Capturing PAL-M VHS (Brazil) on UK system. Help!

[Killer3737]

I guess the topic title is a little vague, but it's all i could think of.

Basically i have a capture card (Pinnacle MovieBoard 510-PCI) connected to my VCR (LG LV880), and i am in the UK (PAL Region).

I have been given a VHS tape to transfer to PC/DVD which was recorded from TV in Brazil. I thought it would be fine because upon quick glance Brazil is also a PAL region.

However after trying to capture it with several settings, i was not suceeding. It was either black and white or green/flickery. So i did some internet research, and found that Brazil actually uses the PAL-M system, unlike the ones used in UK and other European countries.

It is apparantly more like NTSC than PAL. PAL-M is a lower resolution (525 lines instead of 625) and a higher frame count (30 frames per second at 60Hz versus 25 frames per second at 50Hz). PAL-M grew out of NTSC as an attempt to correct the inherent color problems of NTSC. PAL-M is essentially PAL at NTSC line and frame rates. The only major difference is how the color is processed. ie: the sub-carrier frequency.

So, does anyone have any experience of this? Is there any settings i can tweak to be able to capture this properly, or is it not possible for me? My VCR plays it ok into my TV, so i'm thinking it's my capture card that is not compatible.

But if not, who can capture it? Because the person i got the tape from was in the USA (NTSC) and he said on his system the picture was also black and white and bad sound.

So this is really confusing me. What do i need to capture PAL-M tapes?

Thanks for reading and any advice you can offer,
Simon

[edDV]

...

It is apparantly more like NTSC than PAL. PAL-M is a lower resolution (525 lines instead of 625) and a higher frame count (30 frames per second at 60Hz versus 25 frames per second at 50Hz). PAL-M grew out of NTSC as an attempt to correct the inherent color problems of NTSC. PAL-M is essentially PAL at NTSC line and frame rates. The only major difference is how the color is processed. ie: the sub-carrier frequency.

So, does anyone have any experience of this? ...

While we wait for a Brazil dub expert to chime in, I can add some insight from the NTSC side of the pond. I have some background in the broadcast end of PAL-M and also have struggled with dubbing PAL-M source.

PAL-M was created to eliminate the possibility of illegal import of standard NTSC or PAL TV sets into Brazil thus protecting the local manufacturers from competition. RCA corp was a major contractor on the studio/transmitter side and helped develop the format. TV sets were manufactured inside Brazil under contract. PAL-M TV set import was taxed to the level of impossibility.

Technically, PAL-M is identical to NTSC in all respects (i.e. 525 line, 60 fields/sec, ~3.58MHz subcarrier, UV bandwidth) other than color (colour) encoding/decoding was PAL, not NTSC. RF TV channels were spaced 6MHz. identical to USA/Canada/Mexico so that NTSC broadcast equipment could be simply modified to PAL-M.

From the consumer capture products viewpoint, PAL-M has been tied to NTSC hardware/firmware/software rather than PAL to keep illegal Euro transhipment under control. For example, ATI All-In-Wonder products are divided into NTSC/PAL-M and PAL (other). I'm ignoring PAL-N (Argentina) for this discussion as off-topic*.

So from your standpoint, using the ATI AIW example, you need an Americas spec product that supports PAL-M. Other strategies require PAL-M decoding to YUV, YPbPr or YCbCr components. After decoding, component PAL-M is identical to component NTSC.

There probably are other PAL-M capture options with equipment available in the UK. Brazil dub experts will know.


* FYI PAL-N is 625/50 inside a 6MHz channel with subcarrier at 3.58MHz instead of 4.43MHz.

[ßsimian]

my capture card has settings for pal-m, it's just a cheap kworld. it might work, but i've never run across a tape i need it for.

[DB83]

I had the self-same problem a few years back.

I explored the various hardware options - standards conversion units, multi-standard VCR - but with only one tape to do (and just a few NTSC ones lying around - these were just not financially viable.

Eventually, I found a very reasonable conversion service here within the UK. And a very quick service too. I have NO commercial interest in this business - I was just a customer(used it twice in total) and would only pass on the details of this person on this basis (the web site is still active but I have no idea whether he still does this work)

If you want the details, pls PM me. (Do not want to fall foul of the mods )

[Killer3737]

Thanks for the replys, appreciate it.

my capture card has settings for pal-m, it's just a cheap kworld. it might work, but i've never run across a tape i need it for.

My Pinnacle card also has these settings, and i have tried using all of them, including obviously PAL-M and NTSC-M. None of them work and display in colour, always black and white.

So assuming my capture card is the problem and it infact needs to be captured by someone with an NTSC one, what region VCR would they need? PAL or NTSC? Because the person i got it from was in the US like i say, and when he played the tape back on his VCR, it was again Black & White?

Confused, am i.

[2Bdecided]

With one tape, I think getting someone else to do it is the best advice.

Otherwise you either need a VCR and capture card that handle PAL-M, or a VCR that converts PAL-M to NTSC and a capture card that handles NTSC. I have the latter - the method works just fine.

UK VCRs don't play NTSC or PAL-M natively - many play back NTSC as PAL-60 or NTSC 4.43 (for viewing on UK TVs - many capture cards don't cope with either), but I don't think any "normal" UK VCR will know what to do with PAL-M!

The reason your capture card can't capture the PAL-M tape a PAL-M is either because your drive doesn't match the capture card's real abilities, or (more likely) your VCR is not (and cannot) output(ing) PAL-M.

Cheers,
David.

[Killer3737]

Thanks. It's actually two tapes, i forgot to mention that, but still not a lot, no. So sending these tapes back over to someone in the USA with a VCR that can convert PAL-M to NTSC would be the best option then. Darn. That was $15 wasted getting them sent here.

How will someone in the US know if their VCR is capable of that though? The person who i got the tapes froms obviously wasn't?

Thanks.

[DB83]

Thanks. It's actually two tapes, i forgot to mention that, but still not a lot, no. So sending these tapes back over to someone in the USA with a VCR that can convert PAL-M to NTSC would be the best option then. Darn. That was $15 wasted getting them sent here.

How will someone in the US know if their VCR is capable of that though? The person who i got the tapes froms obviously wasn't?

Thanks.

No. It's NOT the best option. A standard US NTSC machine will also not output a PAL-M signal to convert to a pure NTSC signal.

Read my original reply. You are in the UK ? When I had my tapes converted, the cost was £8 per tape. A very small price if these tapes mean anything to you.

[Killer3737]

Thanks. It's actually two tapes, i forgot to mention that, but still not a lot, no. So sending these tapes back over to someone in the USA with a VCR that can convert PAL-M to NTSC would be the best option then. Darn. That was $15 wasted getting them sent here.

How will someone in the US know if their VCR is capable of that though? The person who i got the tapes froms obviously wasn't?

Thanks.

No. It's NOT the best option. A standard US NTSC machine will also not output a PAL-M signal to convert to a pure NTSC signal.

Read my original reply. You are in the UK ? When I had my tapes converted, the cost was £8 per tape. A very small price if these tapes mean anything to you.

Thanks.

The only reason i was saying about sending them back to the US was because i know lots of people worldwide who can transfer tapes to the standard i want, and would do it for free, so it would only cost me that postage again, which would probably be less than then £16 to get someone professional to do it. It's just finding someone who i know can transfer these Brazilian tapes. THey're not sentimental or anything, they're actually recordings of the 2001 Rock In Rio festival.

However if you could email me the details of that business so i can have a look at them, i'd appreciate it. simon.kilmore[at]googlemail.com

Thanks.

[DB83]

Thanks. It's actually two tapes, i forgot to mention that, but still not a lot, no. So sending these tapes back over to someone in the USA with a VCR that can convert PAL-M to NTSC would be the best option then. Darn. That was $15 wasted getting them sent here.

How will someone in the US know if their VCR is capable of that though? The person who i got the tapes froms obviously wasn't?

Thanks.

No. It's NOT the best option. A standard US NTSC machine will also not output a PAL-M signal to convert to a pure NTSC signal.

Read my original reply. You are in the UK ? When I had my tapes converted, the cost was £8 per tape. A very small price if these tapes mean anything to you.

Thanks.

The only reason i was saying about sending them back to the US was because i know lots of people worldwide who can transfer tapes to the standard i want, and would do it for free, so it would only cost me that postage again, which would probably be less than then £16 to get someone professional to do it. It's just finding someone who i know can transfer these Brazilian tapes. THey're not sentimental or anything, they're actually recordings of the 2001 Rock In Rio festival.

However if you could email me the details of that business so i can have a look at them, i'd appreciate it. simon.kilmore[at]googlemail.com

Thanks.

PM sent

[edDV]

Thanks. It's actually two tapes, i forgot to mention that, but still not a lot, no. So sending these tapes back over to someone in the USA with a VCR that can convert PAL-M to NTSC would be the best option then. Darn. That was $15 wasted getting them sent here.

How will someone in the US know if their VCR is capable of that though? The person who i got the tapes froms obviously wasn't?

Thanks.

Best place to find a PAL-M capable VCR is in Brazil or a dub house. Not all "Multi-System" VCRs will play PAL-M. That was the problem I was having trying to play PAL-M VHS demos in other than black and white. Each machine's manual should be read with care. Some multi-system VCRs may play PAL-M as NTSC. Other play PAL-M as PAL-M.

Once you have a VCR that can play PAL-M, next you need a capture device. Best bet may be a simple NTSC TV tuner card that also supports PAL-M. Unless you have a PAL-M capable TV, monitoring will still be monochrome until the PAL is decoded into components.

[epuglia]

While we wait for a Brazil dub expert to chime in, I can add some insight from the NTSC side of the pond. I have some background in the broadcast end of PAL-M and also have struggled with dubbing PAL-M source.

While I was born in Brazil and I am a computer hardware/software designer with a strong interest in signal processing, I don't think I can call myself a "Brazilian dub expert". Nevertheless, I did have experience with the Brazilian PAL-M color TV standard - I designed and built the first (and still the only one running) digital data broadcast system using the TV signal's vertical blanking interval (VBI) in Brazil, for private purposes (not for TV channel program/schedule synchronization or distribution or public teletext). Therefore, I'd like to add some comments and feedback.

PAL-M was created to eliminate the possibility of illegal import of standard NTSC or PAL TV sets into Brazil thus protecting the local manufacturers from competition. RCA corp was a major contractor on the studio/transmitter side and helped develop the format. TV sets were manufactured inside Brazil under contract. PAL-M TV set import was taxed to the level of impossibility.

Partly, but not completely true. It is true that the Brazilian market was, at the time of adoption of a color TV standard, excessively protected - but there were other reasons for the creation of the PAL-M standard.

Technically, PAL-M is identical to NTSC in all respects (i.e. 525 line, 60 fields/sec, ~3.58MHz subcarrier, UV bandwidth) other than color (colour) encoding/decoding was PAL, not NTSC. RF TV channels were spaced 6MHz. identical to USA/Canada/Mexico so that NTSC broadcast equipment could be simply modified to PAL-M.

PAL-M is not identical to NTSC: it does have a 525-line frame and 60 fields per second (as per the B/W M standard), but the color subcarrier is 3.57561149 MHz, which was enough to prevent the NTSC signal from being properly decoded by a lot of devices. Usually, at least a black/white frame (plus audio) would be correctly viewed, but in most cases the color signal would be either flickering or suppressed, depending on the ability of the color oscillator to lock onto and track the NTSC color subcarrier frequency.

As a result, for a long time it was common in Brazil to have a homemade hack installed in most TV receivers, in order to make them work with NTSC (mostly american) VCRs, cameras, etc. Basically, this was just a switch to change the color subcarrier oscillator crystal from the NTSC to the PAL-M one. Nowadays, this "hack" is directly built into most equipment.

From the consumer capture products viewpoint, PAL-M has been tied to NTSC hardware/firmware/software rather than PAL to keep illegal Euro transhipment under control. For example, ATI All-In-Wonder products are divided into NTSC/PAL-M and PAL (other). I'm ignoring PAL-N (Argentina) for this discussion as off-topic*.

Again, not completely correct. One of the most important reasons to "invent" PAL-M, or to associate the B/W M standard with PAL color transmission technology was that, in the 70s, the circuitry required to cure the chronic color instability of NTSC would make most new TV sets too expensive for the Brazilian market, and the PAL system did not need one. When the decision was taken to adopt PAL color technology, however, the frequencies had to be all redesigned because, as opposed to most (if not all) countries where PAL had been adopted, Brazil used 60 Hz power line frequency, not 50 Hz. This led to the compromise of adopting the color subcarrier frequency at 3.57561149 MHz, because this frequency was also ideal to allow optimum spectrum interlacing and filtering, as it is an integer harmonic of the horizontal line frequency (defined in Brazil at 15,734.26398 Hz). As a result, the vertical field frequency for PAL-M is also not exactly 60 Hz, but rather 59.94 Hz - nevertheless, these "inexact" vertical and horizontal sync frequencies are easily within the capture and lock ranges of their oscillators to remain properly locked.

So from your standpoint, using the ATI AIW example, you need an Americas spec product that supports PAL-M. Other strategies require PAL-M decoding to YUV, YPbPr or YCbCr components. After decoding, component PAL-M is identical to component NTSC.

Now the above statement is the clincher: if you can't properly read (decode) a PAL-M tape, there's no way you'll be able to deliver its signal converted to any other standard. So, first of all make sure you have a VCR that's able to properly decode PAL-M tapes - everything else is child's play thereafter. The only alternative is to play the same hack trick into an existing NTSC-capable VCR, namely switching the color oscillator crystal to the PAL-M frequency - provided its oscillator is good enough to remain locked to that frequency.

I hope to have added some insight from the PAL-M side of the story. Regards to all,

Elezer

[/i]

[jman98]

Killer3737 - I would never assume that a US video house knows how to handle PAL-M or any kind of PAL. Maybe, maybe not. Here's a thread about a guy from Serbia who tried to get a place in Florida to copy an old PAL Beta tape and they ended up not knowing how to deal with it.
https://forum.videohelp.com/topic358606.html
This is to just to illustrate that just because someone in the US is in the conversion business that they may not know what they are doing.

Note that it requires special VCRs in the USA to deal with PAL-M. Such multistandard VCRs are difficult to find and can only be ordered from specialty shops. They are NOT available in standard electronics stores where the general public shops.

[edDV]

Killer3737 - I would never assume that a US video house knows how to handle PAL-M or any kind of PAL. Maybe, maybe not. Here's a thread about a guy from Serbia who tried to get a place in Florida to copy an old PAL Beta tape and they ended up not knowing how to deal with it.
https://forum.videohelp.com/topic358606.html
This is to just to illustrate that just because someone in the US is in the conversion business that they may not know what they are doing.

Note that it requires special VCRs in the USA to deal with PAL-M. Such multistandard VCRs are difficult to find and can only be ordered from specialty shops. They are NOT available in standard electronics stores where the general public shops.

One must deal with a large city dub house that specializes for the broadcast news market (talk to their chief engineer) or a dub house with South American specialty. Most likely cities for the latter are Miami, New York and LA.