Windows XP D-Day arrives Monday, June 30

[SCDVD]

MJPollard, My comment had nothing to do with those with knowledgeable comments about Vista. There are plenty of legitimate criticisms to make about Vista. Those are worthwhile and also quite different from the jokers that I am talking about.

[Dv8ted2]

JohnnyMaleria, It's like a breath of fresh air to read your knowledgeable and well informed comments. It provides relief from some of the ignorant blow-hards and social mutants with Personality Deficit Disorder who have been opening their mouth and removing all doubt.

I agree completely.

[TBoneit]

The difference was that programs would run in the same memory space as the OS. If your resources were below about 80 percent, you were prone to crashing. In the NT world, programs were allowed their own memory space, so that if the program crashed, the opearating system would not blue-screen.

It is also not a good idea to use windows 98 on a cash register.

Now why would you say not a good idea to use windows 98 on a cash register?

The software will not run on any windows with the NT core such as NT3.5, NT4, Win2K, XP or Vista so the choice becomes spend big bucks for a new version that will plus a decent set of computers to access it. Cash register, inventory etc and a new server + server OS (Microsoft instead of Novell) or run win95, win98 and maybe Win ME which I never tried running the software on.

Running old windows with old software is partly tied to my belief that if it isn't broke then don't fix it.

Cheers

[Dv8ted2]

The difference was that programs would run in the same memory space as the OS. If your resources were below about 80 percent, you were prone to crashing. In the NT world, programs were allowed their own memory space, so that if the program crashed, the opearating system would not blue-screen.

It is also not a good idea to use windows 98 on a cash register.

Now why would you say not a good idea to use windows 98 on a cash register?

The software will not run on any windows with the NT core such as NT3.5, NT4, Win2K, XP or Vista so the choice becomes spend big bucks for a new version that will plus a decent set of computers to access it. Cash register, inventory etc and a new server + server OS (Microsoft instead of Novell) or run win95, win98 and maybe Win ME which I never tried running the software on.

Running old windows with old software is partly tied to my belief that if it isn't broke then don't fix it.

Cheers

You are using a known-unstable operating system that was never meant for business mission critical things such as a cash register. It was a personal operating system, not a business one.

[orsetto]

You are using a known-unstable operating system that was never meant for business mission critical things such as a cash register. It was a personal operating system, not a business one.

Just as a counterpoint to perhaps cool down this specific subtopic people are debating, I'd like to point out that many business users have indeed gotten stuck with outmoded consumer-grade versions of Windows running their mission-critical systems. Often the business owner does not realize they've been "taken" because they aren't tech-savvy enough to question these things. In my view it was/is criminal for suppliers to charge a kings ransom for custom, critical business systems and not use *at least* NT 4.0 as the basis. My own example is the atrociously overpriced, dismally unstable TeleRad PCX and voicemail system my company branch office bought a few months before I was hired in 2001. The damn thing runs on a cheesy flimsy built-in-a-garage CPU via Windows 95 (yes, 95!) and is completely unreliable. Until I was able to hire an assistant I wasted an hour a day just rebooting the stupid thing so employees could access their voicemail. Absolutely unacceptable that a business system vendor would foist Windows 95 on a client as late as 2001, if I was there at the time I would have fought it tooth and nail.

So I can well sympathize with the "Windows 98 cash register" trap TBoneIt is in. The vendors make it obscenely expensive to update these things once they stick you with them, and its even more expensive (or impossible) to hire an outside programmer to do it. That's why you sometimes see "Stockholm Syndrome" set in with those users, they defend the product because they have little other choice.

[SCDVD]

That's why you sometimes see "Stockholm Syndrome" set in with those users, they defend the product because they have little other choice.

A very appropriate analogy. A person with Stockholm Syndrome will intensely defend their captor in ways that defy external understanding. The more they are being abused, the more likely they will react this way. I realize that we are talking degrees here so Stockholm Syndrome is a bit of over-speak but it still highlights a tendency in human nature. Perhaps it's a part of a survival skill reflex. When you are stuck with something, one alternative is to accept and even defend it.

[TBoneit]

NoStockholm syndrome here. Not stuck with old junk, just frugal and a desire to avoid spending thousands of dollars. Of course I also have a philosophy of if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Many of my customers are sticking with old computers and OS's since it controls expensive equipment and there is no upgrade without replacing everything. Vendor out of business or unwilling to support 80's equipment and software. Keeps me working.

And yes I keep my own personal stuff fairly up to date. Quad core at home and dual core at work where it is needed. The quad really saves time when encoding.

Well all I can say is that the Software was custom for the entire chain. Whether or not Win98 is business grade or not. It never crashes on the cash register. That computer and the others that are booted into Win98 to use the software for inventory and billing, Boot into Win98, They then load that one software which is used until the computer is shutdown. The software may be old but it doesn't crash, it doesn't eat data or anything else flakey. It went through Y2K with no problems, Yes it is that old.

We could get the XP version from headquarters paying for it of course as we are franchised, Build up some XP computers paying for XP liceneses and so on. But it works, it is rock solid and startup and shutdown is very fast.

I'd hate to even think how old that 120Mb hard drive is. However if it dies I pull anything setup win98 with network drivers and be up and running very quickly. I had to repair it this year when the Mobo went bad. Wow, was that a old system, AT power supply and all. I had a PII 400 Mobo laying around, I pulled a used case and PS and done.

The server Died This year too. Easy fix. Change Mobo for another one, re-use the network card and boot it up, done. I think it was down a whole hour.

Yes Old stuff can be easier.

We are still fixing DOS and Win3.1x systems occasionaly. I am not going to tell them they need to buy the multi-thousand dollar S/W upgrade and then more big bucks to upgrade special cards from ISA to PCI. I have to remember to bring a bunch of 1.2 meg floppies for one customer. So I'm working on a range of computers from DOS to Vista and hardware from 486 to Quad core. That's life. Lucky I've been doing it long enough. Let the Geek Squad repair these peoples old legacy computers.

[Midzuki]

SCDVD wrote:

But I believe one of the biggest reasons is that people need to blame something else for any problem they have. It's much easier on the ego to blame something else when the problem is actually the user's own mistake or misuse.

It seems you have been reading too many self-help books lately.

[Dv8ted2]

NoStockholm syndrome here. Not stuck with old junk, just frugal and a desire to avoid spending thousands of dollars. Of course I also have a philosophy of if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Many of my customers are sticking with old computers and OS's since it controls expensive equipment and there is no upgrade without replacing everything. Vendor out of business or unwilling to support 80's equipment and software. Keeps me working.

And yes I keep my own personal stuff fairly up to date. Quad core at home and dual core at work where it is needed. The quad really saves time when encoding.

Well all I can say is that the Software was custom for the entire chain. Whether or not Win98 is business grade or not. It never crashes on the cash register. That computer and the others that are booted into Win98 to use the software for inventory and billing, Boot into Win98, They then load that one software which is used until the computer is shutdown. The software may be old but it doesn't crash, it doesn't eat data or anything else flakey. It went through Y2K with no problems, Yes it is that old.

We could get the XP version from headquarters paying for it of course as we are franchised, Build up some XP computers paying for XP liceneses and so on. But it works, it is rock solid and startup and shutdown is very fast.

I'd hate to even think how old that 120Mb hard drive is. However if it dies I pull anything setup win98 with network drivers and be up and running very quickly. I had to repair it this year when the Mobo went bad. Wow, was that a old system, AT power supply and all. I had a PII 400 Mobo laying around, I pulled a used case and PS and done.

The server Died This year too. Easy fix. Change Mobo for another one, re-use the network card and boot it up, done. I think it was down a whole hour.

Yes Old stuff can be easier.

We are still fixing DOS and Win3.1x systems occasionaly. I am not going to tell them they need to buy the multi-thousand dollar S/W upgrade and then more big bucks to upgrade special cards from ISA to PCI. I have to remember to bring a bunch of 1.2 meg floppies for one customer. So I'm working on a range of computers from DOS to Vista and hardware from 486 to Quad core. That's life. Lucky I've been doing it long enough. Let the Geek Squad repair these peoples old legacy computers.

So, you are content to put a Volkswagen engine into a Lamborghini and swear up and down that you never have problems. It must be wonderful in fantasy land. 98 is old, not meant for business, very insecure and no longer supported. Anyone could have hacked into the cash register if they wanted to and you would have been up the creek. Tell me again how wonderful your precious DOS based operating system is. I would love another laugh.

[usually_quiet]

I don't think it is likely anyone could hack into most cash registers. The communications permitted are usually highly proprietary and rather limited in nature. Internet connections aren't available. The mainframes at corporate are the usual target for hackers.

An awful lot of the equipment and software used in retailing is old. It isn't just the little guys either. Sears and JC Penny still use DOS-based register systems dating from the late 1980's and early 1990's.

[Dv8ted2]

I don't think it is likely anyone could hack into most cash registers. The communications permitted are usually highly proprietary and rather limited in nature. Internet connections aren't available. The mainframes at corporate are the usual target for hackers.

An awful lot of the equipment and software used in retailing is old. It isn't just the little guys either. Sears and JC Penny still use DOS-based register systems dating from the late 1980's and early 1990's.

I know what you mean, but my point was that a disgruntled employee could take down the register in a few minutes, because there is no security in windows 98.

[usually_quiet]

I know what you mean, but my point was that a disgruntled employee could take down the register in a few minutes, because there is no security in windows 98.

You are wrong about that as well. For example, there is no disc drive to load software. It is all done by secure communications. There is no way for an ordinary employee to access anything other than the register's usual retail software. An actual physical key and password is generally needed to run anything else. CTL-ALT-Delete is even disabled on the keyboards.

[Midzuki]

This thread is being very instructive
Thanks to all!

[Dv8ted2]

I know what you mean, but my point was that a disgruntled employee could take down the register in a few minutes, because there is no security in windows 98.

You are wrong about that as well. For example, there is no disc drive to load software. It is all done by secure communications. There is no way for an ordinary employee to access anything other than the register's usual retail software. An actual physical key and password is generally needed to run anything else. CTL-ALT-Delete is even disabled on the keyboards.

That does not mean I am wrong. You just are not thinking outside the box. Nothing is foolproof. The manager could get mugged and the manager might have picked a dictionary word password, which would be easy to guess. I am playing the role of devil's advocate.

Disclaimer: I am not condoning this line of thinking. It is my obligation as an information systems security specialist to point out that nothing is foolproof, and I try to minimize the possibility of being hacked.

[yoda313]

You to lost all credibility after that statement. 98 Second edition was unstable. If you breathed the wrong way, the operating system would fall to it's knees and take your programs with it.

Yes 98 was definitely unstable. Don't get me wrong it was beautiful on a fresh install. BUT for the few years I ran it I had to do a full reinstall every 4-6 months because it got to finnicky.

[usually_quiet]

That does not mean I am wrong. You just are not thinking outside the box. Nothing is foolproof. The manager could get mugged and the manager might have picked a dictionary word password, which would be easy to guess. I am playing the role of devil's advocate.

Disclaimer: I am not condoning this line of thinking. It is my obligation as an information systems security specialist to point out that nothing is foolproof, and I try to minimize the possibility of being hacked.

I have worked as a retail software developer, assistant manager, and salesclerk, Trust me, it is hard to compromize the software in a commercially made cash register, or achieve anything worth the effort by doing it. Most retailers use a separate device for authorizing credit cards, so there is little point in hacking the cash register for harvesting credit card numbers, which would be the only really profitable reason for doing so. However, for what it is worth, the password would not likely be a dictionary word, and the manager would not likely carry any register keys on him/her.

BTW it is not like I am giving away any inside information here. Any of the millions of people who have held a retail job and paid attention would know what little I have revealed.

[MOVIEGEEK]

BTW it is not like I am giving away any inside information here. Any of the millions of people who have held a retail job and paid attention would know what little I have revealed.

I agree,the main way into a retail database is through Wi-Fi.20/20 had a interesting piece last year where they hired a security expert to drive around shopping centers to hack into the stores computers,he was able to easily gain access to credit card numbers and transactions becasue they were using WEP protection(and other security no-no's).

[PuzZLeR]

What is it now... 2008? And XP support will be till when...2014?

Good. I got six more years.

For sure, you can remain frozen with what you have now and still run it in 6 years. You can do that anyway - irrespective of MS supporting the OS or not. But expect new software (open source, freeware and commercial) to come along that only supports Vista or later. And some of that software you will want very badly. Think what widely-used video-related software used today couldn't run on Win9x.

I agree that 6 years is a bit of sarcasm on my part. And I do see your point coming from a tech savvy enthusiast as you are. I admit partially to my proverbial "bubble".

But, I've read the posts here, and although some good points were made, I'm still going to hang on to XP. No disrespect to the Vista camp here, but I see absolutely no benefit to Vista other than the nightmare of change associated with it, which is completely unnecessary to me. This is why I bought a new machine as late as possible during the XP era to completely avoid Vista on purpose. And why not? For the first time in my life, since XP SP1, when MS finally got it together, I have everything working fluidly: cards, Internet, interfaces, burners, video, etc. Why mess with that equilibrium?

And I don't see third party support for any new offerings slowing down for XP any time soon when the base is still about 80% and the rate of decline is so much slower than any of MS's other predecessors.

In fact, lest we forget here, it's comical that MS is trying to kill it themselves when indeed XP was its savior when it looked like the Big M, the Giant, was about to fall finally in the late 90s (bad product, growing competition, endless court trials, consumer anger, etc.). No wonder they hung on to it this long. Now they're telling us to dump it for their RAM eating latest monstrosity. If we had vast amounts of resources for it fine. But we don't even now.

XP has the right roots - it was born out of a demand for quality from MS, and although not perfect, I will admit MS answered the call more or less with it and earned their survival. Now that they tightened their market hold, Vista comes out of ego, not from a need to give value. It comes out of a need to shine, and hog our machines, with their useless, and flammy, bells and whistles they want us to dance to.

And now they're gonna try and force us to change.

Screw them.

[yoda313]

You know this the same argument every time there is a new os. My computer can't run it, blah blah blah blah.

Some OS's are too powerful when they come out and require ridiculous power requiremnts. But in no time the equipment costs drop and its not a problem to hit the requirements.

Its the same thing everytime.

[PuzZLeR]

Some OS's are too powerful when they come out and require ridiculous power requiremnts. But in no time the equipment costs drop and its not a problem to hit the requirements.

Yes indeed, new OS's ride the high end of the technology curve regarding resources but the extra usefulness and value they do offer isn't justified at the beginning, which was one of my points. And particularly so with any new MS OS, which seems level with stretching the lastest resources at the time of its introduction.

Technically speaking, this is why a new OS only really becomes realistically beneficial after a few years IMO when the resource capacity curve creates reasonable space above the OS resource demand curve on the timeline.

Of course, this benefit is compounded with a service pack or two along the way.

[Midzuki]

Audio and video processing are a very valid "raison d'être" for
hardware improvement, but inefficiently-coded software or
(in)operating systems are not --- or should not be.
Just my R$1.99

Its the same thing everytime.

Correct. It seems nothing can stop the human irrationality.

[Dv8ted2]

Audio and video processing are a very valid "raison d'être" for
hardware improvement, but inefficiently-coded software or
(in)operating systems are not --- or should not be.
Just my R$1.99

Its the same thing everytime.

Correct. It seems nothing can stop the human irrationality.

It all comes down to personal preference. No one can make you like something, but there should be some sort of defense against people that do not do any research, and flog an operating system because it seems like the popular thing to do.

Common sense would dictate that if you are going to comment on something, you need to know about it,and use it, or you sound like a fool.

Repeating FUD without research serves no purpose.

[Midzuki]

Common sense would dictate that if you are going to comment on something,
you need to know about it,and use it, or you sound like a fool

That's funny! I was going to tell you exactly the same thing. :P

"No evil shall escape my sight"

I doubt that.

"Good is a point-of-view".
[Palpatine to Anakin]

[Dv8ted2]

Common sense would dictate that if you are going to comment on something,
you need to know about it,and use it, or you sound like a fool

That's funny! I was going to tell you exactly the same thing. :P

I do use Vista. :P

I have used all versions of windows from 3.1 up.

[ron spencer]

4 me I have no need for Vista...I like XP I will change when I am no longer happy. I think the crux is that if people are happy, and most are with XP, they do not like being forced for change.

let me ask this...what DO I NEED with Vista? I have no clue as I do not find my self wanting with XP Pro....anyone ????

[JohnnyMalaria]

XP has the right roots - it was born out of a demand for quality from MS, and although not perfect, I will admit MS answered the call more or less with it and earned their survival.

I don't agree. MS didn't respond to demands for quality improvements over Win9x. They didn't need to. They already had a quality line of OSes - namely NT. Win3.1, Win9.x were consumer level. They had a cheap-to-develop "kernel" that was flakey as shit, basically sitting atop DOS. NT 4.0 was something of a niche OS (even more so NT 3.5x) but the new version (Win2000 aka NT 5.0) was a different story. MS developed the NT kernel and made it PnP friendly etc. Armed with that, just a short while later, they killed the consumer line and introduced XP (NT 5.1) for business and consumer use.

And now they're gonna try and force us to change.

MS forced you to change with the introduction of XP and the final laying to rest of the non-NT consumer line. And you pay more for it.

Screw them.

So why continue to use their OS?

[JohnnyMalaria]

let me ask this...what DO I NEED with Vista? I have no clue as I do not find my self wanting with XP Pro....anyone ????

Why ask us? Only you know what you need from your computer.

Mostly likely you don't need anything - YET. But as sure as eggs are eggs, there will come a point when either you need a piece of software that only runs on Vista or some hardware.

Do you really need XP? What does it do that W2K or W9x cannot?

Some people (including myself) find that XP can run the same applications as Vista but that Vista can increase productivity. Others don't.

Everytime something new is introduced people cry "what's the point?" It usually takes the market a year or more to respond with products that can use the new version.

Cases in point:

DOS to Windows: What's the point? There's no software except Calculator etc.
Win3.1 to Win95: What's the point? There's no 32-bit software.
286 to 386: What's the point of protected mode? What the hell uses that?
486 to Pentium: What's the point? All my software runs fine on my 486.
Pentium to Pentium with MMX: Totally pointless.
MMX to SSE to SSE2 to SSE3 to SSSE3 to SSE4: Now you're just taking the piss, Intel and AMD.
32-bit to 64-bit: What's the point? No 64-bit applications out there.

The latter is probably the most important one that will hit XP users refusing to move with the times:

Though a 64-bit XP exists (x64 - derived from Server code), there's precious little 64-bit software out there. In large part, this is because x64 wasn't available as a retail product nor were 64-bit processors as affordable and abundant as they are now.

With Vista 64, the story is completely different:

Both 32- and 64-bit versions come on the same retail DVD (not for the lesser versions)
Every new PC has a 64-bit CPU
32-bit apps run natively
Hardware support with recent hardware is good
MS provide software development tools (Visual Studio) to make it very, very easy to develop software that can compiled as 32- and 64-bit versions.
The 64-bit market for Windows is now wide open and developers can create 64-bit versions of their products. But they are unlikely to do this with legacy code that can need a lot of time (money) to convert. But *new* products can be written from the ground up to be 32- and 64-bit. Being new, they will most likely harness many of the new under-the-hood technologies that Vista has (and few care to learn about).

So, it is the new 64-bit applications that will eventually pry XP die-hards from their 32-bit world into a 64-bit world available only in Vista or later.

It's a shame that Window 7 won't be only 64-bit.

[Midzuki]

Dv8ted2 wrote:

I have used all versions of windows from 3.1 up.

Therefore, I have the right to conclude that your brain has been programmed to deny
the existence of certain facts --- for example:

--- Win16 occupied more disk space than it should, and was unable to manage
the use of the R.A.M. efficiently;

--- Win32 occupied more disk space than it should, and was unable to manage
the use of the R.A.M. efficiently;

--- WinNT occupies more disk space than it should, and is unable to manage
the use of the R.A.M. efficiently;

"No evil shall escape your sight"... Are you sure of that

[ron spencer]

well for me xp networks better...and runs all my software without crashing....98x and nt never did that (driver issues with NT). So again, it seems that Vista users go there for fun really...to try something new.

Not a good enough reason for me to change....just isn't. Perhaps one day, but I suspect I will change after Vista's replacement comes out.

Just no need to......

[yoda313]

It's simple - as soon as the majority of new software is "VISTA ONLY" you will get VISTA.

There is nothing else to it.

Forced obsolecence will mandate a change. That is the nature of the computer world.

And before any mac fanatics pipe in how much of the current software runs on a five year old version of your OS? Not much huh? See it happens to EVERYONE. That is the way of the computer world.