Limited Dvd Recorder availability

[Bagheera]

Seeker 47 stated:

If you talk to the more knowledgeable people who have owned different makes and models, going back a few years, I think you'll find a consensus that the Pioneers and the older Toshibas were clearly the best. (Don't want to over-generalize here, because the particular model matters a lot.) Maybe not in terms of absolute best PQ, but in terms of features / accessibility, build-quality, and longevity. You can find plenty of discussion of the Panasonics and the other makes in past forum threads here.

I cannot agree more with this. I have my own reason for being partial to my Pioneer 220. However, that aside. I have seen a Toshiba that was incredible picture wise. No doubt this company makes one hell of a rock-solid unit. As for Pioneer? While I think the customer service in the United States from Pioneer is by far the worst I have ever seen from ANY company. I cannot and will not deny that they make one hell of a machine. The picture quality on my machine is incredible. (however, I admit I may be biased here) The build quality is sturdy and not MPC. (More Plastic Crap).

FulciLives Stated:

"Pioneer is better than Panny. Panny sucks."

KennyWally,

FulciLives is 100% correct in his statement, in my opinion. I have some knowledge of electronics since I used to repair TV's and VCR's years ago. I never like Pannasonic due to the cheap construction of the product. Many times I saw where they cut corners by using a cheaper part that failed. If they had spent another lousy .60 cents, they would have never failed. (RCA is especially guilty of this practice.)

When you put a part in, that is rated for 1-volt, when the schematic clearly calls for a part rated at between 2v-2.5-Volts, yeah, your a cheap-ass and trying to cut corners. This is common for "some" companies. They run out of the correct part, so they substitute whatever they have available. Many times these parts fail prematurely because they were over-volted. I'm sorry, but if your gonna build the damn thing, build it right. Or don't build the thing at all.

When I looked in my Pioneer recently for repair. And helped a friend clean his unit internally. I looked at the parts such as caps, (capacitors) etc; Guess what? They were either correct specs for voltage. Or they were rated as "higher" voltage than was actually needed. This means that they will last damn near forever, because if they installed a 3-volt part, when only 1.5 to 2-Volts was needed. Then that part is "under-volted" and will not burn up anytime soon. This is clearly superior build quality.

Samijubal Stated:

"The Toshiba HDD recorders were the best ever made."

From what I have seen recently in my friends machine. I would have to say that this is a true statement. At least for my friends machine. High build quality, and excellent picture quality for an HDD unit.


With all this said KennyWally, I think you'll understand why many of us have loyalty to certain brands. Many of these people have played around with the various units out there. And clearly, have chosen the rock-solid winners hands down. The companies that have been picked, have "earned" the respect of the community by the quality they instill in the products they sell. You don't get respect for building garbage.

After reading tons of posts here Kenny, and checking out the facts. I can safely say that I hold many of these peoples opinions in high regard. If they say something, you can damn well take it to the bank.

I hope this all helps answer your questions.

[orsetto]

Toshiba all the way. I get surprisingly good widescreen recordings with a Zenith converter box. The Toshiba HDD recorders were the best ever made.

This is a crucial advantage to the older Toshiba DVD/HDD recorders that is often overlooked: they are the only units with full manual control over setting the widescreen recording format. There are always tons of posters wondering how to make their recorders pull the anamorphic signal from their cable/satellite box, etc. The answer is almost always "no" or "its up to the whim of the recorder" or "it has to be a particular media/format". UNLESS you have a vintage Toshiba DVD/HDD unit. They are not my cup of tea, I prefer Pioneers, but if proper widescreen recording is important to you Toshiba is really the only choice.

[kennywally]

Bagheera

Thanks! And congratulations, on convincing me to look at pioneer, I'm considering the 650 or the lx70.

The latter is a bit pricey, but with my bad habit of saving everything, it may end up being the one for me.

Ghandi electronics on devon in chicago has them, I may have to swing by for a demonstration, but my funds are a bit tight, I may have to do a layaway plan...

My main concern is ease of editing and it receiving broadcast hd, the digital tv signal.

I have an old pioneer receiver 25w rms [ not sure how old,1995-2000? ], that I thought was just a cheap old thing, hell it might even outlast my pricey yamaha that lasted only 10 years. I have a new appreciation for it. I bought it simply based on affordability, I may have gotten a better bargain than I thought, providing they're consistent with their cousins in video.

[samijubal]

If you buy anything Pioneer from anywhere other than an authorized dealer you get no warranty. Just something you should know before buying.

[tac7]

Toshiba all the way. I get surprisingly good widescreen recordings with a Zenith converter box. The Toshiba HDD recorders were the best ever made.

The reason why I never personally considered a Toshiba is because of their inability to burn DVD+R discs.
The same applied to the Pioneer until the Pio 540/640 models. Once the Pioneer units accepted DVD+R and DVD+R DL discs for recording, and got rid of their problematic TVGuide, I bought a Pio 640, 550, and two 650s. I haven't found any other DVD recorder that comes even close to its overall versatility, intuitive menu, build quality, etc., - with its PQ being not tops, but close.

Some people bemoan the fact that the Pioneer maintains a 720x480 resolution down to the LP (240 min) speed, however I have recorded a lot of 30 min TV series segments, where I put 6 commercial-edited episodes on a single DVD at the MN 19 /140 min settings. With a good-quality source, the PQ is great (no pixelation), so I'm glad that I don't have to deal with a drop to 353x480 as I had to do on some other DVD recorders, which resulted in a very noticeable drop in PQ.
The only negative aspect of the Pioneers is their requirement of a special service disc and service remote when trying to repair or upgrade their units.

[lordsmurf]

PQ for 720x480 at low bitrates will be worse than PQ at 352x480 on the like bitrate, and few sources warrant the higher res -- tv honestly is not one of them.

[samijubal]

And the inability to burn + discs is a disadvantage how? I've always prefered DVD-R/RW. I'd much rather have the RAM ability than + ability.

[p_l]

They are not my cup of tea, I prefer Pioneers, but if proper widescreen recording is important to you Toshiba is really the only choice.

I'm still wondering if Pioneers (or their Sony quasi-clones, now) set the widescreen flag for a widescreen miniDV camera firewire input source, as does my Toshiba RD-XS35, but not Panasonics or Philips.

If they did, I'd consider buying a Pio 660 as a complement to my Tosh.

[tac7]

PQ for 720x480 at low bitrates will be worse than PQ at 352x480 on the like bitrate, and few sources warrant the higher res -- tv honestly is not one of them.

That may appear like that on paper, or may be true with some recorders (other than Pioneers), but in an actual A/B comparison, specs don't always pan out. The difference in PQ (i.e. detail) when viewing the same recordings on a high-end CRT monitor is more than obvious. The bottom line is the quality of the source material. If it is bad, then it won't make any difference one way or another.

[orsetto]

Bagheera

Thanks! And congratulations, on convincing me to look at pioneer, I'm considering the 650 or the lx70.

The latter is a bit pricey, but with my bad habit of saving everything, it may end up being the one for me.

Ghandi electronics on devon in chicago has them, I may have to swing by for a demonstration, but my funds are a bit tight, I may have to do a layaway plan...

My main concern is ease of editing and it receiving broadcast hd, the digital tv signal.

Neither of these "Pioneer Global" models is the best choice for a USA resident. The LX70 is outrageously overpriced, its only advantage for the cost is that it has a *European-spec* digital tuner. That tuner is useless in the states because it is for PAL only. It would be like bringing an ATSC recorder to Europe: ain't gonna work, not compatible. Unless you have money to burn on pointless features, avoid the LX70. It is also a good idea to nix the Pio 650, the only really good "global" Pioneer for USA residents is the model 550. For some reason the 650 is delivered optimized for Asian countries while the 550 is preset for English-speaking countries. Either can be a pain to reset for USA/NTSC use, but I hear many more complaints about the 650. Go with the 550.

Frankly, for what the "global" models cost and the fact that none of these has a warranty anyway, I think people are still better off buying a Canadian-version Pioneer from eBay or other web brokers. A new-in-box Canadian 550 or 560 averages $499 on eBay and is already optimized for USA operation. The "global" 550 and 650 are a royal pain to set up for USA, and require exotic workarounds for any type of advanced timer setting (unlike the Canadian units which have a normal hardware timer, the global units have a European version of TVGOS which only becomes visible in PAL mode).

No Pioneers are ATSC-ready: all will require an outboard digital tuner (or cable/satellite) next year. All of them are extremely good at editing: compared to many other makes, Pioneer's editing software is bulletproof. Finally, don't shop for these based on hard drive size alone: all Pioneers are very easily upgraded to any size hard drive you want later on, using some form of service remote and service disc as explained in other threads.

[kennywally]

orsetto,

well thanks for the additional info.

550...eh?

I might not have figured out some of that til it was too late!

Do you happen to know if pioneer plans on making one with a broadcast digital tuner?

Or can a digital tuner be added? I probably would not spend the money for that, but I'd like to know.

And you say hdd size don't matter, because the software will accomodate 500g?

And are they [ dvd hdd recorders ] all like that, can I drop a 500g in my panny, and get all 500g?


-------

ok, I just checked around;

http://www.pioneerelectronics.ca/POCEN/Products/Home+Entertainment/Blu-ray+Disc+%26+DV...+%26+Recorders

It looks like the 560 is the latest, and I didn't find anyone around the usa with one, I may have to get it shipped to me. Anyone ever try that? 399.99 ca plus shipping, maybe 50-60$

[jjeff]

I've never heard of anyone getting a larger drive to work with the Pannys and as far as the digital tuner, you'd need to add a external one such as a CECB for OTA or a Samsung 260 for ATSC and QAM.
A couple CECBs have manual timers to automatically change channels and if your DVDR has a IR blaster you can control the CECB that way. I have a Panny EH-55 and control my CM-7000 via IR blaster and it works great. I'm not sure if the international Panny has a IR blaster although I would think?? it would.
Personally I think if Canada forces mfgs. to have a digital tuner that's the time they will exit Canada, that or sell in both Canada and the US, which I doubt.

[orsetto]

Neither Pioneer or any other major brands will be selling DVD/HDD recorders with digital tuner (ATSC). All of us who prefer these versatile machines are planning workarounds with add-on digital tuners, or we just use them with cable/satellite. If you are hell-bent on an integrated ATSC tuner, the *only* options out there are the Phillips 3576/Magnavox H2160 with DVD/HDD recording. There are complications in the USA market, when it comes to digital tuners the major brands long ago decided they would only sell us DVD-only recorders: there would be no hard drive recorders with ATSC (except for the renegade Phillips/Magnavox twins). Canada will not go to ATSC for anther three years which is why Pioneer is still selling there: no requirement to upgrade their tuners yet. The new DVR-560 is very popular and kinda hard to get at the discount price of $399, most Canadian retailers sell it for over $400 and its closer to $500 from web brokers. As you can imagine, this price point doesn't fly in the USA, where we expect everything from refrigerators to automobiles to be "$99 or less".

Panasonics have firmware limiting them to a specific hard drive size, Pioneers can be expanded up to 500GB, although at a certain point you're pushing the limits of easy navigation within the recorder interface. 250GB is more than anyone can reasonably expect to manage on a standalone recorder.

[kennywally]

ok, so the tuner is out, but you say, there is a firmware drive size limitation. would that be unit specific?

I know I dowloaded and burned and installed the 16x firmware upgrade. I'm thinking somebody MUST have a hack for that drive size limitation too! no?

[samijubal]

What is with everyone's obsession with a bigger HDD? I don't get it. Just burn something to DVD, it's a lot cheaper than buying a new recorder.

[usually_quiet]

What is with everyone's obsession with a bigger HDD? I don't get it. Just burn something to DVD, it's a lot cheaper than buying a new recorder.

I would guess that a few folks record considerably more programming than they get around to watching within a reasonable length of time, or are determined to record everything using the 1-hour setting. I suppose other people are doing something that they shouldn't do -- use their hard drive as a video library.

[orsetto]

Re hard drive upgrades: yes on the Pioneers, no on Panasonic, Sony and Toshiba. There is no hack or workaround on those: you're lucky you can replace the hard drive at all. The motherboard will only recognize the size it was originally sold with. Some folks have managed to put larger drives in Pannys and Toshibas but the units only recognize the original capacity: the rest is ignored. Again, drive capacity is not the way to shop these things: past about 160GB you have diminishing returns anyway.

Its an odd fact of electronics life, but just because one type of device that uses a hard drive can be beat on, that doesn't mean *every* other device with a hard drive can be beat on the same way. The operating system in DVD recorders is simplistic and fragile and does not cope at all well with hard drive errors. So its not a good idea to have some huge drive with hundreds of shows recorded on it: sooner or later, one slight glitch will tank the drive and you'll lose everything. These drives can't be rescued, only erased and reformatted after a failure. Not to mention there's no direct access to individual recordings: all you can do is scroll up and down a title list, which gets increasingly slow and tedious the more titles you have recorded. The hard drive is for temporary storage, editing and copying- despite mfr claims, they are unsuitable as "jukeboxes" or "libraries". For that, get yourself a cable DVR.

[kennywally]

" What is with everyone's obsession with a bigger HDD? "

I can think of a few worse obsessions! lol


I'm recording a huge series of lectures, and I want to mix n match them as I see fit, hence the large storage objective.

I appreciate all the input. I'm still learning.

[samijubal]

You'd be better off using a PC, cheaper, more reliable, better editing, better menus.

[usually_quiet]

Regarding the use of a CECB as a tuner for an analog HDD Dvd recorder:The DISH DTVPal/TR40-CRA and the Zinwell ZAT-970A are the only CECBs with event timers. I think an IR blaster would likely work with a number of CECBs.

I have the DISH boxes. The event timers themselves can be set using the program guide, or manually. The clock is set automatically and there is no manual override to correct the time. If the time sent is wrong, and it frequently is, events will not take place exactly on schedule. The Zinwell has a way to enter the time and date manually, but I can't say whether or not it keeps good time without automatic updates. Neither of these boxs provides as sharp a picture as the Zenith box. The Channel Master CM-7000 has the best picture quality of all, when using S-Video out.

[Nitemare]

Let's not overlook how the cable companies helped kill DVD recorders. A friend of mine bought one but every time he tried to record anything, he got some message on his screen saying that he wasn't allowed to record because he didn't own the rights or some such nonsense. The DVR provided by the cable company (for $15/month) had no such problem.

I remember it because he essentially talked me OUT of buying one. If I can't use it to record Smallville when I'm working, then what good is it?

[kennywally]

Nitemare,

I didn't know that, the plot thickens....

I've come to accept that, I'm not part of the main herd, and I like to do things differently.

So far, no cable here. Face it, the programming is not all it could be.

I'm still holding out, and since I'm not a movie freak, I can get away with just broadcst tv.

I may also have to look into the PC based dvr....I do have an extra pc...

=========

samijubal


What software are you familiar with on the PC based dvr?

Might as well comment on the burner/hardware too! lol

[lordsmurf]

PQ for 720x480 at low bitrates will be worse than PQ at 352x480 on the like bitrate, and few sources warrant the higher res -- tv honestly is not one of them.

That may appear like that on paper, or may be true with some recorders (other than Pioneers), but in an actual A/B comparison, specs don't always pan out. The difference in PQ (i.e. detail) when viewing the same recordings on a high-end CRT monitor is more than obvious. The bottom line is the quality of the source material. If it is bad, then it won't make any difference one way or another.

It's not an "on paper" variable, it's an unavoidable constant. Think what you want, but denying the science does not overcome what will happen. Even perfect professional DVC material from a tripod is going to look like shit if you crunch it into a low bitrate 720x480 using a consumer DVD recorder. The only way to cheat bitrate, while maintaining some degree of PQ, is by using multi-pass VBR encoding.

A lot of these awful machines that overly crunch video is why DVD recorders are becoming no more -- they killed themselves from mediocre quality. The system complexity didn't help either, which by no odd coincidence tends to be the same machines that give bad image quality (Panasonic, being the elephant in the room).

[samijubal]

samijubal


What software are you familiar with on the PC based dvr?

Might as well comment on the burner/hardware too! lol

I don't record on the PC, just edit. I record RWs on a standalone then load them in the PC where I edit and make menus, then burn to DVD-R. A HDD recorder just doesn't have enough storage to record multiple TV series and get the episodes in order before burning to DVD, especially when some of the series are syndicated and aren't aired in order. Standalone recorders have problems that PCs don't as already mentioned. I'd hate to spend months recording just have a problem with the recorder and lose everything. It's pretty inexpensive these days to get a large amount of storage on a PC. The newest burner I use is a Pioneer 115, which I think can still be found. To load the RWs into the PC I use an NEC 3550, it takes about half the time the Pioneers take.

[kennywally]

samijubal

ok, what do you edit with?

and you just make menus with it?

my editing needs are mainly dividing the title, and removing any station breaks. I also record at low resolution ep.

[samijubal]

I use TMPGEnc DVD Author 1.6 for editing and menus and DVD Decrypter to burn. The version I use is an old one and can only be found on Amazon Marketplace or somewhere like that sometimes. The current version is 3. You can download a 30 day free trial, just click the link in this post.

There's this on Amazon, it should do everything my version does and more:
http://www.amazon.com/TSUNAMI-MPEG-DVD-Easypack-Suite/dp/B0009I4VEY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8...3263453&sr=1-1

[usually_quiet]

A lot of these awful machines that overly crunch video is why DVD recorders are becoming no more -- they killed themselves from mediocre quality. The system complexity didn't help either, which by no odd coincidence tends to be the same machines that give bad image quality (Panasonic, being the elephant in the room).

Poor picture quality resulting from inadequate bitrate and not using half-D1 killed the DVD recorder? I don't believe it. The serious hobbyist/professional may fret over getting the best possible combination of resolution and bitrate to achieve maximum PQ, but that's a tiny segment of the total market. Some of the general public apparently still uses a VCR for time-shifting, and finds VHS picture quality to be good enough.

The increasing amount of HD programming and the limitation of the DVD format to SD may be becoming more of a factor, though. If the general consumer market is starting to demand the ability to record in HD, then an HD DVR is the only solution available. By the time Blu-Ray recorders are sold here, they may not be very useful to us anyway, since our content providers seem intent on restricting our ability to record HD programming in HD.

[oldfart13]

3 160Gig HDDs maxed out for my Daytek 950-S recorders means I have to do some quick editing to get some space back or else buy another drive and drop it in. Unfortunately, it only takes 2 - 3 weeks for me to fill up another 160 - 250 Gig drive. My programming is a mix:

HQ (1 hour) for single shows I record for me
SP (2 hour) for shows on back-to-back in a specific slot I record for friends
LP (3 hour) for sports

I never though that I would be recording as much stuff as I do when I got my latest recorders. I'm glad they were HDD ones...

[robjv1]

Yeah, it's scary how fast one can fill up a HD with even "only DVD quality stuff". I have probably 1.5 TB worth of stuff (and none of these are commercial movies) and I'm running out of space. Pretty soon I will need to bring my backup drive into the fold and get a new backup drive.

[vhelp]

It looks to me that the option for DVR-ing anyting HD-wise will be downsampling to the SD dvd 720x480 because most dvd players will play them fine on a bigger screen. The question will be how will they make their dvd player upsample properly or satisfactory for the future of DVR. If all it takes is to design a well upsampler then it seems that this could be the next wave of the future -- you can have your HD size anything tv but if you press the RECORD button, you will get a downsampled 720x480, bla bla.

-vhelp 4912