Vegas 8.0: Too Much Encoding

[Nadious]

Hey everyone. This is my first post here. WOW, is this place big. Forgive me if this is in the wrong place, I tried to put it in the forum that I thought most appropriate. I have a little issue that I need some advice on and figured this would be THE place to get it. I'm pretty novice, but I've learned a lot as I go. So, keep that in mind when you give me any suggestions / answers. I'm not TOTALLY stupid... but not far from it. Hehehe.

Ok, here's the deal:

I'm working with some MPEG videos that are about 1 hour and 30+ in length. I'm using Sony Vegas 8.0 to edit, DVD Arch 4.5 to author. Today, I recently discovered DVD Rebuilder in conjunction with CCE. I did some test renders on it and WOW... the picture quality looks AMAZING (to fit on a DVD5.) So, here's the problem I'm running into:

I want (if possible) to only have to RENDER my final edit ONCE, using DVD Rebuilder.

Right now, I'm having to import my MPEGs with TMPGEnc 4.0 Xpress. I want to try to obtain the SAME quality as the source video (usually taken from DVD), so I try it with the highest CBR that I can. (9200 I think is what it is.) The first render of it looks great. I import that into Vegas and load any audio tracks that I use in there as well. I do my edits and then get ready to re-render the film.

The issue I've noticed is when I render it back out with the MainConcept codec, even a VERY high bitrate, the second render can give me some very fine artifacts and noise on my picture. (These weren't present in the first TMPGEnc render.) So, to try to remedy that... I tried using VideoRedo and doing the 'Fast Fame' conversion of my VOB files that are taken from the DVD. This (if I understand correctly) gives me the same quality as the original, as it just makes it an MPEG video file, without actually doing a 'encode' to MPEG. (Is that correct?)

The only problem with that.. is that in Vegas, my video and audio played back (in the editor) just fine, but rendering the audio and video and putting them into DVD Arch, upon playback, the were out of sync. (If I used the TMPGEnc video... there is no sync issue.) So, I assume that something goes wrong with the VideoRedo process in converting the VOBs into MPEG.

What I'm chasing after is the absolute highest quality video file I can use that does two things:

1. Meets around the same size standard for the original VOBs from the DVD
2. Retains (or is pretty darn close) to the original picture quality, so when DVD Rebuilder does it's magic, the picture looks absolutely beautiful.

I realize that EVERYONE'S goal is to have these needs met.. but I didn't know if there was someone out there that is used to using these programs that might give me a hand. The way I see it, I'm encoding the source material TWICE (once in TMPGEnc, and then a second time in Vegas) and I'd like do it once, using DVD Rebuilder.

Am I going about this all wrong? Or, anyone have some tips or ticks that they could share that could help me get closer to doing what I want to do? The picture quality from the CCE encoder is just... WOW. It looks SO GOOD, especially to be in a format that will fit DVD5.

[guns1inger]

Mpeg is a lossy compression scheme. Every time you compress, even at high bitrates, you throw away data and create artifacts. Once or twice and you may not notice. Too many times, and it becomes very obvious.

I don't know where your mpegs come from, but I have never had sync issues caused by VideoRedo (or Womble Mpeg Wizard, for that matter). I have had sync issues cause by corruption (I often edit from digital mpeg streams, and sometimes these glitch during broadcast).

I also do not understand why you re-encode in tmpgenc before editing in Vegas.

I would try any of the following.

1. Ditch the first encode in tmpgenc, unless you have a very compelling argument for using it. Personally, I don't see one.

2. Install the Debgugmode Frameserver, and you can frameserve directly from the Vegas timeline to CCE for encoding. This is a good option is you only have a single pass CBR encoding requirement. If you are doing multi-pass encoding, it is often faster to encode to a lossless codec such as lagarith or huffyuv, then encode with CCE.

3. Learn how to use a bitrate calculator. That way, then you do your final encode, it is your final encode, and you do not have to use DVD Rebuilder to encode yet again to make it fit.

[Nadious]

Ok, gunsingler. Thanks for the response. I'll try to expand a little more and maybe give you a better idea where I'm coming from. I also appreciate the suggestions! Like I said, I'm still pretty new... but I'm learning a lot as I go.

My MPEGS come from DVDs. The reason I've used TMPGEnc is that I haven't had much luck getting the video from the DVD into Vegas... that WORKS. As I said, I tired with VideoRedo, but when authoring BACK to DVD, I had some sync issues. (I've only done this once with one of my DVDs. Maybe I should try another one?) I get the video out alone, because I load the AC-3 track (usually 5.1, but not always) into Vegas by breaking down the streams with BeSweet and loading them individually into Vegas. In the past, I have used programs like Womble, which provided really good clear video and rebuilding the DVD. But, I like the option and capabilities of Vegas (what I can do with it editing wise), so that is why I've been using it.

I've tried loading the VOBs strait into Vegas, but the video always looks really jacked up. I've tried using VOB2MPEG as well, and encounter the same issues: The video never really works very well when I try to match it with the audio. Maybe my problem comes from how I'm getting the data off the DVD in the first place? I've used programs like DVDDecryptor and DVDFab HD to only get out the video and audio streams I want from the disc (when first starting.) Maybe these are causing problems?

Also, I have been using the BitRate Calculator. It's very handy. Usually, how I've BEEN doing it.. is that I'll render my final MPEG to the right bitrate, so that DVD Arch doesn't have to 'recompress it.' another time. Then I write it out to DVD aftewards.

Maybe I should try to tackle this step by step, rather than listing so many things right off the bat. So, with that, let me ask:

What's the BEST way to get a good high quality MPEG (matching the original source if possible) video stream that can be used in Vegas? VideoRedo? I would assume that probably does it.

I will also look into the FrameServer. I appreciate it greatly!

[minidv2dvd]

could you use a different term than "jacked up"? it doesn't describe any problem i can think of.

i have used the strip a movie down to movie only with one audio stream with dvdshrink, convert to mpg with vob2mpg and imported that mpeg-2 into vegas and i've never seen any problem.

doing it this way keeps the video in it's original form without any rendering/encoding so there is no loss of quality at all.

from there you can use the built-in mainconcept encoder to reduce the bitrate/size or use debugmode to frameserve to cce.

[Nadious]

Ok, maybe.. 'jacked up' wasn't a good term to use. What I mean is:

Sync issues, some really weird 'video artifacts' (like pixelization and such) while the movie is being previewed in Vegas' preview box on playback. I've never used DVDShrink to strip a movie down. Maybe I'll try that instead of using some of the other programs I have used so far.

I really appreciate all the help, everyone.

Also, I installed the FrameServe plug-in for Vegas. I tried to do a test render with it... I'm assuming that it takes THAT long to render? (It wasn't even at 1% and it was climbing up over 2 1/2 hours.) Just curious how long should I expect an hour and 1/2 video to render when doing the FrameServe.

[minidv2dvd]

frameserving time depends on what you are serving it to, and how many passes. a 5 pass cce render could go on for 6 to 8 hours on a fast quad core more on slower comp.

[guns1inger]

Another thing to remember - Vegas always decompresses mpeg video to the timeline, so you are will be doing a complete re-encode even if you don't frameserve. This will take time. It would also help if you filled in the computer details in your profile so we can better judge what is reasonable for your equipment.

I edit with VideoRedo a lot - removing commercials from either DVDR recordings or digital broadcast streams - and have not seen the behaviour you have been suffering. Perhaps you need to update to the current version of your release.

[Nadious]

I don't think I'm using the FrameServer plug-in right. I think that's why it's saying it is going to take so long. There's no way for me to look at any configuration options or anything like that when I choose 'FrameServer .avi' from the 'Render As' list in Vegas.

I think if I can get the video in (at same quality) using the VOB2MPEG method (with DVD Shrink), that might actually work. Then, after I do my edits, I can render to MainConcept using a VBR (based on the calculator for size) and just make the one final render and be done with it. I think what I'm seeing with my 'pixles' and 'artifacts' have come from me using TMPGEnc first to get the video into Vegas.

I have two machines that I flip-flop back and forth on when I do this. The main one is a laptop that I carry around with me.. one I can use at the office and such when work is slow. It's a Centrino Duo (not sure of the speed), with a gig of RAM. My desktop is actually an Athlon 64x2 (again, can't remember speed off the top of my head), with a gig of ram as well. So, the machines have done the job with the editing and render times. A MainConcept VRB 2-pass render of a 1 hour and 30 minute mpeg took about 2 hours. So, it's not terrible.

I need to find some more information on FrameServe and how to use it with Vegas. For some reason, I just don't think that I'm doing it right.

You guys have been EXTREMELY helpful. Thanks so much.

[minidv2dvd]

the frame server is a little hard to get a handle on at first. start cce. do the render as debgmode in vegas, and give it a place to write the litle avi. drag the little avi that debugmode wrote into cce. make all your config options in cce and click encode.

[Nadious]

Ok, I'll give that a shot.

I'm still having trouble with getting an original source quality image into Vegas. I just did a test using DVD Shrink. I ripped the entire film with 'no compression'. Then, I used VOB2MPG (version 2.5) to convert it to an MPEG. The file goes right into Vegas, but I'm getting some odd stuff with it. For instance, I noticed that I get single frames of just black (complete black screen) that are scattered through out the video.

I ripped the film using the 'no gigabyte' limitation ( to make it one large VOB file.) Do you think I should let it make the 1 gig size limits, so it makes it into several VOBs, before I run VOB2MPG? I don't understand (for the life of me) while this is so hard for me to get the video into as original source, without messing up.

[minidv2dvd]

one big vob is fine. the black frames in the timeline are just visual oddities of the timeline that aren't in the video, unless they really are also showing up in the preview pane. that would be weird, but not very likely. do an encode to test it out.

[Nadious]

They were in the preview pane. (On playback.) If zoomed into all the way into a single frame with Vegas and I could move frame by frame with my keyboard and they would show up in the preview pane when I would advance forward. It's always been stuff like this that has given me trouble when I try to get a source quality video in Vegas. (Or anywhere else, for that matter.) This is why I've been stuck with using TMPGEnc for my first render.

I'm gonna do some more testing.

I also tried to Fame Serve today (again) in Vegas. I left the house for over 7 hours and when I came back, it was still going. The timer that was left on the Vegas Encoder window said over 1 hour left, but the seconds kept going up and down. It was almost like it was stuck. I checked my output folder (where the AVI was to be written) and the file was only 41 megs in size!

This doesn't sound like it normal behavior to me. I've got to be doing something wrong, or something isn't configured properly.

*sigh* Why is this so difficult!??!? I'm trying to do some of the things mentioned above on my desktop (instead of the laptop) and see if I get any different results.

Edit: Ok, I've done some more tests. This is what is happening:

Using DVD Shrink, I've managed to rip the film out. If I use VOB2MPG, the video appears to be correct, but the audio is out of sync. If I manually load tracks (that have been made using BeSweet), it is still out of sync. So, this both the SOURCE audio and even manually loaded tracks that are both out of sync with the picture. (It's out of sync by about... 4 or 5 seconds.)

If I use VideoRedo, the audio and video are in sync... however, I get odd frame errors. For example: During parts of the film, if you go FRAME by FRAME on the Vegas time line, you can see where it appears that frames from other parts of the scene are 'out of order'. During normal playback, this appears kind of like a... 'blip' in the picture. It happens so fast that you can't tell what it is, but if you slow it down and go frame by frame, you can see the frame in question doesn't match the frames around it. (It's like it has jumped ahead a few frames too early.)

[minidv2dvd]

sounds like a bad source. not much that can be done if the source was badly encoded.

the output from the frameserver may not show up until it's done. don't stop it while it's running or you'll end up with nothing. "time" to an encoder is flexible as you noticed. just let it go if it's still running and doesn't show up in task manager as "not responding".

[Nadious]

Ok. Maybe I'll just let it go all night and see what we come up with.

As far as a 'bad source'.... what's the best method to extract a video and audio title from a DVD? DVD Shrink? DVD Decryptor? Maybe I should start with trying to get a better source and work from there.

[minidv2dvd]

get anydvd, start it, and then copy the video_ts folder to the hard drive. it's a copy of the original dvd without the protection systems. then use shrink to extract the movie only. but, no commercial dvd would have blank black frames during the movie. only a poorly encoded amateur video could.

[Nadious]

Ok. I'll try that. Some other things I have noticed:

I stuck the original DVD in the drive and extracted the Video and Audio stream, using DVD Decrypter. I played the VOB file that was created in my DVD player on my PC and everything was fine. It appeared to look right and the sound was in sync. I then ran VOB2MPG on the same VOB and when I put the MPEG into Vegas, it was out of sync. (Or if I tried to add the audio manually, by using BeSweet, got the same results.)

So, there's definately something happening when I'm trying to use VOB2MPG that is causing some problems. I thought about just trying to use the VOB itself and edit it in Vegas, but then I experience odd visual glitches in. These don't show up on PLAYING the VoB with my DVD software, but when it's put in Vegas, they show up during playback.

I'm gonna try your method of copying the Video_TS folder and doing it that way. We'll see what we come up with.

And, yes... this is a commercial DVD. So, it was done professionally.

[Nadious]

Ugh... I just can't seem to get around this. This is driving me crazy.

I tried other DVDs to see maybe if the one that I was working with was having some trouble. But, I'm getting the same results on all of the DVDs that I try. (And these are commercial ones.) I don't know if it is something with my computer that is giving me trouble or what...

If I rip the film (using DVD Shrink, DVD Decrypter, or whatever)... the VoBs play fine in my player. But, I can't edit VoBs, because when they are imported into Vegas, I get visual artifacts and glitches.

So, if I convert it with VOB2MPG, I run into the audio sync errors. (Even if I extract the video alone and try to manually add audio tracks... they are still out of sync with the film.) I guess if I can find out how many frames / seconds it is off, I could try to manually align the audio in Vegas.

If I use VideoRedo on the VoB rips (again, which play fine in my DVD app), I then get the 'out of order frames' and 'black frames' that show up on playback in Vegas.

The ONLY way that I can get a video stream that seems to work (no glitches, and in sync with the audio) is using TMPGEnc. But, as you all have stated, that causes me to render the film TWICE.

Let me ask this.... is there a different video format I can convert to that will work in Vegas? One that is either the same as the source, or higher quality than trying to do a render with TMPGEnc? If I can just get a high quality (same as source, hopefully) video track that I can edit without any problems, than I can just do my final encode and be done with it when I'm done working with Vegas.

This whole 'ordeal' just doesn't make ANY sense to me. I shouldn't be having this many problems.

[minidv2dvd]

are you trying to shrink a commercial dvd to fit on a dvdr or actually cut it up and edit it? if just fitting it to dvdr use dvd rebuilder. if you want to work in mpeg and edit you might try the womble products, like mpeg video wizard.

as for out of sync, it's possible the audio has a built in delay. you can let DGMPGDec demux the original vobs and the delay will be written as part of the audio filename.

[Nadious]

I can't thank you enough for your continued helped. (All of you) I'm going to try your recommendation in using the program to see if the delay is written into it.

I'm using Vegas because of the editing capabilities that I need for my projects. I've used like Womble DVD and such and they do the trick, but Vegas allows me to do a little more flexibility with my editing options, so that's why I'm using it.

I'll try a few tests with the demux on the VOBs and see what I come up with. If I can fix the audio delay / sync issues, then I can use the VOB2MPG converts and be done.

We'll see how it goes!

[Nadious]

Ok! I'm happy here with some good news (finally)

I just did another DVD last night (it's been awhile since I could do some tests) and I found something out:

The videos encoded with VideoRedo are, in fact, ok. The 'double frames' and 'out of place frames' only happen in the playback on Vegas. When I hit a spot where there was some of those issues, I just either expanded the timeline, or shrank it, and played the piece back again and noticed that it wasn't doing it anymore. So, all those odd 'graphic oddities' that I was getting were a result of Vegas... not the stream itself.

So, after finishing a quick edit and watching a large part of the film, it seemed to work. So, this gives me a direct stream copy (from VideoRedo) and then only ONE encode (using the Bitrate calculator.) Seemed to work good and the picture quality was very nice.

So, I'm gonna try a few more here and see if I have the same results.

Thanks (everyone) for your help. I couldn't have gotten to where I wanted to be without all your suggestions.

Edit: Quick question: When I import my video into Vegas and edit it, I noticed it is 'interlaced.' When I render it, I usually make it 'progressive.' Is this going to mess anything up? I know what the difference from Interlace to Progressive IS, but I didn't know if converting an interlaced video to Progressive on re-encode is a bad thing.

[guns1inger]

What are you rendering for/to ?

Ideally, you should output interlaced as interlaced. Assuming your aren't deinterlacing, but simply flagging the file as progressive, it will probably play back OK on the PC. If you are encoding for DVD however, you may find you get artifacts or unpredictable playback on standalone players.

[Nadious]

I'm rendering to DVD. The reason I rendered as 'progressive' was that the output is being displayed on a HD Progressive TV. (Just got it last weekend.) I played the test edit that I did (that worked correctly) and it appeared to look and play back correctly. I figured progressive was the choice to use, as it was better than interlaced. But, then again, that's why I was asking. So, if the source is interlaced, I should render it as interlaced, correct?

[guns1inger]

Your TV will work out how best to display it. What is your framerate ? What is your player ?

[Nadious]

Ok, before I answer that... let me explain what I'm running into here. The more I'm working on this stuff, the more I'm realizing the problem is probably with Vegas and the playback of the video.

I decided to test (yet another) video. The process I used is:

1. Copied contents of the DVD to the PC HDD.
2. Used DVD Shrink to extract video and one audio track
3. Used VideoRedo to convert the VOBs into an MPEG, retaining the original quality of the video

At this point, the MPEG plays correct. The audio is on sync, there are no distortions or graphical glitches (oddities) that are seen. When I then try to import this MPEG into Vegas, playback produces some problems, namely:

The video is playing at a higher rate of speed than the audio. The same MPEG (that plays fine in a software player on the PC) is getting messed up somehow upon introduction into Vegas, or at least... during playback. Now, in numerous places that I have read, they state that this is just in playback only and that when rendered, the file outputs properly. The only drawback I have, is that trying to do any edits to the video track (with 'out of sync' audio) makes doing any type of editing very difficult.

My last test did not do this. (As stated above), even though I'm using the same exact process. Is is possible there are settings in Vegas that need to be adjusted to have play back on the timeline actually work right? The details fo the file are as follows:

720x480x32, 29.970fps
Field Order = Upper Field First (interlaced)

These match both my project and display settings, but for some reason the video plays at a fast rate of speed (even looks like it has been sped up), which causes my audio to be out of sync by about a second or two in playback.

Any ideas?

[Nadious]

Grrrr.... I've tried several other DVDs and I'm getting the same results now on all of them. (I don't understand why the last one before this, that I did, worked properly.)

It's like the video is in 'fast forward', it's playing too quick and the audio is out of sync with the picture. It HAS to be something in Vegas, because the actual MPEG file plays correctly if I view it in a player.

So, right now... the only way to get an editable MPEG file that WORKS correctly in Vegas, is to run it through TMPGEnc FIRST... but then that negates my whole reason for only having to do ONE encode.

Does anyone here actually work with source files (in Vegas) that were taken from a DVD? Is there some settings in Vegas or something I need to check...

This is starting to aggravate me beyond words.

[minidv2dvd]

no i don't use vegas for work with mpeg-2. if i had to do some with vegas i would convert it to a lossless avi first and then edit and re-encode to mpeg-2. i only use vegas for editable stuff like DVavi.

[Nadious]

Well, maybe that's an angle I can try then. I did some looking around to see if there was a format that I could convert the source to (really just for the video track only) and then use THAT in Vegas, while still maintaining the source quality, so when I render my final render, it's good to go.

Is there a program (or format) that I can use that you would recommend for that?

[minidv2dvd]

use vdubmod and the lagarith codec. it will create a large file.

[Nadious]

Ok, on my initial test, it seemed to work great! The preview is in sync with my audio files, the render comes out good. I've only one into one MINOR issue and I'm sure it's a setting that I need to change in Virtualdub.

When I recompress my video using the Lagarith codec, the video looks exactly like the source quality, except for one thing: The 16:9 aspect ratio has been converted to a 4:3. I can tell this by when I preview the converted file and instead of my image reaching both sides of the screen (as it does with my VOB preview from my DVD rip), I get space on both sides.

Is there a setting a need to check or change to preserve the 16:9 aspect ratio on my recompress? I tried looking but dang if that program doesn't have a million options.

Edit: Also, I've noticed that my AVI has a framerate of 23.976. Most all of the video files I have worked with in the past say that they have a framerate of 29.976. Is this going to pose a problem with I render this edit in MPG format? When using Virtualdub, should I convert the framerate, or leave it as 23.976?