouldn't mind having it looked at. I am sure it is out of warranty by now, so how does one go about getting it looked at? The closest service center to me is in California -- could I ship it there? Even if it is somewhat cost prohibitive, this is by far the best recorder I have owned and I would like to keep it in good shape for a few more years.

Perhaps there is just really no way around it though as far as the media goes.

[robjv1]

UGH. Well my recorder seems to have bitten the dust. It won't even play commercial discs now without reporting "Disc Error". It doesn't seem able to finalize/format any of my -RW media now either. Is it possible the laser went out? Dirty perhaps? I contacted JVC and I am hoping there is something I do to go about fixing this. I really don't know if there is another recorder out there for me, I *love* this recorder and the image quality it presents, especially given the nature of my content.

What other options do I have for JVC recorders that actually use the same type of image processing chips? I also need the FR (variable rate recording) mode.

[deuce8pro]

Go to circuit city get a cd lens cleaner, see if it will play that.

[samijubal]

Open the recorder and clean the laser with a q-tip wet with alcohol, clean the spindle the disc sits on too. That's a lot better than a disc cleaner. I think those JVCs may use an LG burner that can be replaced.

[lordsmurf]

LG or Optiarc.

[robjv1]

Thanks, I will try that. In the meantime, this will give me a good opporunity to try out my Phillips 3775 for VHS->DVD work...

[lordsmurf]

The 3575 doesn't filter, so the MPEG is not all that great. It looks as bad as the VHS tape, chroma noise and all.

[robjv1]

Damn. I got in there and cleaned it out well -- the laser, the case, made sure the fan was clear, etc. I popped in a commercial disc and it recognized it in like two seconds and started playing... for about 10 seconds and then it froze. Took out the disc and tried another one. "Disc Error". Tried a few more and all the same "Disc Error" message.

Is there a guide for how to replace the burner that anyone knows of?

I've contacted the JVC service center by email and have no response as of yet, but it says it could be up to 5 days before I will hear something.

I know there are other JVC DVD recorders available, such as the combo units, but how many of those have the same filters as the DR-M100? Will any of them accept an auxilery S-Video input from my JVC SR101US VCR?

[robjv1]

JVC emailed me back on my recorder -- the repair estimate is $235.00. They didn't specify what was wrong with it, although I'm guessing it was the DVD drive. A quick peek on the JVC model part cross reference site reveals that particular drive costs $150.00 to purchase from them -- so I am thinking maybe it was something more severe (I did have a power spike that fried my Powerware 3105 UPS about 6 months back) or labor is expensive, but whatever the case I gave them the OK to make the repair.

[orsetto]

The DRM100s that I've owned all used Hitachi burners, which struck me as very odd since Hitachi apparently doesn't market PC drives? Although I suppose the complete company name is now Hitachi GoldStar so maybe they're LG after all. In any case they seem to be a larger than usual size and are probably exclusive to that model year of JVC recorder.

Regarding the R/W issue, R/Ws are a pain in the a** and not nearly as useful as mfrs make them out to be. Half the people here claim they can't live without them and the other half wouldn't touch them if they got them for free. Its luck of the draw. The A#1 problem with these is the one you experienced: older recorders like the DRM100 are extremely picky about R/Ws and will reject any that were not originally formatted in the recorder. You can't mix and match the same disc between two recorders. Even after a full erase on the PC, somehow a JVC "knows" its formatting was tampered with and will not accept the disc again. In your particular case you have the option of DVD-RAM discs- I recommend these with a JVC over R/W. They're more expensive but less trouble. There are a great many reports on various forums suggesting that R/W puts a greater strain on this vintage of recorder than write-once or RAM media: considering a DRM100 is now irreplaceable, I would err on the side of caution. You're very lucky JVC actually had the spare burner in stock and agreed to repair your unit: they changed course after the DRM100 and no longer make their own recorders, the next time yours fails they probably won't have parts anymore. Use it wisely.

[lordsmurf]

In my experience, RAM were more of a problem than RW.
In fact, I've got a stack of 10 RAM discs, 8 of which have never even been used.

[robjv1]

Interesting. I've never heard that about DVD-RW's. What about them causes more strain on the burner? I'm only assuming that the burner was the culprit on my JVC by the way -- as they have not told me what the problem was, just that it will cost $235.00 to fix.

I do have some DVD-RAMs that seemed to work fine in my recorder, but I cannot read them on my PC. Being that I copy everything to my PC to author it, what quality drives support DVD-RAM? I'll have to look on NewEgg.

I currently have TSSTcorp DVD-ROM TS-H352C and BenQ DVD DD DW1650 drives and neither seems to read DVD-RAM.

I hate this inevitable race against time... if it's not racing against my DVD recorder failing, it's racing against my tapes degrading. Although the latter is probably a misplaced concern, it truly seems that the DVD recorder's days are numbered in hours rather then years, especially the ones for good VHS -> DVD work. I'll be happy when I've finished converting all of this stuff... and then I'll spend another year or two making copies! haha. I'm past a terabyte with this stuff and still have a long ways to go! I guess I better start prioritizing.

[orsetto]

No one seems to know exactly *why* R/Ws drag down the lasers in older machines, but they do seem to. The common guess is they require more futzing with the laser. Who knows. Any current RAM-capable PC burner would be as good or better than your current drives. Unlike LS, I have had no problems with RAM discs, even the Maxells that are more widely available in my area. RAM discs are not as "married" to a particular recorder as R/W discs. I use them to move recordings from my DRM100 and DRMV5 to my Pioneer 640, which makes lossless copies to its hard drive and allows more editing possibilities and menu creation before making a final DVD-R.

Your JVC lasted nearly four years, pretty darn good considering you use it heavily with R/W. When it comes back, I'm sure you'll be fine with R/W as long as you don't record on them with anything but the JVC. I think RAM is less trouble, but R/W is okay if used carefully (get a fresh set and rotate them, discard after 20-30 cycles). Regarding your tapes fading away, this is largely an old wives tale: unless you store them in the garage, tapes last decades. I have hundreds of VHS from 1981 that still play perfectly.

[samijubal]

The DRM100s that I've owned all used Hitachi burners, which struck me as very odd since Hitachi apparently doesn't market PC drives?

LG drives are actually a joint Hitachi/LG design manufactered by LG.


Other than some early Optocrap discs, RAM has been a very reliable format for me and I have about 300 of them. The M10 JVC recorder was crap with RAM, it wasn't the discs, it was the recorder. Maybe that's smurf's problem.

Pioneer, Toshiba, LG PC burners all read RAM. From my limited experience, Pioneer works the best. The LG I had was a crap reader, the Toshiba read a little better than the Poneer but would choke on edited discs sometimes that the Pioneer would read.

[lordsmurf]

I do not agree that DVD-RW media "drags" on a laser. DVD-RW use DVD-Video mode, while DVD-RAM uses DVD-VR mode. The VR mode is bound to be a problem. I'd rather waste DVD-R than use DVD-RAM, should DVD-RW not be an option.

My problem goes back to DVD-VR, not the JVC or DVD-RAM.

Tapes fading away is boogeyman bullshit to scare you into paying somebody to convert your tapes for big bucks. While they will decay as time goes by, you can take your time in doing it. The only reasons tapes die fast is if they are stored in humidity, in outdoor/attic/garage conditions, or if you smoke in the house. I have tapes from the late 1970s that still play fine. I would NOT want to watch them over and over again, but I convert tapes as I have time. I've been doing it for 7 years now.

[robjv1]

Yeah, I have had very little problems with tapes degrading. I remember one time where I was convinced that my tape had degraded because when I made a recording of it on my DVD recorder, it looked awful, all kinds of weird problems with the signal and just seemed soft and out of focus. I was sure that time had claimed the tape as it's victim. Then I remembered I had a dubbed copy of the same tape that I'd made like 10 years before, so I popped it in and guess what? It had all of the same issues (plus it was 2nd generation). It's funny what your memory / expecatations and cautionary tales of rotting tapes can do for you expectations.

[orsetto]

I do not agree that DVD-RW media "drags" on a laser.

Some agree, some don't, it depends on your experience. If you do a survey of Toshiba owners (or talk to an honest Toshiba rep), they'll tell you R/W puts their machines on the fast track to the landfill. I've had similar issues with one of my JVC units. Of course, like anything else, much of the problem is due to user expectations. Used carefully and discarded after a reasonable number of cycles, R/W is generally OK. But people tend to think they can be re-used hundreds of times, and that's where the trouble starts. You'd be amazed by how many R/Ws start failing by the third or fourth cycle: don't overdo it.

My problem goes back to DVD-VR, not the JVC or DVD-RAM.

Yes, the VR format can be a pill to work with which is one reason I'm leery of the otherwise-nice Phillips 3575/3576. I'm willing to put up with it on DVD-RAM because it has less hiccups than R/W and is seamlessly interchangeable among RAM-capable recorders. I usually have the recorders internally convert the DVD-RAM VR files on their hard drives to DVD-video spec on the final DVD. I have no time or patience for PC finishing anymore, but I've heard current software revisions now handle VR better, making the Phillips or DVD-RAM more palatable than they were.

[lordsmurf]

I've been using the same 40 of so DVD-RW for 5 years now. I sometimes use the same discs multiple times per day. Definitely per week or month. Some of these discs have seen in excess of 100 uses, easily.

It's DVD+RW media, on the other hand, that have the highest fail rate of any DVD disc. I don't know if it's the format, or just bad luck with manufacturers doing a sucky job on those discs.

In my Philips 3575, I'm using TDK DVD-RW and TDK DVD+RW. Mostly DVD-RW. The machine does not like DVD+RW very much, in my experience.

[wabjxo]

Yes, the VR format can be a pill to work with which is one reason I'm leery of the otherwise-nice Phillips 3575/3576. I'm willing to put up with it on DVD-RAM because it has less hiccups than R/W and is seamlessly interchangeable among RAM-capable recorders. I usually have the recorders internally convert the DVD-RAM VR files on their hard drives to DVD-video spec on the final DVD. I have no time or patience for PC finishing anymore, but I've heard current software revisions now handle VR better, making the Phillips or DVD-RAM more palatable than they were.

The Philips/Magnavox +VR STANDARD is not the same as the VR format on -RAM discs or RWs auto-formatted for VR MODE, like in the Pioneers.

Finalized +VR discs from a Philips or Magnavox recorder are "universally" playable just like those from a DVD-Video recorder.

[robjv1]

Very interesting! This whole topic somehow eluded me up to this point. I probably was using my DVD-RW's too much. I've never used DVD+RW's but I don't think the JVC even supports them as I recall. I don't think any of my -RWs had been formatted hundreds of times, but I would guess that a lot of them had probably been formatted at least 50 times.

I'll start fresh with my new batch and keep a tally on front of the disc. I really guess I COULD just use -R's, but it seems like a waste of money, especially considering I usually only record 80 mins to a disc max, but then again I'd rather have a working recorder. So do you think DVD-RW's in general play hell with the machine, or is it well-worn DVD-RW's? Maybe I'll just go say 50 times a disc and dump it? I usually cycled them before (in a pack of 15) but I'm sure some got used more then others.

I haven't had much trouble with VR format DVD-RW discs made in my Phillips 3575 (I rip DVD Decrypter --> MPEG Video Wizard for editing --> DVD Lab Pro 2.0 for authoring --> IMGBurn for burning) but so far I only did the opening ceremonies of the Olympics. I just pick the split "none" option in DVD decrypter and have never had problems. I did have problems with a disc from a Sony recorder though. I assume it was DVD+VR, but I can't remember. Anyhow, If I did it using my normal method the video stream would be all messed up when I tried to fast forward through it or go back in it. The audio would get all out of synch and sometimes it would just start skipping through it. I ended up resolving it by going into IFO mode and ripping it three chapters or less at a time, one cell at a time. Took awhile, but it was the only way I could make it play or functional for editing.

So in the event that my repaired recorder eventually dies, does anyone know off hand of some of the newer (and expensive) units that would make a good replacement (combo units are fine) for a DR-M100 (need variable rate recording, "Super-Mpeg Processing" or whatever chips are optimized for VHS-->DVD work)?

I'm aware of the following older units:
JVC DR-M10
JVC DR-MV1
JVC DR-MV5.

[samijubal]

I still have the original RAM disc that came with my first recorder back in '01, it still works flawlessly. It's been used I don't even know how many times. It was the only disc I had for some time since discs cost $10 each back then for generics. Unlike RWs, RAM discs don't need to be fully erased to make sure they perform flawlessly.

The only problem I've run into with RAM discs is the Toshiba and LG PC burners I had didn't like edited discs sometimes, they would choke part way through reading them. The Pioneer drives will read discs that have been recorded, edited, recorded again, edited and recorded one more time. The LG and Toshiba couldn't handle recording three times and editing commercials twice.

[orsetto]

There is a range of opinions here as to whether the vintage JVC units are really *that* much better than other current decent-grade machines for the purpose of dubbing VHS to DVD. Some of us found difficulty with them over the long haul, and moved on to other brands. LordSmurf and deuce8pro, for example, believe JVC is the best choice for less-than-stellar tapes. I, on the other hand, feel the opposite: my JVCs drive me up the wall and thru the ceiling when I use them to dub poor VHS: they require so much additional stabilizing hardware to work around their allergy to bad tapes that I lose the very qualities I admire in JVC to begin with. Then there are others who just think JVCs are way way off in their IRE response etc. Myself, I now use my JVCs exclusively for OTA and cable recording, where I think they really shine. For my VHS, I've moved to Pioneer for a number of reasons I've mentioned in other threads: consistency, resistance to poor VHS faults, and versatility of hard drive editing.

Given that you are spending more than the cost of a new machine to repair your DRM100, its probably a safe assumption that you don't like the looks of anything else and will remain a die-hard JVC user for the forseeable future. That's a valid option, no reason to change if JVCs work best for you and your particular tapes, and you're able to still get them repaired if they break. But you need to plan ahead for backup machines, because no current units have the same filtered encoding features as the vintage JVCs: none. They're all long since discontinued. Your only option is to buy a couple of second-hand recorders that are still in working condition, and store them. With JVC, the most reliable models were the DRM100 and DRMV5 (the DRMV5 is a DRM100 with a VHS deck glued to it). Avoid the earlier DRM10 and DRMV1S, they are trouble prone. And avoid all later JVCs: they are either no longer JVC-made, or they are very poorly-made genuine JVCs that are way overpriced as supposed "pro" models. You can also consider the Toshibas from the same 2004/2005 vintage, these are much more expensive to buy because they have a rabid "cult" following and include the incredibly versatile hard drive feature missing from the JVCs. Toshiba hard-drive models were as good or better than JVCs in terms of PQ, and they buried JVC in terms of features. Unfortunately there is a huge price discrepancy: a good working JVC will run you $90 or less, but a vintage Toshiba DVD/HDD deck easily runs $300 or more used. (There were a few non-HDD Toshibas similar to the DRM100, but most of those have broken down and are not a good risk used.)

There really isn't anything else comparable to a vintage JVC or Toshiba. If you love that type of recording, you probably won't be satisfied with anything less. Other than (perhaps) newer Pioneers and the current Phillips 3576, I have not heard of models that previous JVC or Toshiba owners have been able to tolerate even slightly as replacements. Panasonics are very very popular but have a distinct recording quality of their own which is universally loathed by JVC/Toshiba users: you will likely hate a Panasonic. The current USA model Sonys, Toshibas, and others are from the junk bin and many have problems with their timers and tuners. These new ATSC tuner recorders are very pricey considering how lame most of them are: a used machine that you already *know* you like would be much more cost effective. The biggest problem with older recorders is availability of media that will work with them. Within a year or two, there may be nothing that they can record on: as it stands my own JVCs reject anything but Taiyo Yuden 8x and some batches of Sony 16x. The best suggestion I can give you is to transfer as many tapes as you can as quickly as possible: make it your lifes work until the task is done.