Thanks, mpack, for this and the other clarifications you've offered. In turn we in USA should clarify for you that we CAN indeed fast-forward thru the commercials and ads and promos using the cable/satellite provided PVR: that and the idiot-proof timeshift function are the two primary selling points. And again, note that adjusted for worldwide monetary exchange, we essentially pay pennies for this "proprietary" PVR each month. I assure you, if the monthly rate went up to what you pay in the UK for a Sky PVR the popularity might easily dwindle and bring back demand for the independent DVD/HDD recorder. Also, you are correct that the ability to skip advertisements is under complete control of the cable-satellite vendor, in our country as well as yours. There has been pressure here by USA content owners to make advertisements "unskippable" when using a proprietary PVR or a TiVO. Should that ever come to pass, that might also increase demand for independent DVD/HDD machines. But I don't think it would matter much: Americans will tolerate almost anything as long as they don't have to rewire or learn anything technical to timeshift. A few will balk loudly if they can't skip commercials, the rest will just shrug: since they aren't making permanent copies its no big deal.Originally Posted by mpack
Another consideration in the USA is we have far higher cable service penetration than anywhere else in the world, and our cable vendors openly defy our government by insisting on individual proprietary decoder boxes despite regulations forbidding them to do that. Since we are forced to use a proprietary decoder box for everything, the ONLY way we can obtain a convenient one-touch PVR is if we rent a decoder box with *built-in* PVR. The moment we try to use an *independent* recorder with our cable service, all convenience is lost. Also note the higher prevalence of really huge flat-panel TV displays in America: these require full HDTV signal or they look terrible, our only source for full HDTV timeshift is the proprietary PVR, so again we are a captive market. Hollywood has more influence in USA than other countries, and they do NOT want consumers to have HDTV archiving ability, so they heavily promote the proprietary PVR as well. Finally, to address your point about DVD playback: in the US, DVD *players* are utterly disposable devices that cost comparably nothing. We buy new ones every year or so as our children break them. For us, there's no particular advantage to having DVD playback built into the PVR.
Naturally, most Americans here on VideoHelp are at odds with these majority attitudes, but as PuzZLer stated, we are considered "peculiar" by our friends and family anyway. Ironically, in America all serious interest in video recording died with the introduction of the DVD format in 1997. Once VCRs hit their steep decline, that was the end. Though VHS is hopelessly obsolete, its ease of use will probably never be duplicated in the digital age. VHS and the audio cassette were the only universally understood and accepted consumer recording technologies we will ever see: digital is too contaminated by its computer origins and the restrictions enforced by content owners. RIP, analog...
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orsetto wrote:
in the US, DVD *players* are utterly disposable devices that cost comparably nothing.
We buy new ones every year or so as our children break them.
of the planned-obsolescence conspiracy? Now I understand everything!
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I own both PVR and HDD/DVD recorders. In Canada, PVRs are sold to consumers, if you have a packaged cable deal, no additional monthly charge for the PVR unless it's a second cable box in the same household. I'm still on CRT TV, so my dual tuner 80 GB PVR is SD (Standard Definition) only, all-digital map which gives a very clean and crisp image on a CRT TV and at $148 with a 3-year warranty, who wouldn't get one. I've actually upgraded my PVR with a 160GB, the most it can accept, so basically killed my warranty with the cable company, but now have a 5-year warranty with Seagate, kinda got rid of the middle man!
Having said all this there's no way that I'd do without a HDD/DVD recorder. I, like many others, like to archive movies, subscribing to a movie channel package, recorded on the PVR which are then transfered down in real time through good S-Video cables, gives me very good results. A have an array of HDD/DVD recorders (ILO HD04, tweeked to bypass CP issues) a Philips 720 with Component in which I send the component output on an ILO R04 (another unit tweeked to bypass CP) into, and more recently I got myself a Liteon 740GX HDD/DVD DL recorder. I've replaced the burners in all my Liteons and ILO recorders. Also have the Philips 3575 for future use (upconverting ATSC HDD recorder).
I suspect that next year, after the ATSC transition in the US takes effect, a slew of NTSC HDD recorders will hit the used market only for the fact that the tuners won't work anymore and the consumer will say the heck with this. Me, here in Canada, kinda looking forward in seeing what kind of deals I'll be able to get.
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gshelley61 and orsetto covered the reasons for this quite well. Some additional misc. comments:
Originally Posted by usually_quiet
Originally Posted by mpack
Originally Posted by mpackWhen in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- with over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this quintessentially American art form.
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Originally Posted by Seeker47
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Product advertising is virtually inescapable here, but we learn to put up with the annoyance if we want to be entertained. If I go to a movie theater, there is product advertising before the movie starts too, and I don't mean coming attractions. I remember seeing some product advertising in video rentals too, though not recently.
Fighting back is a somewhat futile exercise. The networks are counter-attacking. Some advertising for programming, network websites, related theatrical releases, and DVD's are overlayed on programming itself now, where it can't be avoided, unless one waits for the DVD version to come out.
The US also has a public broadcasting system, but it comes nowhere near to exerting as much influence over the industry as a whole as the BBC does in the UK. A significant percentage of our citizens want to eliminate all government support for it. The reasoning is that cable and satellite service includes plenty of commercially produced cultural and educational programming now, so why should the government subsidize it anymore. PBS is gradually privatizing as funding is cut.
As was mentioned earlier, instead of commercials, they run pledge drives every few months, where they show "festival" programming and interrupt it for 7-10 minutes at a time to ask for contributions. This takes up about 30 minutes in a 2-hour period. In the course of giving premiums away as rewards for contibuting, pledge breaks promote DVD's, audio recordings, books, and live performances featuring the personalities appearing in the programming being shown.
Even when they don't have a pledge drive running, they recognize corporations that underwrite programming at the beginning and end of shows they sponsor. They thank underwriting charitable foundations and the membership as a whole too, but the clips shown to recognize corporate sponsorship can be commercials.
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Originally Posted by orsetto
Tivo2go was great when I had tivo for a year. However I was wifiing it to my computer so transfer times were SLOW and you had to strip the protection if you didn't want to pay for their special products. Also for the analog model the best you could hope for was half d1 dvd spec at medium quality since full quality mode was actually 480x480 svcd mode. That meant reencoding for dvds. It was better to take the half d1 at lesser overall quality so you could simply plop in the stripped file and author without more reencoding nightmares.
I am intrigued by all the recording off dvr via firewire for hd programming. I just wish it was a little farther along. I'd love for the cable companies to make a usb harddrive for expansion recording like the tivo did for the analog model with western digital. Though I'm sure it would be encrypted so much you'd think it was Fort Nox! (spelling??).Donatello - The Shredder? Michelangelo - Maybe all that hardware is for making coleslaw?
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People understood the technology better, but unfortunatly many still had trouble using VCR's, especially the earlier ones with no remote controls and no menus. Some of the later ones were also inconvenient to use due to bad design decisions.
I only have the VCR I use now because two remote control buttons had to be pressed at the same time to complete timer set-up or begin recording from the channel currently tuned. The previous owner found that difficult to remember to do as well as physically difficult to do.
Let's not forget that magnetic media was popular for a lot longer than recordable DVD media has been available for an affordable price, so people had plenty of time to become comfortable with it.
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What we take for granted these days was a huge thing back then. Before VHS you watched what was on TV at the time and sat through the commercials. Being able to record something and watch it later, even FF through commercials, was unbelievable at the time. DVD didn't have the being the first to the market wow factor that VHS did. With everything available nowadays DVD is just another option in a pool of different choices one can make.
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iN THE uK, generally you either had FTA or Sky those were the only two choices. Sky is a paid for satellite service. There is a bit more competition now in that there is a viable cable operator(Virgin) and an upcoming IPTV operator (TIscali). Sky got away with charging high prices as it had disposed of earlier competition and bought up a lot of sports rights(you want football, Rugby, cricket, boxing you gotta have Sky). In the changeover to the digital the authority's are desperate to break the stranglehold of Sky. However in the Uk sky have been the leaders in producing a user friendly PVR box BUT they generally charge for the box up front (£99) AND charge extra every month (£5). the new competitors are undermining this by charging only a low one-off fee for their PVR (tiscali £50, no ongoing charge). Sky also lead the pack in bringing HD programming, however even this will be coming to both free satellite services(now) and digital FTA(b4 crimble).
Everyone in the Uk has to have a Tv licence (£130, then to have sky installed £150 then to get min two mix £17 per month, then to get multi room +£10 per extra room per month, then to get premium sports channels (£20 pm, premium movies £16 pm) to get this in HD add 50% to all prices, except the Tv licence.Corned beef is now made to a higher standard than at any time in history.
The electronic components of the power part adopted a lot of Rubycons.
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Originally Posted by yoda313Don't sweat the petty things, just pet the sweaty things.
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Originally Posted by Electrox3d
Originally Posted by yoda313
Originally Posted by yoda313When in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- with over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this quintessentially American art form.
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Commercials integrated into the show are nothing new. I watched a couple of Burns and Allen shows recently. 1st show and one called Gracies Tax ....
They both integrated the commercial into the show same with the Jack Benny 40 Episode DVD pack for $5 I bought from Walmart recently. The Show leads right into and back out of the Lucky Strike commercials.
I fell like getting some Carnation condensed milk for my cerial and LSMFT, Oh My Gosh it rubbed off on me.
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Originally Posted by handyguy
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Originally Posted by MJPollard
Maybe other models have poor interfaces, I don't know, but it isn't a requirement of the technology!
And the bit about just being able to stick a tape into a VCR and hit "record"! Maybe on another planet where everyone had blank tapes handy that would be true, but IME VCRs were all about effing brother taping over your favourite show, trying to find the spot on the tape where that half hour show was recorded, searching for a blank or unwanted section of tape on the tapes you already have, so missing the start of the show you wanted to record - and so on. DVD recorders fix all of those issues, HDD recorders are even better.
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The half-hour programs that I record run 22-23 minutes, minus commercials while hour shows run something like 44-45 minutes. I don't record many movies so I can't say what is true in that case.
Somebody's memories of the videotape era are a little rosier than mine. Initially one had to buy either Betamax or VHS formats, depending on the VCR one had purchased. Not all brands of VHS tape were the same. Some were pretty bad and didn't record many times before becoming useless. Eventually the market matured. Betamax went away, and the poorest performers were eliminated from the field, but it took a while. Prices haven't changed much over the years, but then the dollar used to be worth more
Recording on DVD's is either cheaper or no more expensive than VHS for me, but I know what brands of -RW discs to buy and where to buy them for a reasonable price. I pay $1 or less per disc for a good -RW disc. No these are not available at any store, but I do buy exclusively from brick-and-mortar stores and wait for sales. I do the same with video tapes.
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Originally Posted by mpack
If we're talking about one of the "Prosumer" VCRs, your comments are even more valid.
The ease-of-learning / ease-of-use with the Pioneer DVDRs (for the more basic things, at the very least) were pretty hard to beat, I'd say.When in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- with over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this quintessentially American art form.
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Originally Posted by Seeker47
The "blinking 12:00" argument is so old its got hair on it. The people who never learned to set their clocks or timers weren't stupid, they just didn't give a crap. The VCR was primarily a playback device for rental tapes and very occasionally they recorded something live by popping a tape in and pressing the record button. The Beta/VHS war was no more retarded than the BluRay/HDDVD war, and might I add was also stupidly incited by Sony when they refused to accommodate RCAs licensing requests: if they had, we'd all have been using Betamaxes. The early adopters shook out the lousy blank tape suppliers within a couple years, and whether Beta or VHS it still worked exactly like an audio cassette so everyone intuitively knew how to operate the hardware for basic record/playback. To carp about how complicated the fancy "prosumer" units were to operate is beside the point: we're the only fools who bought that stuff, and we knew what we were letting ourselves in for. By 1982 all the total crap blank tape suppliers like Ampex had been driven from the market, leaving "average" and "very good" as the only options. If you stuck to a name brand like TDK, Maxell, Fuji, BASF, Sony or Scotch you were fine. ALL blanks were compatible with ALL recorders and ALL recorded tapes would play on ALL vcrs from 1978 to 2008, with an occasional tracking issue or physically mangled tape getting in the way. All blanks were of EXACTLY the same material as all pre-recorded media, and the system used exactly the same process for recording and playback. If you recorded a tape and saw that it played back properly, you could then store it on a shelf in your basement, come back 20 years later and it would still play on a VCR you bought the day before.
The audio/video quality may have been dubious at best, but this was a PARADISE compared to todays digital hell, with untrustworthy brand name media, five different recordable disc types and two recording formats, "finalizing", and even the most flawless burned disc being technically "not up to DVD spec" and thus incompatible with many devices. Add the fact the blank media formulas get changed every six months at whim, needlessly stranding thousands of perfectly good recorders with no compatible discs to record on. Then, cross your fingers and carry a rabbits foot, praying every day your DVD burn was "solid" enough to withstand possible degradation from the poorly manufactured blank its trapped in.
I'm not saying I want to go back: DVD captures far more detail off air than VHS ever could, I *love* being able to "pre-edit" on my Pioneer's hard drive with no generational loss, blanks are a fraction of the cost, and the storage space for a large collection is a twentieth of that required for VHS. But I, and the rest of you, are a minority. Most people buy a DVD recorder only to swear "WTF???" and end up using it as an expensive player, or worse yet returning it to the store (anyone check Pioneer's stock price lately? there's a special staff at CostCo just to handle Pioneer returns, never mind other recorder brands). Progress sometimes skips a generation- I hope I live long enough to see terabyte thumb drives take over everything. They would be totally standardized, no moving parts, and have many of the best usability features of old analog tape. Though I'm afraid everyone under thirty is more interested in a worldwide server downloading all content for temporary use: no physical media need apply.
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Originally Posted by mpack
orsetto: Thank you! You understand where I'm coming from. Like you, I would certainly never go back to VHS, but as you said (very eloquently), you and I and the rest of us here are the minority. The "blinking 12:00" majority has embraced DVD as a playback technology, but when it comes to recording, they're going to stick with VHS until something just as easy, standardized, and dead simple to use comes along.Don't sweat the petty things, just pet the sweaty things.
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Have to Disagree about the quality of Blank Vhs tapes.. they have got steadily worse and worse over the years.. the ones you buy now have very loose tolerances, weigh about a quarter of an older tape and last about as long as a half pint of bitter in front of a thirsty Oliver Reed! :P
Pvrs are very simple to use.. its just archiving to Dvd's thats complicated.Corned beef is now made to a higher standard than at any time in history.
The electronic components of the power part adopted a lot of Rubycons.
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Originally Posted by RabidDogDon't sweat the petty things, just pet the sweaty things.
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Originally Posted by MJPollard
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Originally Posted by usually_quiet
You have to think like the average consumer. Perhaps the next consumer recording technology (whatever it is) will learn from the lessons of DVD recorders, and they'll be as easy as a VCR for John and Mary Average to use. Meanwhile, Skippy Average, the techno-geek like us, will be finding ways to crack the DRM in them.Don't sweat the petty things, just pet the sweaty things.
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Recent "flimsy" blank videotape quality is WAY better than some of the total garbage that came out between 1978 and 1982. There were 3 or 4 brands so bad they would actually damage your VCR five minutes after loading them. The most glaring example was Ampex, who as professional suppliers and the *inventor* of videotape should have known better. Disgusting stuff- new out of the box it would deposit tons of crud on your tape heads, and as it warmed up in the recorder it would actually stink the house up so bad you had to open a window. Yecch. The top tape brands moved to lighter shells to meet a price point, and tape itself got thinner as old clunky VCRs were replaced worldwide by new ones that handled T160 as well as T120. As sales of T160 skyrocketed, it became inefficient and pointless to mfr two tape thicknesses, so they began loading T160 tape stock into all the T120s (if you wanted to pay for it, "pro" T120s were still available thicker.) These were just as reliable as the older tapes and sometimes had improved coatings. Contrast that to todays digital, where one megalomaniacal mfr is OEMing 70% of the blank DVD media out there, and doing a damn lousy job of it. With VHS, unless you were a total cheapskate idiot buying 99 cent tapes at the dollar store, there was always at least one good quality brand at every retailer. With digital, all bets are off on the brands: even Verbatim is slipping now and forget every other famous name, they're all junk. Imagine if the only reliable VHS blank in 1988 was made by TY and you could only order it by credit card thru an 800 phone hotline? Please.
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Originally Posted by orsetto
In fact IMO it's a generational issue. Parents found setting up the VCR a problem, their kids found it easy. The same would be true with DVDRs - and as with tape, problems with the media would sort themselves out in a few years, if the technology stuck around for long enough.
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