Limited Dvd Recorder availability

[samijubal]

I've rarely got more than 20-40 gigs used on my HDDs and I never go over SP but I do go between XP and SP. I burn the content to DVD almost as fast as I record it.

[davideck]

PQ for 720x480 at low bitrates will be worse than PQ at 352x480 on the like bitrate, and few sources warrant the higher res -- tv honestly is not one of them.

That may appear like that on paper, or may be true with some recorders (other than Pioneers), but in an actual A/B comparison, specs don't always pan out. The difference in PQ (i.e. detail) when viewing the same recordings on a high-end CRT monitor is more than obvious. The bottom line is the quality of the source material. If it is bad, then it won't make any difference one way or another.

It's not an "on paper" variable, it's an unavoidable constant. Think what you want, but denying the science does not overcome what will happen. Even perfect professional DVC material from a tripod is going to look like shit if you crunch it into a low bitrate 720x480 using a consumer DVD recorder.

The same is true of the sampling rate. 352 is insufficient for broadcast quality. On paper and in practice. There is no denying science.

[oldfart13]

Ha Ha! Just rescued a bunch of old computers from a friend and found a nice, very usable Western Digital 160 Gig HDD in one of them. Looks like that rescues me from the "no more HDD space" problem...well, for the moment anyway...

[Bix]

A lot of these awful machines that overly crunch video is why DVD recorders are becoming no more -- they killed themselves from mediocre quality. The system complexity didn't help either, which by no odd coincidence tends to be the same machines that give bad image quality (Panasonic, being the elephant in the room).

Poor picture quality resulting from inadequate bitrate and not using half-D1 killed the DVD recorder? I don't believe it. The serious hobbyist/professional may fret over getting the best possible combination of resolution and bitrate to achieve maximum PQ, but that's a tiny segment of the total market.

I'm guessing that maybe lordsmurf was referring to something that I believe he has mentioned in the past: People want to be able to fit more onto a DVD with acceptable picture quality like they could with VHS. They weren't able to get something decent past 2:00 to 2:10 on most recorders so maybe they ditched the format.

[usually_quiet]

A lot of these awful machines that overly crunch video is why DVD recorders are becoming no more -- they killed themselves from mediocre quality. The system complexity didn't help either, which by no odd coincidence tends to be the same machines that give bad image quality (Panasonic, being the elephant in the room).

Poor picture quality resulting from inadequate bitrate and not using half-D1 killed the DVD recorder? I don't believe it. The serious hobbyist/professional may fret over getting the best possible combination of resolution and bitrate to achieve maximum PQ, but that's a tiny segment of the total market.

I'm guessing that maybe lordsmurf was referring to something that I believe he has mentioned in the past: People want to be able to fit more onto a DVD with acceptable picture quality like they could with VHS. They weren't able to get something decent past 2:00 to 2:10 on most recorders so maybe they ditched the format.

I was going by what he wrote in another of his posts in this thread.

True, I missed being able to squeeze in a few extra minutes as I could with video tape, or having the equivalent of T-160 tape, but the flexible recording mode available on some recorders is close to a solution to the problem. That being said I don't think that loosing that abitlity was one of the main things that kept people from buying a DVD recorder.

[Bix]

DVRs killed DVD recorders more than anything, yes, but I do think that the desire to fit a whole movie/sporting event/whathaveyou on one piece of media in presentable quality did hurt when people were so used to VHS.

[kennywally]

" DVRs killed DVD recorders more than anything, yes,"

I'd say a conscious decision by the powers that be, designed to steer us to satellite/cable is the driving force. Had they really wanted people to have hdd dvds burners, they'd of done a better job marketing them. They're STILL available in Canada, UK and australia, they could be selling them here, but it is a manipulation IMO, more than the market being honest and the real reason.

[samijubal]

ATSC tuners played a big role in U.S. DVD recorder sales. Instead of having to add an ATSC tuner to the recorders, most manufacterers just stopped making them.

[usually_quiet]

DVRs killed DVD recorders more than anything, yes, but I do think that the desire to fit a whole movie/sporting event/whathaveyou on one piece of media in presentable quality did hurt when people were so used to VHS.

There is really not a huge difference between discs and tape in that respect. If the event went beyond a a few minutes over the VHS tape's stated capacity when recording an event/movie on a VCR, I still had to use a considerably lower quality recording mode to fit everything on one tape. Using an HDD recorder would help to avoid such problems, unless the owner neglects to delete old recordings.

...and what's wrong with using more than one tape/disc to maintain picture quality for one's personal DVD recordings, assuming circumstances permit? It amazes me that people spend so much time fussing over this when discs are so small and inexpensive. If one is running a business or making multiple copies, sure, but otherwise, there is little reason to insist on it.

[Bix]

DVRs killed DVD recorders more than anything, yes, but I do think that the desire to fit a whole movie/sporting event/whathaveyou on one piece of media in presentable quality did hurt when people were so used to VHS.

There is really not a huge difference between discs and tape in that respect. If the event went beyond a a few minutes over the VHS tape's stated capacity when recording an event/movie on a VCR, I still had to use a considerably lower quality recording mode to fit everything on one tape. Using an HDD recorder would help to avoid such problems, unless the owner neglects to delete old recordings.

Putting aside the fact that flexible/manual/incremental recording is awesome, the quality drop in the different recording modes is a lot less on VHS than it is on DVD. EP VHS is definitely inferior to SP VHS, but on DVD the drop is so much more pronounced that it may trick people into perceiving the format differently.

...and what's wrong with using more than one tape/disc to maintain picture quality for one's personal DVD recordings, assuming circumstances permit? It amazes me that people spend so much time fussing over this when discs are so small and inexpensive. If one is running a business or making multiple copies, sure, but otherwise, there is little reason to insist on it.

I have no problem with it, but a lot of people do.

[usually_quiet]

DVRs killed DVD recorders more than anything, yes, but I do think that the desire to fit a whole movie/sporting event/whathaveyou on one piece of media in presentable quality did hurt when people were so used to VHS.

There is really not a huge difference between discs and tape in that respect. If the event went beyond a a few minutes over the VHS tape's stated capacity when recording an event/movie on a VCR, I still had to use a considerably lower quality recording mode to fit everything on one tape. Using an HDD recorder would help to avoid such problems, unless the owner neglects to delete old recordings.

Putting aside the fact that flexible/manual/incremental recording is awesome, the quality drop in the different recording modes is a lot less on VHS than it is on DVD. EP VHS is definitely inferior to SP VHS, but on DVD the drop is so much more pronounced that it may trick people into perceiving the format differently.

...and what's wrong with using more than one tape/disc to maintain picture quality for one's personal DVD recordings, assuming circumstances permit? It amazes me that people spend so much time fussing over this when discs are so small and inexpensive. If one is running a business or making multiple copies, sure, but otherwise, there is little reason to insist on it.

I have no problem with it, but a lot of people do.

You and I are obviously never going to agree on this. However, may I remind you that people living in other countries, even those where blank DVDs aren't dirt cheap, still seem to be quite happy using DVD recorders, with all these perceived drawbacks in the area of picture quality and recording modes. I don't think that they are somehow less concerned with these issues than folks living in the USA.

I think ATSC tuners, inexpensive cableco DVR's, and the number of TV series readily availble on DVD, are the factors most responsible for the lack of DVD recorders in the US market. Plus, it seems like a lot of less expensive DVD recorders tended to break within a year or two, leaving dissatisfied customers.

[tac7]

PQ for 720x480 at low bitrates will be worse than PQ at 352x480 on the like bitrate, and few sources warrant the higher res -- tv honestly is not one of them.

That may appear like that on paper, or may be true with some recorders (other than Pioneers), but in an actual A/B comparison, specs don't always pan out. The difference in PQ (i.e. detail) when viewing the same recordings on a high-end CRT monitor is more than obvious. The bottom line is the quality of the source material. If it is bad, then it won't make any difference one way or another.

It's not an "on paper" variable, it's an unavoidable constant. Think what you want, but denying the science does not overcome what will happen. Even perfect professional DVC material from a tripod is going to look like shit if you crunch it into a low bitrate 720x480 using a consumer DVD recorder.

The same is true of the sampling rate. 352 is insufficient for broadcast quality. On paper and in practice. There is no denying science.

According to that same "science," copying VHS tapes at anything above EP speeds would be overkill too, however experience tells you that copies do indeed look better when recorded at SP speeds.

If you read my post, I'm not comparing 720 with 352 at something like 240 min, which would certainly be a mess. At 140 min, being close enough to 120 min / SP, even fast-moving material doesn't look much different than when recorded at SP. Going any lower obviously accentuates the resolution / bitrate ratio problem. If the Pioneer would force me to drop down to 352 with a 140 min length material, the PQ would be worse. Even my LiteOn's LSI chip can't save the day and produces an inferior picture when recording the same 140 min material at the 352 resolution.

I used to do recordings on a SVHS VCR (Sony SLV-R5) for more than 15 years, which when viewed on my Sony trinitron, gave me probably the best picture in the neighborhood. But even at a time when most of my cable channels were still uncompressed, what a disappointment it was after I first started to use DVD recorders for time shifting. Despite all the other advantages of digital recording, it took me a long time to accept the fact that picture detail has become a thing of the past. Nowadays, with heavily compressed channels, it doesn't make a difference any longer what one uses for recording. Pixelation on all SD channels is so bad now that you might as well be living back in the fifties. Some people are already seeing a similar compression trend on HD channels with their cable (or satellite) system. Add to this a long list of PQ issues concerning both, Plasma and LCD TVs, this present technology is really a giant step backwards in dire need to be resolved.

[usually_quiet]

It isn't just cable. I have been watching a fair amount of digital TV of late using an antenna. OTA SD channels display a lot of pixelation too.

[lordsmurf]

According to that same "science," copying VHS tapes at anything above EP speeds would be overkill too, however experience tells you that copies do indeed look better when recorded at SP speeds.

EP mode recordings on a pro deck on a good tape easily surpass SP recordings on a cheap deck on a consumer tape. Equipment plays a large part of what we do.

The only "on paper" issues I am readily aware of are the Nyquist ones -- something that not everybody agrees on, as the "in practice" application is very often bypassed by other methods that would be equally good both on paper and in practice.

[kennywally]

" Plus, it seems like a lot of less expensive DVD recorders tended to break within a year or two, leaving dissatisfied customers. "

REALLY? A year or 2? I bought my two in 2004... I think they sat for a year tho, but I'been using one every day, and the other was a backup, and sometimes audio recorder for the blues on FM since no one ever made a minidisc recorder with a timer interface, I resorted to that! So it looks like I got 3 years going on 4, and so far so good, but I'm still eyeballing the pioneer even tho it's an analog tuner. I'm looking for relibility and editing.

I'd love to know the avg lifespan for a panny and pioneer tho.

[usually_quiet]

" Plus, it seems like a lot of less expensive DVD recorders tended to break within a year or two, leaving dissatisfied customers. "

REALLY? A year or 2? I bought my two in 2004... I think they sat for a year tho, but I'been using one every day, and the other was a backup, and sometimes audio recorder for the blues on FM since no one ever made a minidisc recorder with a timer interface, I resorted to that! So it looks like I got 3 years going on 4, and so far so good, but I'm still eyeballing the pioneer even tho it's an analog tuner. I'm looking for relibility and editing.

I'd love to know the avg lifespan for a panny and pioneer tho.

Yes, really. I have a Panasonic DMR-ES10 purchased in 2005. A year and three months later, after the warranty expired, a capacitor in the power supply went bad. I had it repaired, and lucky for me, it has been fine ever since. However, this turned out to be a relatively common problem with that model. lordsmurf had the same thing happen to his. Who but me, and a few others in these forums bothers to have things fixed these days when they are out of warranty?

If I remember correctly, there was a JVC recorder that also had a fairly high failure rate, plus some Toshiba, Lite-On and LG models too.

[jjeff]

I'd love to know the avg lifespan for a panny and pioneer tho.

As much as I love my Panny DVDRs, unless I was able to do simple maintenance things(mostly periodic spindle cleaning) I'd say they would last 1-2 years at most with regular use. With spindle cleaning I've got several original '05 ES-30Vs that just keep on ticking.
I believe the ES-10 was a '04 or older model. The entry level '05 model was the ES-20.
Oh and forget about the '07 EZ-x7 line. I had 6 within a 8? month period and they all DIED with U99. I ended up getting all my money back but it was a terrible waste of time.
The ES series has proven much more reliable that the EZ series in my use.

[lordsmurf]

Crap hard drives (Maxtors), cheap DVD burners, and cheap capacitors are the main reason many recorders died. If you replaced these inferior parts with better components (Seagate or WD drives, Pioneer/LiteOn burners, good caps), the machines will usually last as long as any computer or VCR had.

[kennywally]

" unless I was able to do simple maintenance things(mostly periodic spindle cleaning) I'd say they would last 1-2 years at most with regular use. With spindle cleaning I've got several original '05 ES-30Vs that just keep on ticking. "

Please explain this spindle cleaning, as I am a rookie and never took one apart to look at or maintain, altho I have cleaned out a cpl vcrs, so, I'm not scared, just cautious and looking for reliable info I can use without nuking the machine in the process.

Where did you get service manuals from? [ assumed you got one to refer to ]

[samijubal]

The spindle is what the disc sits on. All optical drives need the spindle and laser cleaned somewhere down the line.

[davideck]

The only "on paper" issues I am readily aware of are the Nyquist ones -- something that not everybody agrees on, as the "in practice" application is very often bypassed by other methods that would be equally good both on paper and in practice.

Denying Nyquist does not change what will happen.

The "in practice" application is exactly as tac7 has stated. The benefit of sampling broadcast quality at 720 (with suitable bitrate) is obvious on every DVD Recorder and capture device that I have tested. Don't you see it?

[tac7]

Plus, it seems like a lot of less expensive DVD recorders tended to break within a year or two, leaving dissatisfied customers.

How true. I just put in the third burner in my Liteon 5005. The first two lasted just over a year each. Fortunately, they are easily user replaced and cost only about $35. I had three 5005s before, and replaced them all under warranty for various failures or quirks.
While I love my Pioneer DVD recorders, the Liteon 5005 can be used to copy old LPs to CD, and it does a better job transferring VHS tapes, provided they are under 124 min so I can copy them at SP. It's also immune to every form of copy protection.

[jjeff]

kennywally, samijubal is correct. The spindle is the part that the center most part of the DVD sits on. On Panasonics anyway their is a bottom rubber part that gets dirty and a harder plastic top part that doesn't seem to need much attention. When the bottom part gets caked with dust it cannot hold the DVD firmly enough and the DVD slips when the drive tries to change the rotation speed quickly. It's been my experience that if the DVD slips during writing it can lead to dire consequences. Either a disc that is unfinalizable and therefor only playable in the same brand that recorded it, or it will totally wipe out the title you were trying to record.

Panasonic DVDRs(which seem to have the biggest problem with a dirty spindle) are quite easy to take the cover off the unit and then the DVD drive. Then a little bit of cleaner(iso alcohol or tape head cleaner works fine) on a q-tip rubbed around the spindle does the trick. Note personally I'd leave the laser lens alone but if it looks particularly dirty maybe use a DRY q-tip and GENTLY rub it across the lens.
Note all my experience has been with Panasonic DVDRs. It's my understanding that Pioneers cannot be disassembled that easily, but luckily Pioneers don't seem to be so prone to a dirty spindle. One guy I was talking to was able to use a long wooden handled q-tip or maybe VCR head cleaning wand and insert it gently into the slot of the drive and use a flashlight to see the spindle.
To use this method first eject the disc tray, then unplug the machine. Then gently slide the tray in or out so you can see the spindle.

The classic signs of a dirty spindle would be grinding when writing to the disc(particularly when finalizing or editing the disc) or very slow to finalize a disc. I think many a DVDR has been thrown away because all it needed was a spindle cleaning.

[mpack]

They're STILL available in Canada, UK and australia

I can't speak for Canada or Australia, but in the UK they're not only still available from a diverse range of manufacturers (Sony, Panasonic, Phillips, LG, Toshiba, Samsung, Pioneer, etc), but the models seem to be updated every six months or so. The market isn't just hanging on, it's vibrant.

[Seeker47]

" Plus, it seems like a lot of less expensive DVD recorders tended to break within a year or two, leaving dissatisfied customers. "

REALLY? A year or 2? I bought my two in 2004... I think they sat for a year tho, but I'been using one every day, and the other was a backup, and sometimes audio recorder for the blues on FM since no one ever made a minidisc recorder with a timer interface, I resorted to that! So it looks like I got 3 years going on 4, and so far so good, but I'm still eyeballing the pioneer even tho it's an analog tuner. I'm looking for relibility and editing.

I'd love to know the avg lifespan for a panny and pioneer tho.

I guess I'm in the "anomalous" category here as well: my Pio 520 (2004 model, bought in late '04 or early '05) has been a real workhorse, and is still going strong. I've never cleaned the laser or the spindle, just wiped the tray from time to time. Non-smoking household, but this is a moderately dusty area. The gear is inside a cabinet, though, and there is good power protection ahead of it.

[usually_quiet]

Crap hard drives (Maxtors), cheap DVD burners, and cheap capacitors are the main reason many recorders died. If you replaced these inferior parts with better components (Seagate or WD drives, Pioneer/LiteOn burners, good caps), the machines will usually last as long as any computer or VCR had.

Very true, but the manufacturers should have known better and used quality parts in the first place. They cut corners too often and made the whole product category look bad.

Replacing bad caps is not expensive, but sadly, replacing drives and burners isn't always easy, or cheap. How many members of the general public are going to make the suggested repairs/upgrades or even clean the spindles?

[samijubal]

Replacing the caps may not be expensive but finding them isn't always easy. Capacitors can be bad without showing any physical signs of wear.

[Bagheera]

Replacing the caps may not be expensive but finding them isn't always easy. Capacitors can be bad without showing any physical signs of wear.

Ain't that the truth! Been there, done that.

[orsetto]

(...) the manufacturers should have known better and used quality parts in the first place. They cut corners too often and made the whole product category look bad.

Ordinarily this would be a completely accurate view, but an additional wildcard factor affected the problematic models of 2003-2005. In one of the biggest corporate espionage scandals ever to be swept under the rug and buried, Chinese conglomerates stole engineering specifications for a supposedly "better" type of capacitor mfring, but the stolen plans were flawed which resulted in China dumping millions of sup-par capacitors on the market earlier this decade. These crappy caps were unknowingly used by every consumer electronics company in the world to make their products for a couple of years, resulting in thousands of products circa 2003-2005 having greater incidence of power supply and other defects. This became really noticeable with a sudden nosedive in initial quality reports for many big-name computer brands such as Dell and Apple a few years back. Eventually the flawed caps issue became clear, and mfrs stopped using them, but the damage had already been done. That enormous batch of bad caps has long since been used up, but a lot of products still in use contain these bum parts: it will be a few more years before they're all retired and the whole unfortunate cycle finally ends.

Of course that doesn't let CE mfrs completely off the hook: many did not react quickly enough to the crisis, and quite a few failed to respond at all, figuring "the horse is already out of the barn". Cutbacks in quality control divisions meant no one was checking for flaws. And there was an appalling resistance to warranty repairs by many firms long after they became aware of the bad caps issue. Poor behavior all around.

[Seeker47]

That enormous batch of bad caps has long since been used up, but a lot of products still in use contain these bum parts: it will be a few more years before they're all retired and the whole unfortunate cycle finally ends.

Have you had to replace any caps on any of your various Pioneer decks ?

If there is not already something like this there, a good reference addition to Hkan's site would be a guide on identifying those parts, what to look for if they may have gone bad, and what they should be replaced with. Even if one is not handy with a soldering iron, it might give owners a head start, should they decide the unit is worth repairing.