UPS alternative for quick outage prevention

[vhelp]

I see that there are some UPS type discusisons floating around here. But I have a few separate questions of my own, so..

Ok. Here's the scoop. Where I live, we have many *quick* outages. This usually occurs during a thunderstorm or heavy rains.

. . .

Until I can find the best method of staying off the grid, I am subject to these and many more conditions that plauge many of us who are souly dependant on electicity.

I do have a temporary electric generator (everyone should have one) but it is very limited (a small jumper battery type rigged with a 300 watt invertor) and I only use it for emergency purposes.. ie, a low wattage lightbulb for reading, (so I don't get bored) and a fan to keep cool during this outage period.

Actually, the above is best for a separate discussion, down the road.

. . .

During these sessions the AC will flicker once or twice or more.. it all depends on how loud the thunders bang against the earth, I guess, or the wind blowing on the wires ontop of the poles outside, etc. And when that happens, my pc shuts off. If the flicker is more than aprox 1/2 sec, the pc shuts off. I usually have two pcs running, and sometimes only one pc shuts down and the other stays on, and sometimes both, though it all depends on the length of these AC flickerings.

What I would like to know is, if I get a UPS (hopefully a cheap one) and when another storm is on the horizon, I could switch over to the UPS just before the storm, and continue on without worry that my pc(s) will shut down in the middle of my work.

Now, I don't know how all this works, but I am hoping that some you already have this type of "backup" system in place and I'd like to hear how you are using yours as well as how you have it setup for those rainy days and so on, and am looking for some pointers as well.

Many thanks,

-vhelp 4793

[Soopafresh]

The switch from AC to DC power is instantaneous. So even if the lights go out for a second, the UPS is fast enough to switch to backup power without affecting PC operations. The UPS will beep for a second to tell you it's gone to the batteries. As soon as the AC power is restored, it goes back to regular current.

[gadgetguy]

Nearly any UPS should work for "flickers" of power outages, assuming it's rated for the load you want to put on it. To determine what UPS you want/need, you need to determine 2 things, the load and the runtime. The load is determined by adding the faceplate ratings for all of the devices you want to cover, and the runtime will determine the size/quantity of battery(ies). Note that most newer UPS's come with an interface and software that will perform an orderly shutdown when the battery gets too low.

Most UPS's condition and monitor the line power all of the time and only switch in the battery when needed. These types will have a "switching time" rating on the faceplate. Some (usually more expensive) types are always providing power from the inverted power side (that the battery is always connected to) and there is no "switching time". The former is usually fine for areas that are subject to full power outages, while the latter is better for areas that suffer from both blackouts and "brownout" conditions.

I personally don't use a UPS because I can count on one hand the number of times I've lost power in the past 20 years. I have no mission critical functions that would be devastating if I lost them in a power outage. I do, however, have a line conditioner to protect from surges, fluctuations, and spikes in the power feeds.

[vhelp]

I think that short answer had forfilled all my questions

Actually, what I'm on about in that is that some 5 years ago, when I was researching this for the same purpose they salesguy told me that you had to have certain software setups and that they had to be pricely configured to control everything. I didn't know what he was on about, but I quckly lost my interest and gave it up.. and went with a 12v jumper battery and 300 watt invertor. And I've often refered to it as my backup. I've only use it (for computer work) 2 or three times. The battery I have now is not designed for this purpose and the aH is quite low and power only lasts for 20 minutes using that rig. Anyway.

It sounds like all I would need right now is a cheap inexpansive UPS for a few dollars and I'm all set, and a quick walk down to my nearest K-Mart (a 10 minute walk) is all the energy I need. Oh, I do need to pick up some minor goceries. hmm..

Is that about right ?

My needs are minimal. Two computers at most, though in rainy periods, I would automatically use just one. That goes without say, because I always switch to one computer when it rains heavily. I've been around too long to know the signs before they occur. Anyway.

My ratings are pretty low:

A -- 1 PC @ 300 WATTs ps
A1 -- optional: 2nd pc @ 300 watts ps
B -- 15 watts -- 1 LCD montior, @ aprox 15 watts
C -- 15 watts -- 1 serial (super fast -- just kidding) 56k modem -- 9VAC 1 amp
D -- ?? watts -- 1 external 160g HDD w/ external ac power 12v output (2.0 amp * 115v) = 230 wats (<-- incorrect)

Also, I won't be feeding off this for long periods. Its just to void the rainy shutoffs.

Question for the conversion gurus:

In {D--} to find the wattage, (AMD * VOLTS) = WATTS, but in this case 230 watts for {D--} doesn't quite sound right. I must be missing something here

Thanks,

-vhelp 4794

[fredfillis]

Your PS rating is watts that it supplies not consumes. If you google around, you'll probably find a UPS calculator or two.

For a lot of people, 750VA is plenty of grunt. If protection is only required for fleeting outages, even less would get you by.

[edDV]

Think about the power cut situation and the minimal devices that need to be up for a few minutes (e.g. PC, monitor, internet connection).

Get off the main PC and onto the laptop plus internet router asap to preserve the charge. Consider how you will recharge the UPS (from a 12VDC car?)

Outages up here can last days. At least AT&T externally powers modem connections when the outage is regional.

In worse cases the car powers the laptop for a modem connect. (ignoring gas generators).


PS: Biggest worry in these situations is the fridge/freezer.

[ahhaa]

just fyi

I've just been experimenting with those 13W lo-draw bulbs that replace the old filament-type 60 watters.

I got one of those new car-jumpstarters that contain a motorcycle-sized lead-acid battery at Meanrds for 20 bucks on sale.
It has a cigarette lighter socket, so I plugged in a cheap B&D 100W inverter, which claims it conditions the power for use with computer& video gear. Into that I plugged an ordinary lamp with the low-power bulb and let it rip.

The lamp ran at full brightness without any apparent probs for well over an hour; I didn't want to fully discharge the battery so I stopped there. The battery self-recharged with its own trickle charger with no boilout.

The B&D inverter supplies a full 100 watts, and unusually comes with a useful chart of e-device drawdowns. That would handle 6 of those bulbs, or even two lower draw laptops, plus it has a 5V USB plug.
The included B&D info also addresses inductive loads, stepped AC waveforms, and other stuff that gives some confidence about not frying your gear.

My next experiment is with a full sized truck battery, junk yards still have'em for $20 or so; if I can get a bunch of solar cells out of those silly yard lights...

[gadgetguy]

Your PS rating is watts that it supplies not consumes. If you google around, you'll probably find a UPS calculator or two.

For a lot of people, 750VA is plenty of grunt. If protection is only required for fleeting outages, even less would get you by.

Less may get you by, but if your load is more than the rated amount, your UPS will die an early death and may take connected devices with it.

[vhelp]

I just need to keep the computer from mainly shutting down on me -- not supplying power to it for 20 minutes. Its just to prevent it from shutting down is all.

When I'm on the computer, and its raining, thundering, etc., my lamp (it has a 7watt buld because that is all I need for nightime pc work) will flicker or do dim. That tells me that something is about to happen or has the potential to bring the volts down enough to cause my pc to shut off. That is what I want to prevent. If it looks like I'm going to loose power (as evendent that the power just went out) then I have the option or feature of the system's backup supply to shut down completely and wait out the storm.

That's basically my goal here.

PS: Biggest worry in these situations is the fridge/freezer.

Actually, the biggest thing for me to worry about is paying my electric bill on time. During the summer months, they like to take advantage of this and shut you off. I can't tell you how many times I've been shut off to non-payment. Then, my worry falls to my fridge/freezer!! I usually have $60 dollars or more worth of food in there, that I have to throw out. But this is not my problem here.. just the flickering during rains

-vhelp 4795

[vhelp]

Please realize that in my current living standards, my home is all electric. No gas or oil.

ahhaa, yeah, I too have been experimenting or so over the years in DiY self-power projects. I mainly build from scratch though I haven't completed anything constructive. Don't get me wrong here, I know a few things in self-power/solar and things but I'm bad at math and that hinders me to some degree in these exciting endeavors. I love tinckering with ideas in self-power.

In fact, I have at least one idea for self sustained electric power, without the Sun or Human interventions. But for the time being, its all in my head and that's where it will stay until I have the time to test the idea out through experimentation I'm too bogged down with obligations, work, and other personal matters to get too envolved with this particular idea. But one day I'm going to take the plung and explore it. Then I'll be back and let you guys know whether it worked or not

-vhelp 4796

[edDV]

20 min is easy. Calc the VoltAmps required.

Try 3-5 days when a high tension power pole goes down in storm in March. Helecopters can't fly in new towers then. This was last winter.

[fritzi93]

edDV, I'm guessing you have a generator? That's what you get for living in the sticks. :P

I have a generator I use for work that's come in handy during power outages over the winters here. Usually a few hours at a time, but sometimes a day or two, several times each winter. It's rated 7500 watts (surge) and 6500w steady, 54 amps more or less. More than enough for a fridge, freezer, microwave, coal stove blower, some lights, the backup propane furnace, plus a line to one of the computers.

I just run it out of the shop onto the carport when necessary and run some heavy cords into where power's needed. Never bothered with a switchover at the service box.

I've toyed with the idea of getting a UPS, but since we don't have anything really critical on the computers, they just have surge protectors. No problems so far.

[jagabo]

I have one of my computers set up with a UPS. When the power goes out the UPS switches to battery power automatically. I don't use a very large UPS so runtime on batteries is only about 5 minutes. But that is sufficient for most of our outages which only last a few seconds. Windows is set up to hibernate automatically when the battery reaches 50 percent. So I don't even have the monitor on the battery backed up output, just the conditioned output.

[edDV]

I have a UPS on the "main" computer and a shared generator to keep the freezer frozen. Also, several 12vdc batts + charger to keep the laptops going and a wood stove for heat and hot water. I'm not exactly in the sticks, but trees up here like to fall in high wind.

[JohnnyMalaria]

Just get a UPS. It's merely a mini car battery with some electronics to switch over.

Where I live, clouds merely have to fart and there's a brown out (may be it isn't just a fart) or a 10 second black out (due to the substation protecting itself and everyone served by it).

I have a UPS that is 10 years old. The DSL modem, wireless router, main desktop, monitor and printer/fax/scanner are hooked up to it. It serves its purpose perfectly.

The software bit that the sales guy BS'd about permits your PC to receive notification that the UPS has kicked in. This lets the PC respond as needed (e.g., close apps, sleep, turn a monitor off etc). But any decent UPS will have a CD with the software and a cable (mine has a serial connection but I've nevered bothered with it).

The DIY approach won't be cost effective by time you add in the electronics, inverter, charging etc etc.

[KBeee]

Check the age of your surge protectors. Unless you bought industrial or mission critical ones at approx 10X the cost of the usual domestic ones, then after a year or so they will be doing nothing for your A.C. supply if you have a problem supply. If you don't have a problem supply, then they aren't needed anyway.
Sods Law

As for batteries (without getting esoteric) there are 3 normal kinds.
Sealed lead acid (SLA), normal wet lead acid, and a hybrid that is sorta like the wet but the electrolyte is held in a fibrous matting to prevent spillage etc. SLA's don't like heavy current drains, hence they are no good for car starter motors for instance, but they are maintenance free and cheap. The wet lead acids thrive on a good dose of current drain, and are cheap, but need maintaining.
The hybrids are like the best of both worlds, maintenance free, good instant current supply, spill proof, but are expensive.
SLA's don't like being totally discharged, but once a month should be given a SLIGHTLY higher recharge than the normal trickle charge for an hour or two to "refresh" them. Wet lead acids like a total discharge now and again and a slightly higher recharge once a month for an hour or so too. An intelligent battery charger (that you won't find in a domestic UPS) will automatically do an occasional overcharge to keep the batteries up to scratch.
Many domestic UPS' use SLA's, and they have a finite lifetime. Most claim an 8 year lifespan, but we've found 5 years is more realistic, depending on storage conditions (heat kills them sooner - and not too much heat either - anything over about 21C takes a couple of years off their life).
The moral of this story?
If you've got a normal cheap surge protector, change it every year IF IT DOES ANY SURGE PROTECTING. If it don't, why bother?
If you use a normal domestic UPS, then don't expect the batteries to last more than 5 years, cos if you do, then your 5 minutes (or whatever your UPS is rated at) to save your data and turn off your computer might suddenly be 30 seconds instead.

[JohnnyMalaria]

Thanks for the good advice...

[Nelson37]

THese units are technically Battery Backups, NOT a true UPS. They Switch to battery in a few hundred nanoseconds, where a UPS is always on battery. True UPS are quite rare, and expensive.

Lightning strikes, overload spikes, brownouts, flickers, and days-long hurricane outages quite common where I live. APC, American Power Conversions, along with Panamax, are the only brand I recommend or use. Full damage guarantee, I've seen the checks.

Also had a long conversation with a Panamax or Minuteman factory rep some time ago, with a little tidbit confirmed by another manufacturer. When I went to school, Watts was equal to volts times amps. Apparently this is not exactly so, there is a "conversion factor". The upshot being that the "volt/amps" rating given on the battery unit is actually slightly Lower than the actual wattage output. Apparently all manufacturers use the same conversion factor, so at least they are all equal. Something like a 19" monitor only having 18.1 inches of viewable area.

[ahhaa]

interesting... 8)
I wonder if it is the same factor mentioned in the B&D inverter manual. That goes into some detail about Inverter Output Waveform, which they call a ' modified sine wave' - the square waves weddingcaked into a close approx. of a true AC sine wave.

B&D says the inverter sine wave has a root mean square voltage of 115 V, but that 'most' AC voltmeters are sensitive to average value rather than the RMS. These meters will not read RMS correctly, about 20-30 volts low.
They recommend Fluke 87 or 8080A, Beckman4410 or Triplett 4200 meters to read RMS correctly.

[ahhaa]

They Switch to battery in a few hundred nanoseconds, where a UPS is always on battery.

Laptop batteries perform similarly, are they generally 'on battery' like a true UPS, or switch in if the AC falters?

[SLK001]

It's rated 750 watts (surge) and 650w steady, 54 amps more or less. More than enough for a fridge, freezer, microwave, coal stove blower, some lights, the backup propane furnace, plus a line to one of the computers.

Not hardly... (Did you miss a couple of "zeros" here?)

The power supplies on computers have very bad power factors (how much the current leads/lags the voltage - IIFC, they normally are about .60), so you basically have to double the "wattage" to size your UPS. Nowadays, a good "always on" 1000 VA sine wave converter UPS will cost less than $200. By "always on", it means that you are always drawing power from the UPS - all the incoming AC does is charge the battery. Thus, there is "zero" switching time when the power goes low, off, or flickers. Your system is always properly powered.

I live in South Florida where I am served by FPL (that's Frequent Power Loss) electric. Encoding for eight hours would be near impossible without a UPS.

I have a 4500 Watt generator so when a hurricane knocks out the power, I'll at least be able to power my refrigerator and freezer.

To paraphrase gadgetguy, I can count on 20 hands the number of times I've lost power in the past one year.

[fritzi93]

Not hardly... (Did you miss a couple of "zeros" here?)

Yes, I sure did. :P

Should be 7500/6500. I'll fix it in my previous post, but yeah, you got me.

[SLK001]

Not hardly... (Did you miss a couple of "zeros" here?)

Yes, I sure did. :P

Should be 7500/6500. I'll fix it in my previous post, but yeah, you got me.

Not out to get you, but just trying to ensure that good, relatively accurate info is presented.

More on my power problems, I have a microwave oven with the ubiquitous electronic clock that I cannot set. Actually, I can set it, but if it ever maintains the correct time for more than a week it is a miracle. My TV also has the same issue.

[lordsmurf]

Almost everything "electronic" (computer, tv, DVD, etc) in my home is connected to one of five $100-$200 UPS bricks. I've had an issue this past week with the office breaker tripping for unknown reasons at random times, and while I'd lose my overhead light and ceiling fan, everything else was fine. I have about 45-120 minutes of power on each unit. I simply went and tested/flipped the breaker back. Should I be away from home, having left a computer on for some reason, it has UPS software installed and is authorized to hibernate and shutdown the system when it has less than 4 minutes of power.

Last year there was a monster storm that came through my area during the midnight hours, 50 tornados state-wide, and some of them were mere miles from me. I unplugged everything, grabbed 3 UPS bricks, a laptop, the cable modem, and the small portable tv. I stayed abreast of the weather using the computer and tv in my "safe place" in the house, hunkered down. I pulled phone and cable wiring in to the room to stay connected (my "emergency" 50-foot runs of RG6). I was able to watch and listen, rather than just sit in panic in the dark. Yeah, lightning was still a risk, but that was the least of my worries that night.

FYI: UPS have alarms by default, but you can login and alter them (quieter, longer times between beeps, silent, loud, etc -- exact options depend on brand and model).