WHAT?? Another new format?? Toshiba unveils another Blu-ray 'Killer'

[akrako1]

http://www.pcauthority.com.au/News/112880,toshiba-unveils-another-bluray-killer-millio...s-ask-why.aspx

Toshiba unveils another Blu-ray 'killer', millions ask why

by Simon Burns
Jun 2, 2008

Unconfirmed rumours claim a High-res upgrade for existing DVD technology is in the works, making us wonder if Toshiba has swallowed stupid pills..
Toshiba is working on an extension to the DVD format which will offer video quality comparable to that produced by Blu-ray and HD-DVD discs, according to Japanese media reports.

The company plans to begin selling a DVD player based on the new technology within six months, Japanese daily Yomiuri Shimbun reported yesterday citing unnamed sources at Toshiba.

The new enhanced DVD players will be sold at lower prices than Blu-ray players, according to the sources.

Toshiba ceded to the rival Blu-ray format in February 2008 after spending years developing its own HD-DVD next-generation video disc standard.

HD-DVD was backed by a consortium of companies including Microsoft and Intel, while Sony is the lead developer of Blu-ray.

The new DVD player will be backwards-compatible with standard DVD discs, according to the sources.

One Japanese report appeared to suggest that the new technology would be able produce much higher-resolution images from existing DVDs, but did not address the apparent impossibility of this claim.

The modified DVD format relies on a newly-developed large scale integrated circuit chip to rapidly convert the stored video, but no technical details were released.

Manufacturers have attempted to extend the lifespan of existing storage technologies by adding additional data which can be used by new players but ignored by older players.

For example, hybrid Super Audio CDs (SACDs) can be played in traditional CD players but produce higher quality audio when played in special players. However, SACDs have failed to meet sales targets.

I'm guessing it'll be some flavor of Mpeg-4 on DVD-9's....

[zoobie]

unconfirmed?
it looks like the april fools joke...

[Scooter_NJ]

Source?

[thecoalman]

It's all over google news, didn't see anything confirmed though...

Read few articles and I'll tell you what after considering it this is not that crazy an idea. I've seen some pretty good scaled images. I've also seen some pretty good images from video where they took information from multiple frames to form a composite frame.

Truthfully this would certainly put a damper on Sony's market if they did pull it off because everyone already has the media bought and paid for.

It's not as if people have dove head first into this format and there is lot of players out there to drive demand. Going to be very interesting to see where this goes if its true

[redwudz]

I'm still waiting for a high capacity optical disc that doesn't have DRM crap and will let me record anything I want in any format I want. (For computer playback mostly.) I don't even care if it's high def. A 25GB H.264 disc would be nice.

[Xylob the Destroyer]

...One Japanese report appeared to suggest that the new technology would be able produce much higher-resolution images from existing DVDs, but did not address the apparent impossibility of this claim...

For those of you interested in such things, I can sell you the formula for turning lead into gold for a moderate fee.

[akrako1]

...One Japanese report appeared to suggest that the new technology would be able produce much higher-resolution images from existing DVDs, but did not address the apparent impossibility of this claim...

For those of you interested in such things, I can sell you the formula for turning lead into gold for a moderate fee.

This isn't "impossible". Using newer, more efficient compression codecs allows you to fit 2hrs of HD content on a DVD9.

[Scooter_NJ]

Combine that with a built in line quadrupler type of proccess....it is quite possible.

I am not surprised if this is Tosh firing back.

[thecoalman]

This isn't "impossible". Using newer, more efficient compression codecs allows you to fit 2hrs of HD content on a DVD9.

Well if I don't think thats going to sell anything however if they can turn standard DVD's everyone already owns into much better DVD's then they may have a winner. Even if its just a minor increase, DVD looks pretty good on large screen now. Sharpen it up some and if they have a filter for combining details from multiple frames they could produce a much better product. Certainly not going to be as goos as real hi-def but half the people could care less now about hi-def. And yes I'm well aware the bullshit on CSI is in fact bullshit however there are some pretty good examples of scaling images and video around with some pretty good results.

Here's some samples with digital images: http://actions.home.att.net/dSLR_Fractal_Sharpen.html

[mohnitor]

I´m only watching films on my cellphone...

[rumplestiltskin]

For those of you interested in such things, I can sell you the formula for turning lead into gold for a moderate fee.

Funny; I thought that's what BluRay is.

[cracula]

It would be a nice little side bonus if we can experience it on hd dvd players.

[DarrellS]

One Japanese report appeared to suggest that the new technology would be able produce much higher-resolution images from existing DVDs, but did not address the apparent impossibility of this claim.

What impossibility? You can already fit three to four times as much data on a DVD with DivX, XviD and H264 than you can with MPEG2. If they would've produced a low cost player to play all these formats in HD in the first place instead of getting into a format war with Sony, we'd all be better off (and they wouldn't have lost billions of dollars). The rich people could still have their expensive Bluray to play on their $10,000 TVs and the rest of us could have cheap multi format DVD players and still be able to use the DVD burners that we already own.

[satviewer2000]

There are already multiple players out there which can play 1080p/720p video in H.264/MKV/XviD/DivX-HD/WMV-HD formats (eg. Tomacro, TviX, Avel, etc). Of course none of these players are made by mainstream companies, so they only have a limited market. If Toshiba were to produce a similar player with these capabilities (and perhaps add in streaming from a computer HDD) then they would certainly have a winner, as they have a much more recognizable name brand.

In any case, Toshiba does have a point. BluRay is not selling even close to what the manufacturers had hoped for even after the demise of HD-DVD, I think primarily because of the persistenly high price of BluRay players. The cost of producing BluRay players will not be coming down anytime soon either, and remember that Sony was subsidizing PS3 units initially to gain market share. So if Toshiba is able to produce a hi-def player with excellent upscaling capability, and at, say, less than 1/2 price of BluRay, then they may still grab a significant market share. After all, in the business world, it's not always about winning it all, it's about market share.

[RLT69]

In any case, Toshiba does have a point. BluRay is not selling even close to what the manufacturers had hoped for even after the demise of HD-DVD, I think primarily because of the persistenly high price of BluRay players. The cost of producing BluRay players will not be coming down anytime soon either, and remember that Sony was subsidizing PS3 units initially to gain market share. So if Toshiba is able to produce a hi-def player with excellent upscaling capability, and at, say, less than 1/2 price of BluRay, then they may still grab a significant market share. After all, in the business world, it's not always about winning it all, it's about market share.

Yup everyone swallowed stupid pills.

This is not a new format. It's taking DVDs and upconverting them to HD.

Big friggin' deal!

It's not HD period. It's simply amazing that people get erections over bleeding edge technology, i.e, HD, but at the same time complain about the cost of the bleeding edge technology and then try to salvage yesterday's technology, i.e. DVD, with gimics and claim it's just as good as the bleeding edge technology.

Barnum was correct, there's a sucker born every minute.

8)

[thecoalman]

Barnum was correct, there's a sucker born every minute.

8)

Yep and barnum made a lot of money.

[DarrellS]

There are already multiple players out there which can play 1080p/720p video in H.264/MKV/XviD/DivX-HD/WMV-HD formats

but none of them are selling for $100 like they were selling their HD-DVD players. The players out there now are in the same price range as Bluray players

[Scooter_NJ]

Unless I missed something, I don't see a 2nd, independent source for this story.

[thecoalman]

Well its all over google search for news on different sites: http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&tab=wn&ned=us&q=toshiba&btnG=Search+News

Haven't really read anything that seemed official though, just speculation and rumor.

[Scooter_NJ]

I saw that...and it's the same article. If Tosh was announcing a new product, I figure more articles would appear from different authors.

[genki500]

Who wants to re-buy their DVD collections again in Blue Ray format? This new "sharper" DVD player actually sounds like a big winner to me.

[thecoalman]

I saw that...and it's the same article. .

Not on all of them. :wink:

[DereX888]

Why am I already so sure Tosh will miserably fail with it (again)

I can already hear Toshboys' cry here year later...
but
anything that hurts Evil Corporation (aka SONY Co.) sales must be GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD

[PuzZLeR]

Source or no source to this story, there is a marketing lesson to be learned here.

All Toshiba has to do is make some sort of arrangement with the DvD Forum and they're back with a serious vengeance if BD is slow out of the post-war gate. Here's how:

The DvD Forum can extend its standards to include:
-H.264 and VC-1 in addition to MPEG-2
-720p and 1080p in addition to the incumbent 720x480/576
-Increase the capacity of the DvD beyond DvD-5, and DvD-9 to DvD-12, DvD-18, DvD-36, etc., which will also include the blanks.

Now we have a "DvD" with updated specs. No, it's NOT an HD disc, or an HD-DvD or something that the public will consider a "new format" which killed HD-DvD and is hurting BD. It's a DvD - the very same product that has sold very well for over 10 years now.

Maybe call it version 2.0? Whatever. It can be done.

They can pitch the consumer market on "new standards modified to meet the needs of the next generation of video" not as a "new format". They are only enhancing an existing item, something that is still very much alive today. Then Toshiba can start selling these new "DvD Players" at much lower costs than blu-ray players.

Listen to me here - they are selling an established line of product, not a "new thing". They are selling DvD players that play DvDs. Sure the specs have been updated, but the public will not be phased by this. Not only that, but they can enhance existing "older" DvDs.

This can work.

Format war restored.

[DarrellS]

Great post, PuzZLer.

[VegasBud]

Now we have a "DvD" with updated specs. No, it's NOT an HD disc...

I don't know about the h.264 and vc-1 part, but other than that, what you're describing actually is hd-dvd (or if you prefer...a version 2.0 dvd-15). Put a blue (405 nm) laser in a dvd device, which lets you increase the data density (more disk capacity) and data rate, and you get a hd-dvd device.

[Marvingj]

If it saves me money I'm all for it...

[PuzZLeR]

Now we have a "DvD" with updated specs. No, it's NOT an HD disc...

I don't know about the h.264 and vc-1 part, but other than that, what you're describing actually is hd-dvd (or if you prefer...a version 2.0 dvd-15). Put a blue (405 nm) laser in a dvd device, which lets you increase the data density (more disk capacity) and data rate, and you get a hd-dvd device.

Technically you are not at all wrong.

But I was talking marketing, and I was getting at was how you sell the consumer mass market. If you are selling them "DvD", then all you're really doing is selling them an established format they've already strongly embraced for years.

Introducing these new specs as a new format automatically generates a reflex against it from the start as was the case with HD-DvD and BD now. Selling them "DvD" with "updated specs" virtually eliminates any intrusiveness of any "new format" among a consumer base typically averse to a change in compatibility - even if technically it is a change in compatibility. The name "DvD" they've built trust on would be enough to ease transition.

This is the position the DvD Forum should have taken from the beginning instead of a perceived violation of a strongly accepted standard and they would have cleanly won the war IMO against the "intruder" blu-ray. This is also a big reason among blu-ray struggles today.

Maybe the DvD Forum figured it out now if it's not too late.

[SatStorm]

They added "unofficially" DivX/XviD support on DVD-Rs. The market demanded that 5 years ago and today is mainstream reality. It became something like an unofficially extension of the DVD Players, which you are not forced to adapt. Those who interest for it, just get the player that supports it. Today, the majority adapted it anyway.

What I see here is the official support of H264 on DVD-Rs. The market demands that today. Personally, I have many DVD-Rs with H264 burned as data. If I only could author them same way and playback them on my TV using a DVD player, it would be great.

If this is true, this is going to be DVD 2.0. And there is a huge market for it.

Toshiba is smart. They gonna present a "standard", a "format" in something that the rest don't care about, since "it is old". Old or not this is gonna be a new standard. And owned 100% by Toshiba.

BD must drop the prices immediately on players / burners / discs!

[lordsmurf]

The bias of the author is so obvious that it's not even worth reading.
http://labs.daylife.com/journalist/simon_burns_in_taipei