JVC DRM100 / Maxell DVD-RW Formatting Issue

[samijubal]

You can't praise Philips and put down Toshiba in the same paragraph, they are the same thing. The new Toshiba is nowhere near the picture quality the D-R4 and XS series were, which means the Philips isn't either.

[robjv1]

Great replies everyone. You've been very helpful.

I will say first off -- I haven't really tried a ton of DVD recorders. I previously had a Lite-On 5005 which was maybe the least reliable DVD recorder I've owned. I went through two of them very quickly -- plus they were prone to overheating and terrible jitter. I was totally nonplussed with any of the Sony DVD recorders I tried --- way too much noise and it seemed like they did something weird with the color. I have no experience with Panasonic recorders at all. Having said that I am certainly not going to limit myself too much to the options when the options are dwindling at such a rapid rate.

I do almost all of my recording at 80 mins or less per disc and don't have much need for a great three-hour mode like the JVCs offer. Perhaps at that bitrate, there is less difference between these recorders then it seems? What I like about the JVCs though is the chroma filtering on VHS sources and it is VHS that I'm concerned with -- I just don't want MPEG2 artifacts mucking up my display. Sony recorders seem the worst at this. And the variable recording is nice, as not everything can be fit at 60 minutes, but 95% of my stuff is fit fine over two discs at FR-80 or FR-85.

In addition, I already have a lot of the supplementary equipment: I have a Sign Video Color Corrector and the detailer, I got a Datavideo TBC, and I have several working JVC TBC VCR models and a regular Panasonic and Sony VCR. A hard drive would be nice, but not necessary. So basically, I'm not really too worried about whether or not the IRE is right nor does it matter if it has a tuner or not -- I have a Phillips 3576 for off the air programming, which works fabulously (haven't tried it for VHS work yet) -- I'm pretty much only concerned with VHS to DVD conversion.

It sounds like Pioneer might be a good option for a backup -- can I import one of these new from Canada and expect good results, or should I only be looking at vintage models? I wouldn't mind trying out a Toshiba, but it seems like it'd be easier to strike oil in my front yard then find a good used Toshiba that is fully functional. I don't mind paying $300+ for a good recorder, but I won't go and spend $700 or $1500 on a crappy JVC one that people say they have nothing but trouble with. That's one of the reasons I waited out the first few JVC models and bought the DR-M100 -- because it actually sounded like a reliable recorder and it has been for several years. I just need another recorder I can get a few more years out of!

[samijubal]

A warning, if you buy a Pioneer from outside the U.S., the only you'll get a new one, it will have no warranty.

[wabjxo]

Have you considered the new Magnavox H2160MW9, which is a virtual clone of the Philips 3576 and their remotes don't clash so they can be used side-by-side? All the help files for the 3576 are applicable to the Mag as well (click my signature for a list of files).

Here's a thread on that unit.

[orsetto]

You can't praise Philips and put down Toshiba in the same paragraph, they are the same thing. The new Toshiba is nowhere near the picture quality the D-R4 and XS series were, which means the Philips isn't either.

Its a matter of context. Not every vintage Toshiba owner is like you- willing to scour the second-hand market for "new old stock" or repairable units. Some of them have been burned by faulty Toshibas, and may not even want another one. I'm not picking on Toshiba, this applies to Panasonic and Pioneer fans as well: not everyone has the patience or interest in coping with the crazy secondary market for these things. Quite a few people vastly prefer walking into a national retailer and buying something new with a USA warranty. A great many of those moved to the Phillips 3575/3576 when their prized vintage DVD/HDD broke for the third time. Not because the Phillips is an exact, satisfying replacement: because it was *there*, the only DVD/HDD recorder available. As it happens, its a decent unit, and while a former Toshiba owner may not love it, they make do with it, and in that sense its on the short list of popular Toshiba replacements.

One has to bend their thinking a little when it comes to the Phillips DVD/HDD units, because subtle distinctions apply. Yes, it is made by Funai, but Phillips was very clear in asking Funai to "up the stakes" on the 3575/3576 to make it more competitive with the recently discontinued Pioneers and Panasonics. Earlier Phillips/Funai models were the same as any other Funai cheapie, the 3575/76 are a degree better. Not vastly better, but noticeably better. We need to give credit where its due when a mfr at least tries. OTOH, the non-HDD, DVD-only recorders that Funai makes for Toshiba, Phillips and 50% of all other brands are pretty much all equally mediocre. So, yes, it is possible to criticize current Toshibas in the same paragraph as praising the Phillips 3576. The current low-end Toshibas are overpriced, trouble-prone, plagued with oversensitive copy protection issues, and from the lower-end of Funais design bin. For $80 more, the Phillips is reliable, includes a hard drive, and does not hallucinate copy protection where it doesn't exist. They are different animals.

Myself: I'm like you- I'm hooked on my Pioneers like you are hooked on your older Toshibas. I am willing to scour the secondary market for backup machines and parts machines. However, I only do this because my experience of recent Pioneers has been very very favorable: I like them because they give me the least amount of trouble of any recorder since my 1981 RCA VHS. I have spent 27 years in this hobby, many of them coping with an endless number of balky DVRs, VCRs and LaserDisc players. My patience with "high performance/low reliability" went out the window years ago. If current Pioneers were crappy, I wouldn't waste my time on them. While its true Pioneer USA are behaving like total pukes in refusing to service any model later than the 640, in practical terms it doesn't matter: recent Pioneers don't break down. If it works out of the box, it will work for two-three years. If its DOA, return it immediately for another.

[orsetto]

It sounds like Pioneer might be a good option for a backup -- can I import one of these new from Canada and expect good results, or should I only be looking at vintage models?!

Now that you have elaborated on your hardware collection, we have a clearer picture of your situation. Before buying anything else, you need to test your Phillips 3575 using a variety of your toughest tapes, and see if the resulting DVD transfers are acceptable to you. Note the Phillips will not necessarily need all the ancillary hardware you use with the JVC: in this type of work, less is more. Begin your tests with just the recorder, don't add the DataVideo or proc amp unless you see a distinct need, or you could compromise the Phillips recording quality unnecessarily. The Phillips DVDs will not look like the JVC transfers, they will be different, you need to decide if they are "good enough". If you find them acceptable, or perhaps only a little bit disappointing, you may benefit from getting a Pioneer. If you find the results from your Phillips totally UNacceptable, you will likely be disappointed with a Pioneer as well. In that case, you will be happier with an additional vintage JVC or a vintage Toshiba DVD/HDD model.

The PQ on a Pioneer will match or exceed the Phillips depending on the tape and is a more elegant machine to use. I am talking here about current Pioneers: vintage Pioneers have their place for some purposes, but definitely not tape transfers. The models to look for would be a second hand USA DVR-640, or a current 450,550,650,460,560,660 from Canada. Don't pay more than $225 for a used two-year-old 640, the new models sell for $425 or so. They are all clones of each other with the exception of the 640 and 450 not having a DV/FireWire input for direct camera hookup, and slight differences in HDD capacity.

[samijubal]

Trying to say that a Philips made Funai and a Toshiba made Funai are different just isn't true. The only difference is the HDD, they use the same encoder chips and therefore are virtually the same recorder. The HDD recorders have a few features that non HDD recorders don't have but PQ will be the same. Even the Toshiba XS series that were the best recorders ever made as far as PQ aren't any better than the D-R4. It would end costing Funai more money to design and manufacter more than one style of DVD recorder, a bottom-of-the-line company doesn't do that. I've worked on many Funai electronics, the only thing that changes between different companies selling their products is the front circuit board with the display and function buttons.

[orsetto]

In the samples I have evaluated or that are owned by friends/relatives, the Phillips 3575/3576 have struck me as having more consistent video performance than the earlier Phillips units and the current non-HDD Funai rebadges for other names. Again, slightly- not dramatically- better, but enough for me to notice: and I am one picky bastard when it comes to PQ. More importantly, the 3575/76 exhibit none of the trigger-happy CP sensitivity of the new non-HDD Funai Toshibas, et al. Functionally, at the very least, there is a difference. This may change on newer models- it often does year to year.

It is fairly common to have units with the same guts perform differently- parts are graded before assembly into the final product. This was obvious even in the VCR days: i.e., Hitachi would market the same VCR under the Hitachi, Minolta and RCA brands. The Minoltas were amazing, the RCAs very very good, and the Hitachis only average. In stereo components, NAD and Proton came out of the same no-name factory: the Protons were prone to sudden death and fragility, the NADs hold up much better.

[samijubal]

That's a total joke, there's no difference between an RCA Hitachi or a Sears Hitachi or one sold by Hitachi. They are the exact same VCR and circuit boards, mechanical assemblies, etc. can be swapped from one to another. Any Hitachi VCR very good, that's a joke too, Hitachi VCRs were plagued with problems from the start and stayed that way through their production run. Tape end sensors went bad, the DC to DC converters in the tuners got so hot they melted the solder connections, even the later converters with heat sinks still had the same problem, capstan motor brushes wore out and left the motors caked with brush dust making performance poor, they had way too many belts that constantly needed replaced, that's just some of the problems. They did have the easiest to replace idler assemblies of any VCR, I'll give them that. Their PQ was at best average and the special effects poor, even the 5-head VCRs weren't any better at effects or even as good as a decent 4-head VCR.

You've convinced yourself the Philips is better is all. The same encoder chip will give the same results. The Philips may have noise reduction that can be turned on/off, I don't know if the Toshiba does or not, that would be the only difference, if the Toshiba doesn't have NR.

The Toshibas with the CP problems are the ones actually made by Toshiba, not the Funais.

[robjv1]

Well a little bit of good news for me. I picked up a DR-M100 off of eBay several weeks ago after my current one died and it arrived today just as I was returning from my vacation, and so far so good! It works great actually and looks pretty much unused (but who could say?). I picked it up for $50 with shipping. Plus JVC called me and says I should have my recorder back in about 10 days, so I think I'll probably box this one up somewhere and put it away for safe keeping in case my other breaks down on me again and can't be repaired.

[lordsmurf]

The same encoder chip will give the same results..

This is completely false.

Take the LSI Logic chipsets, for example. The Apex, JVC, LiteOn, Panasonic and Samsung uses all differed in one way or another, in terms of quality. They used differed settings, different bitrates, etc. Even the JVC machines slightly varied from DRM10 to DRM100, in terms of image quality (although they were very close -- both were excellent).

[samijubal]

The same encoder chip will give the same results..

This is completely false.

Take the LSI Logic chipsets, for example. The Apex, JVC, LiteOn, Panasonic and Samsung uses all differed in one way or another, in terms of quality. They used differed settings, different bitrates, etc. Even the JVC machines slightly varied from DRM10 to DRM100, in terms of image quality (although they were very close -- both were excellent).

You're talking about different manufacterers, of course they will be different. The same chip in a Funai recorder will give the same results wheather it says Philips, Toshiba, Funai or whoever else sells Funai recorders. They don't make products specifically for one company, they make products and sell them to whoever buys them, they are all the same.

[orsetto]

That's a total joke, there's no difference between an RCA Hitachi or a Sears Hitachi or one sold by Hitachi. They are the exact same VCR and circuit boards, mechanical assemblies, etc. can be swapped from one to another. Any Hitachi VCR very good, that's a joke too, Hitachi VCRs were plagued with problems from the start and stayed that way through their production run.

As usual, I will agree to disagree. Your experience is yours, mine is mine. In my 20 years owning a video store and taking in VCRs for repair, I've accumulated a fair amount of statistics on repair frequency and PQ. And after 27 years buying and returning dozens and dozens of VHS machines in search of the "perfect" vcr, I've learned as much as you have about brand management among OEM mfrs.

My experience with Hitachi dates back to 1981. You are correct about the early-period Hitachis- they were absolute total crap across the board. But when they landed the Minolta account in 1986, they pulled a 180 and became astonishingly good. To this day, I have never seen another non-SVHS or even SVHS machine make 1st or 2nd-generation tapes as beautifully as the 1986 Minoltas. These tapes dubbed perfectly to DVD for me 20 years later. When RCA switched sources from Panasonic to Hitachi in 1991, their flying-erase-head machines nearly equaled the Minoltas. Yet strangely, when I tried to save a buck by picking up the same models under the Hitachi name, the PQ was mediocre at best. So in terms of PQ, some Hitachi OEM brands were superlative compared to the Hitachis themselves, which were average. All, however, were mechanically fragile and pretty much not repairable once they broke down, especially the hifi audio circuits. You don't see very many Hitachi-built VCRs on eBay these days: they're all landfill by now.

Just because Funai recycles the same basic design across several models and brand names does not mean they will perform the same. The Funai Toshibas are actually *worse* with CP sensitivity than the genuine Toshibas were- ask anyone who bought and returned one this year. Funai is not Leica, hand making $9000 cameras that people buy to stick in their safety deposit box. They mass produce these damn DVRs under contracts for thousands at a time, minor variations should not come as a surprise as component sources and production runs change. I have not said the 3576 is equal to an XS-series Toshiba: I have merely observed it is a shade- A SHADE- better than most other Funai econoboxes I've seen. And by "better" I don't necessarily mean overall PQ: I mean consistency of PQ and lack of operational and encoding glitches *compared to other Funai-sourced DVRs*. (The Magnavox with 80GB HDD that was sold alongside the Phillips 3575 last year was a steaming pile of dog sh*t compared to the Phillips: there are definite variations on the Funai theme.) In a world of dwindling DVR options, these "minor" Funai branding differences can be significant to some buyers.

[lordsmurf]

The same encoder chip will give the same results..

This is completely false.
Take the LSI Logic chipsets, for example. The Apex, JVC, LiteOn, Panasonic and Samsung uses all differed in one way or another, in terms of quality. They used differed settings, different bitrates, etc. Even the JVC machines slightly varied from DRM10 to DRM100, in terms of image quality (although they were very close -- both were excellent).

You're talking about different manufacterers, of course they will be different. The same chip in a Funai recorder will give the same results wheather it says Philips, Toshiba, Funai or whoever else sells Funai recorders. They don't make products specifically for one company, they make products and sell them to whoever buys them, they are all the same.

That's still not correct. The machine will only look identical if FIRMWARE, MOTHERBOARD, CHIPSET and SETTINGS match. I'm not so sure they match 100%. Funai is not necessarily a manufacturer/re-brander as much as it is an outsource organization. There is a big difference.

The Magnabox 80GB HDD recorder that was sold next to the Philips 160GB HDD 3575 recorder did not have equal PQ, not necessarily. The playback and several other aspects (tuner, for example) were wildly different -- but both were manufactured by the same company. However, it was clear that the Philips specs were different -- including how it recorded. The size of the HDD was not the only difference.

We can see similar things elsewhere. One good example is the MainConcept encoding engine, and how different software tweak and use it diferently -- even though it's the same base MPEG encoder.

[samijubal]

If the Magnavox isn't from the same production run, with an 80gig HDD I'm guessing it isn't, then it will be different. The local Walmart had the 3575 and 3576 next to each other, that doesn't make them the same recorder. Electronics manufacterers change designs every year sometimes more often. Think what you want, I've seen the inside of enough Funai products to know they don't change from one company to another, only the name on the product changes.

[samijubal]

That's a total joke, there's no difference between an RCA Hitachi or a Sears Hitachi or one sold by Hitachi. They are the exact same VCR and circuit boards, mechanical assemblies, etc. can be swapped from one to another. Any Hitachi VCR very good, that's a joke too, Hitachi VCRs were plagued with problems from the start and stayed that way through their production run.

When RCA switched sources from Panasonic to Hitachi in 1991, their flying-erase-head machines nearly equaled the Minoltas.

You couldn't be more off here. RCA switched from Panasonic to Hitachi in about '84 and to Samsung in about '88, shortly after the buyout by GE. They used Panasonic and Toshiba for some of the high end VCRs but 90% or more of them were Samsung after the switch. This completely proves you don't know what you are talking about. If you are refering to the flying preamp VCRs, they were Toshiba, not Hitachi. They did produce pretty good PQ but had a fragile mechanical assembly that didn't hold up very well.

I had one of those Hitachi RCAs you rave about. As far as features it was fully loaded, 5 heads, HiFi, stereo on the HiFi and linear tracks both, linear tracks could be dubbed after recording, auto tracking, indexing, all cutting edge technology at the time. Unfortunately Hitachi didn't use the double azimuth heads Panasonic had since '81 on their high end VCRs, four years earlier than the RCA. Since they didn't use the double azimuth heads it had the large noise bands during search and couldn't noislessly frame advance like the double azimuth heads, trying to even get a clear picture on pause was a task with their lousy DC capstan motors that had to be stopped at a specific point to get a clear picture, a total waste of 5 heads. Video quality was pretty abysmal compared to cheap VCRs of the era, Orion and Sharp, just to name a couple, had better PQ at a fraction ther cost.

[pepegot1]

I have a JVC 10S. When it does not format my DVD-RW's(most of the time it does, but after several formats it does not), I format them on the computer and then reuse in the recorder-no problems ever.

[orsetto]

When RCA switched sources from Panasonic to Hitachi in 1991, their flying-erase-head machines nearly equaled the Minoltas.

You couldn't be more off here. RCA switched from Panasonic to Hitachi in about '84 and to Samsung in about '88, shortly after the buyout by GE. (..)This completely proves you don't know what you are talking about.

Oh, for the love of...

You are missing the point, which is that I based my remarks on direct experience with the units I speak of. If I failed to cite the correct dates on Hitachi sourcing, I'm sorry, but the RCA editing models I bought on closeout in 1990 and 1992 were *distinctly* Hitachi on the outside and the inside. Perhaps they were overstocks from earlier model years and the Samsungs were already available, I don't know, and it doesn't matter: the top-end RCAs I speak of were made by Hitachi, period. And they were phenomenal until they broke: PQ was top class and leagues better than Panasonic, the search-still-slowmo functions were noiseless and not a problem at all. No one here gives a crap about these VCRs anyway, I only brought them up as an example of OEM model differences: the Hitachi-branded units were nowhere near as good as the RCA-branded units, and once broken RCAs were repaired they were never the same again and performed more like mediocre Hitachis, if they were repairable at all. You don't see a difference in performance among Funai-built DVRs? Okay, fine! I never insist I'm 100% "right" and another poster is 100% "wrong". Some of us here agree with you, some of us don't. Funai is a BIG company and VH is a BIG spread-out group of users: lots of variables. The most valuable aspect of this forum is people reporting their various first-hand experiences, whether or not they agree all the time.

[samijubal]

I'm not missing any point including you don't know what you're talking about. Maybe you can fool other people but it's not going to work on me. I'm not at all convinced you know the difference between a Hitachi and a Funai.

[orsetto]

If everything is going to be a pissing contest with you, then there's no misunderstanding, its simply that you're always right and everyone else here is a fool with his head up his ass: explaining the basis for our posts you question merely annoys you. Well, once again: we've both spent decades dealing with video hardware, professionally and otherwise, but our experience with the same hardware differs widely on some points: mine is no less valid than yours. So I will contribute whenever a topic touches on something I've dealt with, whether it annoys you are not. Someone looking for answers can learn additional tips from opposing reports. Thats what we're all here for.

[robjv1]

Got my recorder back from JVC. According to the invoice, the problem was the DVD-Drive (no big surprise there). They charged $135.00 for the drive replacement and $90/hr for labor, which they spent one hour on it.

One thing I am confused about though -- they attached this cable to my invoice, just sorta taped it on there, without any explanation of what it's for or why it's there. Is this one of the parts they replaced maybe? Somebody clue me in

[robjv1]

Nevermind. I dug deeper into the giant box of packing peanuts and found the drive they replaced as well, along with the circuit board it connects to on the bottom, and it's clearly the power cable to the drive.

Any suggestion what I should do with this old drive? Should I just trash it?

[lordsmurf]

It may simply need a cleaning. Personally, I'd keep it for study. But then again, if I knew it was crap, I'd toss it.

[robjv1]

Well I gave it a good cleaning before I sent it off to JVC and I'd assume that they fully checked it out and found it was dead. I'm a packrat though, so I'll probably wind up keeping it for now!