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  1. Member
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    I have a panasonic dmc-tz5 digital camera which takes video in the mov (mpeg2) format (720, 30p, 25mbps rate).

    I've been toying around with Pinnacle 12 and Sony Vegas Pro 8 (and DVD Architect v5.0 as well)..

    At this point i wanted to ask around to see if i'm doing this correctly..

    I dont have a bluray burner (yet).. so for now i figured i could probably fit 50 minutes or more on a dual layer DVD and also leave the folder structure on my raid5 harddrive system for now as well.

    What i ran into was this:

    In Pinnacle, i tried either the "bluray disc" option or the avchd option, tried both bd image type and avc image type.. no matter what i did, the video was a bit herky jerky with Pinnacle. Setting the type to avchd and 2 channel dolby digital in pinnacle says that it will be able to fit 65 minutes (at 17,000 kbits/sec). I think this is the same bit rate (but maybe 1920.. i'm not sure what resolution Pinnacle is outputting, is there a tool to tell?) that i was getting with my good results from Sony Vegas Pro (but pro only let you go to 1440x1080 @60 interlaced).

    In Sony Vegas Pro, as i just stated, things were much smoother.. i used the avchd option and the max it has currently at 1440x1080@60i.. Smooth as the original.

    Finally, I've tried sony dvd architect 5.0.. the results are very similar.. i've set the resolution to 1920x1080@60i and i think (think) its smooth.. i'm not sure if 60i is the right setting.. it sounds logical though. Architect lets you adjust the bit rate, but i couldnt see a huge difference between 16 and 25 (should i just stick with 16?).. most camcorders are around 15mbps (canon hf100).

    So in summary..

    Any thoughts on the 60i setting option in Vegas or Architect with my original 30p.. any thoughts on what the resultion Pinnacle is using or how to make Pinnacle less jittery.. Should i just stick with 16 for the bitrate (i dont think ill be able to fit 65 minutes on a disc otherwise).

    Thanks in advance
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  2. Member PuzZLeR's Avatar
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    Trying not to sound facetious or anything, but - maybe Pinnacle is a bad product?

    As for the 60i, you may want to check the upper left corner of this site for "WHAT IS" and underneath is "Blu-ray". It mentions 59.94i as standard.

    As for the bitrate, both 16 or 25 are valid for a blu-ray compliant stream, but you may be pushing it with AVCHD at 25, which is a "lesser" standard. However, AVCHD was really built for cameras' "lesser" specs I believe, but if preparing for the players themselves only, it shouldn't be a problem.
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    Originally Posted by PuzZLeR
    Trying not to sound facetious or anything, but - maybe Pinnacle is a bad product?

    As for the 60i, you may want to check the upper left corner of this site for "WHAT IS" and underneath is "Blu-ray". It mentions 59.94i as standard.

    As for the bitrate, both 16 or 25 are valid for a blu-ray compliant stream, but you may be pushing it with AVCHD at 25, which is a "lesser" standard. However, AVCHD was really built for cameras' "lesser" specs I believe, but if preparing for the players themselves only, it shouldn't be a problem.
    Well.. with these packages 60i is the only option (other than 24p or 50i etc).. its probably just a rounding thing..

    I dont think Pinnacle 12 is that bad of a product, at least with non Hidef content..

    Also.. for 1 minute of video to render.. on a 1.86ghz dual core it takes 27 minutes with DVD architect and 15 minutes with Sony Vegas.. (about half this time on a quad core 2.4).. does this sound right.. ie: 27 hours on that dual core for 1 hour of video to render?
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  4. Member PuzZLeR's Avatar
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    I dont think Pinnacle 12 is that bad of a product, at least with non Hidef content..
    I admit I am basing it on my experiences which weren't very good, which makes me even more averse to any HD content with it. Sorry I can't help you here.
    Well.. with these packages 60i is the only option (other than 24p or 50i etc).. its probably just a rounding thing..
    Yes it's a lazy, and sometimes ignorant, shorthand notation for 59.94i and creates confusion. I should have clarified that 60i "means" 60 fields which "means" 59.94i which "means" 29.97 frames per second, which can also "mean" it can be pulled down to 23.976 frames per second interlaced or progressive at 29.97 frames per second (depending on the resolution and playback device). If you want to make sure you can use a tool like MediaInfo to verify (for fps, bitrate, resolution, etc.).

    (BTW - In PAL it's a bit easier, and less misleading: 50i "means" 50 fields, which "means" 25 frames per second.)
    Also.. for 1 minute of video to render.. on a 1.86ghz dual core it takes 27 minutes with DVD architect and 15 minutes with Sony Vegas.. (about half this time on a quad core 2.4).. does this sound right.. ie: 27 hours on that dual core for 1 hour of video to render?
    Depends, MPEG-2 or AVC and what rez (resolution)? AVC/H.264 produces the nicer smaller files but takes about 10x as long in encoding times. As well, the higher the resolution, the more proportionally the encoding times will increase for the extra pixels. For example:

    720x480 will encode at H hours.
    1920x1080 will encode at 6xH hours because it has 6 times more pixels.

    This is assuming the same settings, filters and even same FPS.

    For your 1.86GHz machine I would say you are on par for HD MPEG-2 content at 27 minutes and Sony is probably giving you a faster, but weaker encode at 15, but again, that depends on your rez and what features the encoder is using. I have an older 1.5GHz machine that takes up to 5 mins for every 1 min of MPEG-2 at SD rez. This speed increases over 5x for my 2-core machine for the same app. So my numbers are a bit different from yours. Hopefully it gives you an idea though.

    At this point in time, I don't think we have an ideal consumer level solution for blu-ray encoding/blu-ray authoring solution just yet anyway, and if you're trying to encode and fit BD video onto a DvD, there is no good bitrate except what looks good to you with your own eyes. I would just stick with the Sony products if they play well on your BD player for now, or just simply archive source on the RAID till products get better since you'll be spending alot of time on it now (especially if you'll be encoding to AVC to compress down to DvD) only to want to redo things when products get better soon (or for when you get your BD burner).
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    I tried the sony vegas mpeg option at one point, but i found the quality to be lacking.. i guess it will be the price i pay for quality.. ie: taking 54 hours for 2 hours of video (lol)..

    I guess i could drop the avchd down to 1440x1080 perhaps? My original video is 720.. so i was trying to match resultion (double it to 1080).. i did some comparisons at least on a 19" 4:3 monitor and i dont think i saw a big difference between 1440x1080 and 1920? (of course on my 61" tv this may be different?)

    I could save a little time there.

    It sucks to have to "hold onto" those original mov files.. i was hoping to just spit this to a bluray image and be done, eventually putting that on a bluray disc (i think i may not end up doing the dvdDL option after all.. ill just make a 25GB max size image, however many hours that gives me, and keep it on the 4 drive raid5 array and permanently there once i get the bluray burner as a "backup")..

    **Also.. it appears that DVD architect doesnt really allow any editing, so i have to rely on vegas for that.. then.. export that whole edited set to another mov file when done (another 30 minutes or so on the pc, not reencoding obviously).. then take that mov file and add it to dvd architect 5.0.. i could be wrong, but this seems to be the case.
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  6. Member PuzZLeR's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by markm75
    I tried the sony vegas mpeg option at one point, but i found the quality to be lacking.. i guess it will be the price i pay for quality.. ie: taking 54 hours for 2 hours of video (lol)..
    Today's computers are just not up to par with encoding speeds, especially for HD content and especially with AVC. I'm personally waiting till I buy an 8 core machine before I do some serious AVC HD blu-ray encoding.
    I guess i could drop the avchd down to 1440x1080 perhaps? My original video is 720.. so i was trying to match resultion (double it to 1080).. i did some comparisons at least on a 19" 4:3 monitor and i dont think i saw a big difference between 1440x1080 and 1920? (of course on my 61" tv this may be different?)

    I could save a little time there.
    If your source is 720, you wouldn't really benefit much with enlarging it regardless of the size of the TV. If it was the other way around, downsizing a 1080 to 720, yes there would be a difference on a larger TV.

    Yes, the smaller the rez, the shorter the encoding time and the smaller the necessary storage for it. But why would you want to re-encode content though if it's not necessary? If you test to see if it works on a blu-ray player as is by remuxing it to M2TS you could save tons of time and quality this way.
    It sucks to have to "hold onto" those original mov files.. i was hoping to just spit this to a bluray image and be done, eventually putting that on a bluray disc (i think i may not end up doing the dvdDL option after all.. ill just make a 25GB max size image, however many hours that gives me, and keep it on the 4 drive raid5 array and permanently there once i get the bluray burner as a "backup")..
    It does suck, I agree. But many of us right now are being patient knowing the market will soon provide us with better solutions. It's still relatively new right now. Not sure of your budget, but you could in the meantime still buy a blu-ray burner and back up the content on rewritable discs as data and re-author, re-encode later. In the future you will want as much of the source quality instead of archiving a compressed version today for space.
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    Some real test results on rendering to bluray images:
    Yeah, the original size is 1280 (x720).. so 1440x1080 may be just as well.. it appears though that the actual times i'm getting on my 1m10second test mov is the following (on 2.4 ghz quad core and x64 vista i have at work as a test):

    (using dvd architect as the render tool):

    AVC 1440 res at 16mbps: 10min 50sec (.exe maxed at 60% on all 4 cores, overall cpu maxed at 70%)
    **With sony vegas 8.0a, the avc 1440 test took 6min53sec at 15mbps (cpu max at 83% on exe, 100% overall), so vegas gets it done about 4 mins quicker, but there is no menu options in vegas if doing BD images;

    MPEG2: 1920 res 16mbps: 5min 19sec

    AVC 1920x1080 at 16mbps: 10min 12sec (no real difference here actually)

    It would appear, even if the mpeg2 format looked the same, i save about half the encoding time with that option (so 5 hours for 1 hour with mpeg vs 10 hours for 1 hour with AVC)


    Originally Posted by PuzZLeR
    Yes, the smaller the rez, the shorter the encoding time and the smaller the necessary storage for it. But why would you want to re-encode content though if it's not necessary? If you test to see if it works on a blu-ray player as is by remuxing it to M2TS you could save tons of time and quality this way.

    I'm not sure what you meant at the end there? I do know that i could edit the existing MOV files in Vegas Pro, then do a "render as" either mov or avc format to keep the changes, without having to keep all the original files, since it should be a one to one copy with my edits? (for my 1 minute test vid on quad core it took 6min 44seconds to do the render as mov format, so i guess it would still take 6 hours for a full 1 hour video to render my edits without any changes).

    I'm not familar with what you mean by remuxing to m2ts.. i know that when i render the iso image, the stream folder has an m2ts file in it, which i can test on the pc.. are you saying there is a faster way of getting to that point without making the full iso image? Wouldnt it take just as long to render the m2ts and the whole BD structure.

    Thanks for the help on this too btw..
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    WHAT IS BLUE RAYS?
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    I'm still a little confused on one topic..

    I'm getting the canon hf100 camcorder.. which i believe has 30p, 24p and 60i for shooting modes.. i think 60i is what most recommend..

    So for my 1080p tv set (which can do 24hz and 60hz), which output to bluray option in Sony Vegas or DVD architect would i want to use?

    Right now i only see 1920x1080, with 23.976 and 24.0 progressive or 29.970interlaced..

    I'm guessing i'd want the 29 interlaced option if shooting 60i?
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  10. Member PuzZLeR's Avatar
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    are you saying there is a faster way of getting to that point without making the full iso image?
    Yes indeed. You can use a tool like TSMuxeR or TSRemux (both free) to create the BD structure with folders and appropriate M2TS files inside.

    All you need is to input the video and audio streams and it will do it for you in minutes - it does not re-encode your video, which means no quality loss and much less time to have your BD. The tools don't check for compliancy though, but I do suggest you try this method first in a blu-ray player before anything else.

    You didn't mention what audio they're in, but if they're AC3 then you'll be fine.

    Here are a few guides. The first discusses the source in an MKV file, so in your case you'd have to demux the streams from a MOV file instead first. Personally I don't work with MOV, but MPEG Streamclip (free) can handle MOV.

    http://www.bitburners.com/articles/convert-mkv-files-to-blu-ray-or-avchd-for-playstati...-tsmuxer/4019/

    https://forum.videohelp.com/topic346069.html

    Unfortunately, if you wish to edit that's a different story. AFAIK, all the editors that handle blu-ray streams insist on re-encoding (and yes the mega hours of processing time which follows). This is why I'm putting such projects on hold and still waiting for an MPEG HD or AVCHD editor that will only do cuts/joins/etc and only re-encode a few frames around the edits instead of the whole file.
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    Originally Posted by PuzZLeR
    are you saying there is a faster way of getting to that point without making the full iso image?
    Yes indeed. You can use a tool like TSMuxeR or TSRemux (both free) to create the BD structure with folders and appropriate M2TS files inside.

    All you need is to input the video and audio streams and it will do it for you in minutes - it does not re-encode your video, which means no quality loss and much less time to have your BD. The tools don't check for compliancy though, but I do suggest you try this method first in a blu-ray player before anything else.

    You didn't mention what audio they're in, but if they're AC3 then you'll be fine.

    Here are a few guides. The first discusses the source in an MKV file, so in your case you'd have to demux the streams from a MOV file instead first. Personally I don't work with MOV, but MPEG Streamclip (free) can handle MOV.

    http://www.bitburners.com/articles/convert-mkv-files-to-blu-ray-or-avchd-for-playstati...-tsmuxer/4019/

    https://forum.videohelp.com/topic346069.html

    Unfortunately, if you wish to edit that's a different story. AFAIK, all the editors that handle blu-ray streams insist on re-encoding (and yes the mega hours of processing time which follows). This is why I'm putting such projects on hold and still waiting for an MPEG HD or AVCHD editor that will only do cuts/joins/etc and only re-encode a few frames around the edits instead of the whole file.
    Thanks for these tips.. this should work out ok.. especially if i just go with the standard hd camcorder and dump using the mov one.

    I will be editing though.. so i guess i'm outta luck if i want to keep those edits, even as an mts file.. ill just have to dump some cash into a really good processor (in time)

    I picked up an hf100 canon over the weekend.. its resolution and life to colors is quite a bit better than the panasonic camera.. stores everything in a BD image on the media card.. i then just pull out the mts files and can join them together as you mention or edit them and re-encode.

    Ill probably still do some mov files on the digital camera from time to time, perhaps i wont edit those and just use the software you mentioned to "Join" them together and keep the original movs or maybe reencode the final set.
    (im not sure if there is a conversion software to take the movs and turn them into mts files at a much faster rate than re-encoding the whole deal or not??)




    **So the one thing that i'm still not clear on, if i'm reencoding, producing a BD image..

    If my source is 720p 30p.. the output option i seem to have is 1080i at 60i (my set being 60hz or 24hz capable)..
    and if my source is the 1080i 60i (or 24p in the case of the new camcorder).. i'd want 1080i 60i for the output.. but what if i was shooting at 24p on the camcorder.. i'm guessing the ideal output is obviously 24p.. does all thsi sound right?
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    Originally Posted by badboyzz
    WHAT IS BLUE RAYS?
    What is another ALLCAPS post? All six of your posts are that way and you have been informed before its Just Not Done.

    If you can't learn to post correctly then how the heck can you learn what Blue Ray is?

    That being said, here is an explanation.

    Blue Rays are just below the tanning rays. Use a 30 sunblock and you won't have a problem with them. Smear your choice of sunblock all over your discs to make sure they are protected as well.

    Tanning Rays are just below the Bull-Shit rays and way below the Millikan Rays.

    Does that help?

    If it does then I made mistake.
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    I updated to Vegas 8.0b.. but i still dont have the option of 1920x1080 under either the burn to bluray or the render as dialogs.. still only 1440x1080 etc.. (i'm now fully using a canon hf10 with 1920x1080 @60i (30p);


    Custom mode allows me to initially set it to 1920, but once i choose m2ts instead of mp4 on the last tab (under render as), it reverts to 1440..

    Is there a way around this..
    Thanks
    Check out my Editing thread post located here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14322602#post14322602
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  14. Member Ethlred's Avatar
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    I don't have a video camera so all I can do is look this stuff up. However I have a vague recollection of reading the 1440x1080 anamorphic is normal for HD discs of either type.

    From the Blu-ray link in the top right hand corner of the home page of Videohelp:

    Code:
    Video frame size  	
    
    High Definition Video
    1920x1080x59.94i, 50i (16:9)
    1920x1080x24p, 23.976p (16:9)
    1440x1080x59.94i, 50i (16:9) AVC / VC-1 only
    1440x1080x24p, 23.976p (16:9) AVC / VC-1 only
    1280x720x59.94p, 50p (16:9)
    1280x720x24p, 23.976p (16:9)
    Standard Definition Video
    720x480x59.94i (4:3/16:9)
    720x576x50i (4:3/16:9)
    So my suspicion is that things are working for you the way they are supposed to.

    I looked down a bit further on that page and I see its a bit different for HD-DVD but thats dead anyway.
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    Originally Posted by Ethlred
    I don't have a video camera so all I can do is look this stuff up. However I have a vague recollection of reading the 1440x1080 anamorphic is normal for HD discs of either type.

    From the Blu-ray link in the top right hand corner of the home page of Videohelp:

    Code:
    Video frame size  	
    
    High Definition Video
    1920x1080x59.94i, 50i (16:9)
    1920x1080x24p, 23.976p (16:9)
    1440x1080x59.94i, 50i (16:9) AVC / VC-1 only
    1440x1080x24p, 23.976p (16:9) AVC / VC-1 only
    1280x720x59.94p, 50p (16:9)
    1280x720x24p, 23.976p (16:9)
    Standard Definition Video
    720x480x59.94i (4:3/16:9)
    720x576x50i (4:3/16:9)
    So my suspicion is that things are working for you the way they are supposed to.

    I looked down a bit further on that page and I see its a bit different for HD-DVD but thats dead anyway.
    Thanks for the info.. Someone had told me before that with Vegas 8.0b, i should be able to use 1920x1080 or have that mode available..

    Reason i'm troubled by all this, is the original video is 1920x1080.. i feel that if i'm changing the format to 1440x1080, i will be losing quality or distorting the image perhaps.. or maybe i'm worrying too much..

    Thanks
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    If Vegas is setting the aspect to 16x9 then it won't be distorted. If not then its a problem. As for the original video it sort of depends on the camera. If the chip is really 1920 then your losing information. If the chip is 1440 and there is an anamorphic encode then the 1920 is no more real than a digital zoom.

    I see the Panasonic was a still camera. It definitely had a big enough chip for either. Checking the Canon now.

    Flash memory. That limits the bit rate which requires compression before sending it to the chip for storage. Hence the .mov with avc compression.
    Canon 3.3 Megapixel Full HD CMOS Sensor which I suppose means it really does 1920x1080

    Canon's website
    Total Pixels
    Approx. 3.3 Megapixels
    Effective Pixels
    Movies: Approx. 2.07 Megapixels (1920x1080)
    Still image: Approx. 2.76 Megapixels (1920x1440)

    So unless there is some seriously distorted marketspeak going on here then it should do the real thing. I have yet to figure out just how the color triads correspond to actual pixels though. Are the companies calling each color a pixel or each set of RGB.
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    Originally Posted by Ethlred
    If Vegas is setting the aspect to 16x9 then it won't be distorted. If not then its a problem. As for the original video it sort of depends on the camera. If the chip is really 1920 then your losing information. If the chip is 1440 and there is an anamorphic encode then the 1920 is no more real than a digital zoom.

    I see the Panasonic was a still camera. It definitely had a big enough chip for either. Checking the Canon now.

    Flash memory. That limits the bit rate which requires compression before sending it to the chip for storage. Hence the .mov with avc compression.
    Canon 3.3 Megapixel Full HD CMOS Sensor which I suppose means it really does 1920x1080

    Canon's website
    Total Pixels
    Approx. 3.3 Megapixels
    Effective Pixels
    Movies: Approx. 2.07 Megapixels (1920x1080)
    Still image: Approx. 2.76 Megapixels (1920x1440)

    So unless there is some seriously distorted marketspeak going on here then it should do the real thing. I have yet to figure out just how the color triads correspond to actual pixels though. Are the companies calling each color a pixel or each set of RGB.
    Cool.. thanks for that info.. I guess the alternative is to use pinnacle 12.. but i had issues, at least with the mov files (720p, 30p) from the panasonic digital camera, where the motion was very herky jerky compared to using Sony Vegas..

    I guess i was hoping someone could check, if they have Vegas 8.0b and in the renderas or output to bluray, tell me me if they do in fact have an AVC 1920x1080 option, as mine just doesnt seem to be in there (botched install maybe, not sure)..

    Cheers
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    Has anyone used VirtualDub to edit m2ts files.. Does it require re-encoding like Vegas or Pinnacle? I'm thinking this may be a time saver if it doesn't.. here is a tutorial here.. not sure if its worth pursuing or not:

    http://www.jakeludington.com/camcorder/20070118_how_to_edit_avchd_m2ts_files_from_sony...mcorders.html/

    It would be nice if there was a pc app where you could edit the m2ts files, shrink things down as needed.. then have that output to another single or set of m2ts files and then create the bluray image without re-encoding everything.
    Check out my Editing thread post located here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14322602#post14322602
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    Originally Posted by markm75
    Has anyone used VirtualDub to edit m2ts files.. Does it require re-encoding like Vegas or Pinnacle? I'm thinking this may be a time saver if it doesn't.. here is a tutorial here.. not sure if its worth pursuing or not:

    http://www.jakeludington.com/camcorder/20070118_how_to_edit_avchd_m2ts_files_from_sony...mcorders.html/

    It would be nice if there was a pc app where you could edit the m2ts files, shrink things down as needed.. then have that output to another single or set of m2ts files and then create the bluray image without re-encoding everything.
    I gave this a try.. it was able to bring up the m2ts file.. but on playing it, it was interlaced and jerky.. i think i am missing a step, but if this works for simple editing (trimming).. then it would eliminate the need to re-encode, unless there were transitions and menu's in the project.. i thought i read somewhere, there may be a way to avoid re-encoding even with menu's, but i dont think i followed the steps too well...
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  20. Mov is the apple quicktime format .. so if you install quicktime pro You should hav a few more options for converting your mov files. I have the previous version of this camera and the video is pretty good.. shame about the sound. My digicam only does SD but really thats good enough..
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    Originally Posted by RabidDog
    Mov is the apple quicktime format .. so if you install quicktime pro You should hav a few more options for converting your mov files. I have the previous version of this camera and the video is pretty good.. shame about the sound. My digicam only does SD but really thats good enough..
    I am still working with those mov files, but at this point i'm trying to find an easier way to work with the m2ts files on my new camcorder (canon hf10) recently that i got..

    Sony Vegas 8.0b wont render or output to bluray image at 1920x1080 for avc.. but Sony vegas did well with the mov files.. so i was hoping to not have to use say Pinnacle 12 for the m2ts and then Sony for the mov, would rather just do all Sony Vegas and DVD Architect..

    Then, to avoid re-rendering everything, i'd rather just be able to trim down these m2ts files and burn the resultant files to Bluray.. but if i want menu's then this changes things i think (recode needed)..

    There doesnt seem to be one clear way of doing things with these avchd m2ts files at least.

    And i'm not even positve that pinnacle 12 is outputting the final product at full 1920x1080, but rather may be 1440.. i still have to use the one tool to check this.
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  22. Member
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    Originally Posted by markm75
    Originally Posted by Ethlred
    If Vegas is setting the aspect to 16x9 then it won't be distorted. If not then its a problem. As for the original video it sort of depends on the camera. If the chip is really 1920 then your losing information. If the chip is 1440 and there is an anamorphic encode then the 1920 is no more real than a digital zoom.

    I see the Panasonic was a still camera. It definitely had a big enough chip for either. Checking the Canon now.

    Flash memory. That limits the bit rate which requires compression before sending it to the chip for storage. Hence the .mov with avc compression.
    Canon 3.3 Megapixel Full HD CMOS Sensor which I suppose means it really does 1920x1080

    Canon's website
    Total Pixels
    Approx. 3.3 Megapixels
    Effective Pixels
    Movies: Approx. 2.07 Megapixels (1920x1080)
    Still image: Approx. 2.76 Megapixels (1920x1440)

    So unless there is some seriously distorted marketspeak going on here then it should do the real thing. I have yet to figure out just how the color triads correspond to actual pixels though. Are the companies calling each color a pixel or each set of RGB.
    Cool.. thanks for that info.. I guess the alternative is to use pinnacle 12.. but i had issues, at least with the mov files (720p, 30p) from the panasonic digital camera, where the motion was very herky jerky compared to using Sony Vegas..

    I guess i was hoping someone could check, if they have Vegas 8.0b and in the renderas or output to bluray, tell me me if they do in fact have an AVC 1920x1080 option, as mine just doesnt seem to be in there (botched install maybe, not sure)..

    Cheers
    Well i checked with media info and pinnacle 12's avc option is only doing 1440x1080, not the full 1920x1080 of my original m2ts file.. this sucks quite a bit.


    **its interesting as when i view the media info on the original m2ts file.. it shows the "first video stream" at 15.1mbps.. 1920x1080 at 29.970 fps.. i guess the interesting part, or maybe not so much is the 15.1 (i was expecting 17, but i guess this is just a max for the camera)
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  23. Member
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    Originally Posted by markm75
    Originally Posted by markm75
    Originally Posted by Ethlred
    If Vegas is setting the aspect to 16x9 then it won't be distorted. If not then its a problem. As for the original video it sort of depends on the camera. If the chip is really 1920 then your losing information. If the chip is 1440 and there is an anamorphic encode then the 1920 is no more real than a digital zoom.

    I see the Panasonic was a still camera. It definitely had a big enough chip for either. Checking the Canon now.

    Flash memory. That limits the bit rate which requires compression before sending it to the chip for storage. Hence the .mov with avc compression.
    Canon 3.3 Megapixel Full HD CMOS Sensor which I suppose means it really does 1920x1080

    Canon's website
    Total Pixels
    Approx. 3.3 Megapixels
    Effective Pixels
    Movies: Approx. 2.07 Megapixels (1920x1080)
    Still image: Approx. 2.76 Megapixels (1920x1440)

    So unless there is some seriously distorted marketspeak going on here then it should do the real thing. I have yet to figure out just how the color triads correspond to actual pixels though. Are the companies calling each color a pixel or each set of RGB.
    Cool.. thanks for that info.. I guess the alternative is to use pinnacle 12.. but i had issues, at least with the mov files (720p, 30p) from the panasonic digital camera, where the motion was very herky jerky compared to using Sony Vegas..

    I guess i was hoping someone could check, if they have Vegas 8.0b and in the renderas or output to bluray, tell me me if they do in fact have an AVC 1920x1080 option, as mine just doesnt seem to be in there (botched install maybe, not sure)..

    Cheers
    Well i checked with media info and pinnacle 12's avc option is only doing 1440x1080, not the full 1920x1080 of my original m2ts file.. this sucks quite a bit.


    **its interesting as when i view the media info on the original m2ts file.. it shows the "first video stream" at 15.1mbps.. 1920x1080 at 29.970 fps.. i guess the interesting part, or maybe not so much is the 15.1 (i was expecting 17, but i guess this is just a max for the camera)

    I should follow up with this:

    If you have an mts file from the camera.. rename it to m2ts.. then plop that guy into DVD Architect 5.x.. it will say it needs to recompress as the audio format isnt compliant, but if you rename it back to mts, then it says "recompress=no"..

    So if there is a way to edit the mts/m2ts files without recompressing then saving as mts again, it seems that DVD Architect will let you render the media with a menu at least, without recompression

    Total time on quad core 2.4ghz to render the iso in architect (renders audio only) is 47 seconds for a 1 minute clip

    Now if only there was a way to throw in transitions and effects without re-rendering.

    UPDATE: I tried AVCHD with the image type of AVC instead of the usual image type of avchd with Pinnacle 12.. when you do this, the resulting image is 1920x1080, however, i was able to notice some pixelation in scenes, whereas before with purely the avc codec, though at 1440x1080, there was none (none in original).

    I also tried that render as.. m2t mainconcept option in Vegas, but the resulting file had no video for some reason.. i'm not sure how to use renderas, mainconcept and get m2ts or mts as the resultant file?
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    Summary of previous messy notes:



    I have the Canon HF10...

    I have tried Vegas 8.0b, Pinnacle 12..

    So far i've found that Vegas 8.0b can handle the mts files (or m2ts if you have renamed them)..

    It DOESNT have a Sony AVC output option for the full 1920x1080. Only 1440x1080. It does have the mainconcept ability, but i had found that codec to be inferior and pixelated. You can also do the "render as" to mp4, this seems to work, but when you try to import this into DVDArchitect, architect complains and says it will have to recode the whole thing (again) as its not mpeg2 compliant for some reason.

    I think its possible to use a tool like VideoDubMod to edit the mts files and not have to recode, but i havent figured out how yet.

    In pinnacle, as mentioned, the AVCHD codec with AVCHD image type, results in a format of 1440x1080.. while the AVCHD codec with AVC BD type image, results in the full 1920x1080, but unless i had a setting wrong, the result was a little more pixelated than the original.

    **Update here, double checked that first avchd image with pinnacle, it is 1920x1080 but i swear it still has more pixelation in the one scene than the original. The bd type with mpeg2 looked better.

    I then tried the Bluray type again on the first menu, with MPEG2 on the image type.. this resulted in nearly identical quality to the original. I still saw very minor pixelation in the one scene compared to the original, but not much.. the downside is that the file size for avc was 160, for the mpeg2 it was 260.

    When editing and rendering, i've found the avg time on a quad core 2.4ghz for a 1 min clip to re-render is about 8 minutes maybe 10 depending.

    If you just import m2ts files into DVDarchitect and even have a menu, it will NOT require a recode which is nice.

    Has anyone played with Vegas more to find a "render as" option which is the full 1920x1080 in AVC type somehow and wont cause dvd architect to re-render?

    I'm also trying the other BD format codec in Pinnacle and will see if this helps.. (update: same pixelation here as well, but 1920x1080)

    Just tried Nero Vision 8.0.. it took 3 minutes to do the original m2ts file (didnt try editing it in here yet) on the quad core..

    I first tried AVCHD, but the bit rate only went to 14mbps.. i played the resultant file and noticed the same pixelation in the one scene..

    Then i tried BDisc type, custom set it to 17mbps.. the resultant file was 192mb, vs 160 for avchd, but i thought it looked really close to the original in quality.


    I'm guessing i wouldnt want to choose the "use progressive encoding" option in pinnacle, as the original canon mts file is 29.970 fps? (60i?) I know i had it set to 60i, but the file says 29.970, so i'm a bit confused on this part.. What would the file have said if it were set to 30p (30fps?), using mediainfo...
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    i should note that using dvd architect, if i take that mp4 created from the render as option in Vegas (AVC).. it of course recodes it.. seems that it will take about 20 minutes for the 1m 22s clip.. which seems silly to export (render as) once in sony, then have to do it again in DVDarchitect (of course nero didnt need to do this and it looked decent using the Bluray type disc option)..

    I'm leaning towards using Sony Vegas to edit, render as AVC mp4 when done, then use Nero8 to Bluray image type..it may be possible to trim clips in nero and not recode.. havent tried that yet.

    I'm not sure if the "bluray" type is the most compatible though, compared to AVCHD..

    The other option is to edit in Pinnacle and output to MPEG2 Bluray type there.. which is probably the same thing nero is doing.
    Check out my Editing thread post located here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14322602#post14322602
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  26. Originally Posted by markm75
    I have a panasonic dmc-tz5 digital camera which takes video in the mov (mpeg2) format (720, 30p, 25mbps rate).
    Markm,

    Thanks for taking the time to document your TZ5 .mov experience. I also purchased the TZ5 in March. Going to Hawaii in September and plan on taking lots of pictures (probably use the option for taking 3 formats , 4:3, 3:2 and 16:9) and .mov's.

    I have played a little with Ulead Video Studio 11.5 plus (which does support AVCHD and Blu-ray) down converting the 720p .mov files to standard DVD format. The PC is just a Pentium dual at 3 Ghz. I want to keep the .mov's in BD format but need a little more horse power to process. I am going to put together a new Quad PC or may wait for the new Intel 6 core chip which is due out fall/winter. I am also putting together a media server using 1 TB drives (using ICY Dock enclosure) with Raid 5 to keep all of my pictures, movies and music. The ICY Dock allows you to put 5 drives in a 3 bay 5.25 space on your PC.

    Please keep documenting your .mov experience for the best software for editing and creating your BD.
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    Originally Posted by joepic
    Originally Posted by markm75
    I have a panasonic dmc-tz5 digital camera which takes video in the mov (mpeg2) format (720, 30p, 25mbps rate).
    Markm,

    Thanks for taking the time to document your TZ5 .mov experience. I also purchased the TZ5 in March. Going to Hawaii in September and plan on taking lots of pictures (probably use the option for taking 3 formats , 4:3, 3:2 and 16:9) and .mov's.

    I have played a little with Ulead Video Studio 11.5 plus (which does support AVCHD and Blu-ray) down converting the 720p .mov files to standard DVD format. The PC is just a Pentium dual at 3 Ghz. I want to keep the .mov's in BD format but need a little more horse power to process. I am going to put together a new Quad PC or may wait for the new Intel 6 core chip which is due out fall/winter. I am also putting together a media server using 1 TB drives (using ICY Dock enclosure) with Raid 5 to keep all of my pictures, movies and music. The ICY Dock allows you to put 5 drives in a 3 bay 5.25 space on your PC.

    Please keep documenting your .mov experience for the best software for editing and creating your BD.
    I have to say, that after getting the Canon HF10, i couldnt believe the increase in quality over the movs generated by the Panasonic.. i mean, the panasonic quality wasnt horrible, maybe a bit better than my sony hi-8 camcorder.. but overall everything is very very sharp and the motion and colors of the 60i camcorder make it look like you are looking through a window.

    Nonetheless.. i do have a ton of mov files i need to get to m2ts (bluray format).. some of these were taken at the same time i took shots on the canon, so i'm still trying to find the easiest and fastest way to do this without loss of quality..

    I do have some indepth notes at this location:
    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14322602#post14322602

    I'm adding to it as i go.

    At this point, for sets of all mov files, keeping the quality, the fastest way seems to be to use Pinnacle.. paste em all in the timeline and export to BD,mpeg2 and just let the computer crank away..

    Then once thats done, if this isnt clips that go mixed in the timeline with the canon stuff.. i'd just leave it like that.. put on bluray or dvd dl.. but if it needs to be mixed in with the timeline of canon shots, well.. thats a bit of a different story..

    Right now i think ill still use pinnacle to get the format to m2ts.. for each individual mov file.. then add to architect and arrange the timeline with the canon m2ts files, but then architect will have to rerender those converted m2ts files from mov.. adding loads of time to the process.

    Ill be phasing out the panasonic mov taking shortly, except for emergency movies that i take when its the only source available.



    If there is any easier way, i'd sure like to find it...

    UPDATE:

    I should add, you can just add the mov files to dvdarchitect 5.0.. this may be alot less hassle if not editing them and just mixing them with other m2ts video files..

    Ill be updating stats on the other thread on how long this took to render.

    **What is really needed, maybe it exists... is a way to put a bunch of mov files in a timeline in a piece of software.. edit them then produce a new mov without re-rendering.. perhaps this exists? Slight update: I used Sony Vegas editor to stitch 2, 53sec mov clips back to MOV, took 10min or so on quad core.. this may be one way to take care of editing a bunch of these, though still a great deal slow.. ie: 10 hours for 2 hours of movs stitched together.

    UPDATE: I think the quickest way without noticeable loss of quality is to use Nero Vision.. DVD.. AVCHD.. export to 1080i mpg on individual mov files or edit a bunch together and back to mpg, then use DVD Architect to render the BD (the render of the BD will take some time, but the edit/export to mpg from mov is pretty quick, at least for a 110second clip in mov format)
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  28. I do have some indepth notes at this location:
    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14322602#post14322602
    EXCELLENT review!

    Reading your review on the avsfourm, it looks like Ulead Movie Factory 6 with HD pack is still an unknown?

    Did you look at TsRemux?

    Regarding the TZ5 .mov quality, for me it's a very small camera that fits into my pocket that does it all

    I used to carry multiple cameras around, no more

    It looks like we need to wait for the next generation of software to get all of the editing, no conversion options.

    Keep up the GREAT WORK

    Update:

    How about QuickTime Pro for stiching or editing .mov files?
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    Originally Posted by joepic
    I do have some indepth notes at this location:
    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14322602#post14322602
    EXCELLENT review!

    Reading your review on the avsfourm, it looks like Ulead Movie Factory 6 with HD pack is still an unknown?

    Did you look at TsRemux?

    Regarding the TZ5 .mov quality, for me it's a very small camera that fits into my pocket that does it all

    I used to carry multiple cameras around, no more

    It looks like we need to wait for the next generation of software to get all of the editing, no conversion options.

    Keep up the GREAT WORK
    Thanks

    Not sure on the ulead yet, though i thought some people said it didnt transcode without re-rendering..

    There is also Adobe Premier cs3 and Adobe encore which i will be testing shortly (for movs and m2ts's)

    Actually, that review was being updated minute by minute..

    As of now, to get movs to bluray format and ready to burn (no menus), using Vegas Pro is the quickest, test still in progress but it appears so..

    Nero 8 actually did well exporting them to mpg after editing, but then using architect if menus are needed, it would take 34 hours on a dual core to render the bluray disc..

    More to follow, keep an eye on that review post at avsforum for changes/updates

    And yeah, i do/did like the convienence of the portability of the device.. that is huge in my book
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