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  1. Member
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    No, its probable that your ongoing complaints very nearly cost you that solution. Most of the members here have a low tolerance for whining, I almost didn't bother with you either.

    Many members at this site regularly shop at WalMart online for video-related items. Strange that nobody else mentioned it. I only found it by chance. I was looking for information on another item, a Magnavox converter box that somebody had asked about.

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    I only recently found this particular forum, just this month. There might very well be a mention of it in this forum somewhere, but unfortunately I have not seen it. Many others I've spoken to in others have had similar complaints but none of us had found the alternative we wished for. Most of us decided to hold out for Panasonic, and no one I saw had mentioned the Magnavox recorder. The Phillips I was aware of, but it was unattainable to me at least in my searches, and I wasn't keen on them (bad luck in past experiences) as it was so I thought there was nothing else. Panasonic had introduced Blu-ray models in Japan early on as expected, but recently Australia and other areas did too, so I thought great, U.S. is next. Not yet I guess. They all told me TIVO, and the high price tag was the hold-up. The Magnavox, though not a good brand for me in the past, is now worth a try since my resources are limited. Customers for the most part seem to like the ones they purchased. It appears to have a QAM tuner too which will appeal to cable subscribers. This looks like a good find from what I can see and I was being sincere when I thanked you for it. Frustration can turn to comments not meant to be insulting, but none the less are when read. Wishing in silence got me nowhere. Screaming got some notice and led to great suggestions if not for the machine I wanted, but knowing what to ask for. Btw, almost every good find I make is by accident, so I understand exactly what you mean by coming across the Magnavox while searching for something else. I never find what I want by looking for it directly. I happened upon this forum by accident too and I'm glad I did. The 'whining" paid off for me.

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    Originally Posted by Electrox3d View Post
    The HDD recorders (ummm ever heard of TiVo) were basicly invented in the US. They're in just about every home in some form or another! TiVo's headquarters are two towns over from where I live.

    Also AT&T's UVerse is IP TV that streams directly to HDD box, no real cable or satellite needed.

    What people were you visiting in the US that didn't have this wonderful technology??

    ummm, TIVO sucks because those who have it must pay a fee to use it. Only a fool would do that unless they had no other choice, and unfortunately, we here in the U.S. have no other choice because the cable companies and movie studios are preventing it with their copy-protection scams.

    A standalone hdd recorder plays dvds as well as records, so you don't need to have two separate machines, and it can record to both hard drive and to hard disk. It does everything that the almighty TIVO does without having to rent the machine or subscribe to a service. We'd be able to buy the recorder/player outright and it'd be ours to keep and record & play as we wish, with no further cost.

    One would think that U.S. citizens would be screaming that every other country has these recorders but us, but for some reason, our citizens haven't realized that the cable companies & studios are holding us captive, forcing us to pay them for the privilege of recording instead of allowing us the freedom to record without a fee. Really? We'd rather buy both a recorder and a player separately when we have the technology to implement everything in one machine? Not me. I don't have the space for multiple boxes. A lot of us don't require set-top boxes at all, so all we'd need is the one recorder/player. Do we enjoy paying more for less unnecessarily, or have we just given up hope and resigned ourselves to TIVO enslavement due to the greed & thuggery of the cable companies and movie studios ?

    We need to make our dissatisfaction known rather than blindly accepting being swindled. And we sure shouldn't be bragging about it as if it were a wonderfully innovative American technological advancement. Yeah we have the technology, but we're forbidden to use it.
    Last edited by nina96; 30th Sep 2010 at 07:24.

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    Originally Posted by nina96 View Post
    One would think that U.S. citizens would be screaming that every other country has these recorders but us
    Uh, technically we do still have access to a few HDD recorders, just that there's not very much variety of them anymore, since Pioneer and Panasonic decided to quit making them for the US market. I think you can still get ones made by Magnavox and until recently, Philips made one, too, but then again, you may only be able to find them as refurbs now, unfortunately.

    As to why they're fading away in the US marketplace, it's not got to do with the studios and TiVo. The reason those companies got out of the business (at least initially) was the legislation that mandated that recording devices manufactured after a certain date had to include an ATSC tuner in addition to (or instead of) the traditional NTSC one. Panasonic and Pioneer didn't want to have to re-engineer these expensive products, especially as they weren't selling all that well in the US. I remember when I bought my first one (a Panasonic DMR-EH55, I think), it cost over $500, if I remember correctly. Not a price the Wal-Mart crowd would have been comfortable with when you could have gotten one without HDD for less than half that price.

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    There are no Panasonic hdd recorders here with digital tuners, never were, only ntsc dvd recorders with hard drive. Yeah, I saw a Magnavox with a digital tuner and a hard drive here, but that was some time ago. They ought to be plentiful and they ought have 'em in blu-ray if people want them, but they don't. Yep, the price is too high, but we all know how fast that would come down if everybody was making & selling them here, but they're not, and that is because of the copyright blockage. The demand would emerge if they were plentiful here because the prices would be competitive. I found a Panasonic EH55, cheap---GREAT machine. All it needs is a digtal tuner.

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    Originally Posted by nina96 View Post
    There are no Panasonic hdd recorders here with digital tuners, never were, only ntsc dvd recorders with hard drive.
    I never said there were. My post said that the government mandate that required digital tuners after a certain manufacture date is part of what drove Panasonic out of the HDD-recorder market in the US>

    Originally Posted by nina96 View Post
    They ought to be plentiful and they ought have 'em in blu-ray if people want them, but they don't. Yep, the price is too high, but we all know how fast that would come down if everybody was making & selling them here, but they're not, and that is because of the copyright blockage.
    I'm pretty sure copyright restrictions are the reason that we don't have BluRay recorders. Don't remember if it was the studios, or the BluRay 'Alliance' that didn't want the consumer to have the possibility of recording in HD.

  7. Originally Posted by amckinney View Post
    Originally Posted by nina96 View Post
    One would think that U.S. citizens would be screaming that every other country has these recorders but us

    As to why they're fading away in the US marketplace, it's not got to do with the studios and TiVo. The reason those companies got out of the business (at least initially) was the legislation that mandated that recording devices manufactured after a certain date had to include an ATSC tuner in addition to (or instead of) the traditional NTSC one.
    That's only half right. It was include an ATSC tuner or have no tuner. There are plenty of DVD recorders without any tuner. They could have manufactered HDD recorders without any tuner and it wouldn't have cost any more money, in fact, it would have saved them money. Since most people have a cable box or satellite receiver, a tuner isn't really a must have anyway.

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    This thread originally ended more than a year ago. I know because I was there and so was nina96.

    Go back to the previous page and you will see that nina96 had the exact same complaints back then, and got the same answers today as she did previously. Nothing that affects the American public's desire for these machine has changed in the past year or will likely ever change. Why she feels it's useful to revisit this all over again, more than a year later, is beyond comprehension.

    As one of my father's friends used to say, wish in one hand and spit in the other and see which hand fills up first.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 30th Sep 2010 at 18:14.

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    Originally Posted by amckinney View Post
    Originally Posted by nina96 View Post
    There are no Panasonic hdd recorders here with digital tuners, never were, only ntsc dvd recorders with hard drive.
    I never said there were. My post said that the government mandate that required digital tuners after a certain manufacture date is part of what drove Panasonic out of the HDD-recorder market in the US>

    Originally Posted by nina96 View Post
    They ought to be plentiful and they ought have 'em in blu-ray if people want them, but they don't. Yep, the price is too high, but we all know how fast that would come down if everybody was making & selling them here, but they're not, and that is because of the copyright blockage.
    I'm pretty sure copyright restrictions are the reason that we don't have BluRay recorders. Don't remember if it was the studios, or the BluRay 'Alliance' that didn't want the consumer to have the possibility of recording in HD.
    Sorry, I wasn't trying to disparage your comment or insinuate that you misstated anything. My intent was to state what I knew. I thought the Magnavox was going to be a good temporary solution for me when it was pointed out some time ago that Walmart was still selling them, but as it turned out, I was too late in obtaining one new. As a result, yes, I am still frustrated and I am hardly the only one. I know many people who also continue to debate this dilemma as a means of trying to get others to take notice and join us in making it known to manufacturers that YES, we ARE interested in buying them here at a decent price. These forums are often a great way of getting the word out.

    As I and a number of others are still trying to keep hope alive regarding bringing the recorders we desire to the U.S., I was re-directed to this forum where I re-stated my case. Clearly I am not the only one who saw fit to revisit this debate once again, or else others would have let it go and would not have found it useful to re-respond to my recent posts.

    Obviously we all agree that the demand isn't there. That is due to the price being too high for standalone recorders and the fact that cable dvrs & TIVO have become so standard for many,that people aren't generally seeking alternatives. Indeed, why seek alternatives that aren't available to you? I'm saying though, that there are still a large number of us who still desire these recorders very badly, & we believe others would switch in a heartbeat if the machines were available. The reason for revisiting this debate is to generate interest to get more people to demand the option. THAT is why I find it useful to continue debating.

    If the alternatives were there at a reasonable price (which would happen if the standalones were sold by multiple companies in the U.S.), the demand WOULD be there. Also, you can't convince me that our current economy hasn't also slowed the demand, so the reasons for lack of demand are not exactly the same as they were even a couple of years ago. We were actually taking baby steps towards bringing hdd recorders to the U.S. before the economy stagnated. There is no reason to think things will never change at all.

    From an article by Robert Silva entitled: "The Case of the Disappearing DVD Recorder"
    "...contrary to what you might think, it is not all the fault of Panasonic, Samsung, Sony, Toshiba and other Asian-based consumer electronics manufacturers....The real reason that DVD recorders are scarce in the U.S., and Blu-ray Disc recorders are non-existent, can be squarely laid at the foot of the U.S. movie studios and cable/satellite providers, which place restrictions on video recording that make the continued selling new DVD recorders, let alone providing access to standalone Blu-ray Disc recorders, in the U.S. consumer market an increasingly unprofitable venture.

    Most consumers buy a DVD recorder to record television programs for later viewing. So how are movie studios and cable/satellite program providers conspiring to limit your access to such video recording? The implementation of a copy-protection scheme that severely restricts what you can record and how you can record it.
    For example, HBO and some other cable and network programmers copy-protect some of their programs on a random basis. The type of copy protection that they use (referred to as "Record Once") allows an initial recording to a temporary storage device (such as to a hard drive of a DVD recorder/Hard Drive combo, a cable DVR, TIVO, but not necessarily to a permanent storage format, such as DVD). In addition, once you have made your recording to cable DVR, TIVO, or Hard Drive, you are not allowed to make a copy of the initial recording to a DVD or VHS.
    In other words, while you can make a recording to temporary storage format, such as DVR-type device, you cannot make a "hard copy" onto DVD to add to your permanent collection. "Record Once" means recording once on a temporary storage medium, not to a hard copy, such as DVD.
    As a result, consumers are finding out quickly that newer DVD recorders and DVD Recorder/VHS combo units are unable record programs from HBO or other premium channels, and definitely not Pay-Per-View or On-Demand programming ("Record Never"), due to the types of copy-protection employed to restrict recording onto DVD. This isn't the fault of the DVD recorder, or the DVD recorder manufacturer; it is the enforcement of copy-protection schemes required by the movie studios and other content providers, which is also backed up legal court rulings. It is a "Catch 22". You have the right to record, but the content owners and providers also have the legal right to protect copyrighted content from being recorded. As a result, the ability to make a hard-copy recording may be prevented.

    TECH NOTE: There is no way around the "Record Once" copy-protection scheme used by broadcasters and cable/satellite providers unless you use a DVD Recorder that can record on a DVD-RW disc in VR Mode or a DVD-RAM format disc that is CPRM compatible (look on the package). However, keep in mind that DVD-RW VR Mode or DVD-RAM recorded discs are not playable on most DVD players (just Panasonic and few others - refer to user manuals).
    The Cable/Satellite DVR Factor
    As mentioned above, cable/satellite DVRs and TIVO do allow recordings of most content (except for pay-per-view and on-demand programming). However, since the recordings are made on a hard drive instead of a disc, they are not permanently saved (unless you have an extremely large hard drive). This is acceptable to movie studios and other content providers as further copies of the hard drive recording cannot be made.
    This state of affairs is also a profit center for cable/Satellite service providers as they can lease or rent DVRs and also offer video "on demand" services that they can charge their subscribers. Since the DVR is required to record "Record Once" programming, the consumer is locked into this added expense if the they want the ability to record many of the of their favorite shows and movies.
    Of course, if you are fortunate to own the increasingly scarce DVD recorder/Hard Drive combination, you should be able to record your program onto the Hard Drive of the DVD Recorder/Hard Drive Combo, but if copy-protection is implemented within the program, you will be prevented from making a copy of your hard drive recording to DVD.
    Where are the Blu-ray Disc Recorders?
    There are no current plans to market standalone Blu-ray Disc recorders in the U.S market. One factor contributing to this state of affairs is the increasing use of TIVO and Cable/Satellite DVRs in the U.S., which is perceived by Asian-based manufacturers to affect the potential competitive success of Blu-ray as a recording option.
    In addition, copy-protection concerns and potential piracy have the movie studios "paranoid" about mainstream consumers having the ability to record high definition video content that can be saved in permanent hard-copy format, such as Blu-ray Disc.
    Video copy-protection and the DVR factor are the main reasons why standalone Blu-ray Disc recorders are not available in the U.S., although they are plentiful in Japan and are being introduced elsewhere. The manufacturers simply don't want to hassle the expense of complying with the recording restrictions imposed in the U.S. market.
    A Final Word
    Although not all TV, cable, and satellite programming is currently affected by "Record Once" or "Record Never" copy-protection schemes, and can still be recorded using a DVD recorder (although you often won't know until you find out if the program was able to be recorded), the era of widespread video recording of TV, cable and satellite programs we once enjoyed in the VCR era is slowly coming to end. So next time you go shopping for a DVD Recorder, don't be surprised at the slim-pickins. It is all part of the "plan"."

    We ARE being deliberately deprived of options so that these companies can keep us dependent on them (sort of like how big govt keeps bus enslaved under their control). I'm just saying why not rally against them? It's hardly an unworthy, irrational or unattainable goal.
    Last edited by nina96; 1st Oct 2010 at 00:22.

  10. Member netmask56's Avatar
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    Here in Sydney Oz I wouldn't be without my Beyonwiz twin tuner PVR/network player Beyonwiz PVR - records 2 different programs at the same time whilst playing back something previously recorded on the internal hard disk or over the network or a USB drive connected. Direct digital recording as MPEG2 with AC3 audio, standard definition and high definition stations all for au$450.
    You can preprogram commercial jumps from10 seconds to whatever as well as conventional fast forward etc. Most PVR's on sale here do this to some extent. Basically I haven't seen a commercial in 2 years except for when I actually want to watch live TV, by this I mean over the air. I don't bother with cable. It's easy to transfer recordings off the unit via LAN or USB and the file is a standard MPEG2TS format.
    BeyonWiz T3 PVR ~ Popcorn A-500 ~ Samsung ES8000 65" LED TV ~ Windows 7 64bit ~ Yamaha RX-A1070 ~ QnapTS851-4G

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    @nina96 I see nothing that would inspire hope amongst your complaints and nothing new either. Anybody who is a regular visitor at VideoHelp, or a similar website, has read basically the same statements many times before. You also failed to mention that the source of your "article" is a blog at hometheater.about.com.

    Overturning US copyright laws and FCC rulings, or bashing the entertainment industry into submission, or steering US viewing habits away from paid TV services, merely by doing more whining here or elsewhere is not going to be easy. Good luck with that.

    I guess when some one has a need to complain incessantly about their problems, they can't find the time to actually to do anything about them. If you haven't found Magnavox HDD DVD recorders it's only because you haven't bothered to type "Magnavox HDD DVD recorder" into Google's search box recently. Walmart has been selling Magnavox HDD DVD recorders online over the past year, though they have run out of stock at times. Walmart still sells them. Amazon sells them. Target sells them online as well. A few other places do too, sometimes as refurbs. It's hard to say how much longer they will last. Prices started dropping recently, which may mean people aren't buying them and they are about to be discontinued.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 1st Oct 2010 at 11:44.

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    If you want DVD recorders, go to Amazon.com. If you want them in your neighborhood store so you don't have to buy on the internet, good luck with that. Amazon has a very large selection.

    While nina96's post does have some good points about the cable industry, the reality is that in the USA that almost nobody wants to keep what they record. The fact that SOME people desperately wish to do so in no way makes the case that MOST people want to do so.

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    I provided the name of the author and the title of the article, so anyone who googled those pieces of info would have been directed to the home theater blog. Nothing was hidden. Excuse me for not simply posting a link. I thought that posting the relevant text directly, would save others from having to open up a new page. The implication that I was being somehow deceptive in doing that is false, not to mention pot calling the kettle black in terms of accusations of bullying others into submitting to their pov by ridiculing my views as valueless and redundant. It's a blog..so what? This forum is basically a collection of blogs as well. We're just people giving opinions, exchanging information here. And if mine are considered too repetitive, or useless by some, ok, that's fine. I initially responded to a sarcastic comment with one of my own, and others responded to me in kind. But I went on to clarify my point. It wasn't just a negative response to a position I disagreed with. I had a purpose and I attempted to illustrate as best I could. I didn't respond with the sole purpose of attacking someone I was annoyed with.

    I never said my opinion was everybody's opinion, nor did I claim that my argument was new. In fact I explained why I continue to state my case. I was redirected to this site because someone who shares my views stumbled onto this site alerted me to it, unaware that I'd already posted there before. I myself was unaware of it until reminded. I reiterated that my reason for continuing to argue the same point is because I have found that most people are now so entrenched in the way things are, and that many still aren't even aware of the options that could easily become available. Many have expressed that they found the info helpful, just as I have found theirs enormously informative, whether I agreed with them or not. Many have also agreed that if the standalones were available at an affordable price, they'd dump TIVO in a second, so my views are not baseless, worthless or hopeless. People do have the power to change things, and they do all the time.

    I agree jman98, most us don't want to keep what we record, which is why we find the hard drive immensely appealing. A standalone hdd with digital tuner, would serve that purpose, plus we could play dvds on the same machine, and still have the option to record to hard disk if desired, all without fees beyond the initial purchase of the recorder. For some, a recorder that is also capable of playing/recording Blu-ray would be icing on the cake.

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    Originally Posted by nina96 View Post
    I was redirected to this site because someone who shares my views stumbled onto this site alerted me to it, unaware that I'd already posted there before. I myself was unaware of it until reminded. I reiterated that my reason for continuing to argue the same point is because I have found that most people are now so entrenched in the way things are, and that many still aren't even aware of the options that could easily become available. Many have expressed that they found the info helpful, just as I have found theirs enormously informative, whether I agreed with them or not. Many have also agreed that if the standalones were available at an affordable price, they'd dump TIVO in a second, so my views are not baseless, worthless or hopeless. People do have the power to change things, and they do all the time.
    This thread first ended in 2008. You dug it up in 2009, and restarted an old dispute, then again in 2010 for the purpose of doing the same thing. "

    This makes you a gravedigger, someone who digs up old threads and stirs up old arguments for their own gratification. You are not so new to Internet forums that you don't know this is not acceptable behavior. People gave you the benefit of the doubt the first time because you were a new member. " I didn't remember" is not a believable excuse. Seriously, you can't be bothered to read even the last 2 posts in a thread, or the date on the first or last post before replying? How stupid do you think people are?
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 1st Oct 2010 at 23:07.

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    Time to close another thread.
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